Automatic Broadsides and Fixed AI controlled guns in any direction

[Mork2]

Okay you can create a fixed AI control weapon by using a ship dock and docking a bobby AI controlled vessel to it. The AI will engage what is infront of its sub ship only. But since missiles can be launched in other directions and curve around you can put hull infront of the fixed sub craft and it can fire lock on missiles around. And that is normal lock on missiles not just heatseekers. They use to go straight even with computers in other directions but that bug has been fixed.

This makes forward AI controlled fixed guns easy to make since most ship docks are setup so the docked ship orientates forward.
Dock Orientation Main ship - [AI Ship front face relative to the main ship]
Up - [Front and docked ship up is up on main ship]
Left/Right - [Front with up on the docked ship being the direction of the dock on the main ship so left for left]
Down - [Rear with docked ship up being main ships down]
Front - [Down with docked ship up towards main ship front
Rear - [Down with docked ship up being towards main ship rear]

The trick is because of infinite docking of normal ships you can use a mounting docking section to rotate the weapon section in the direction you want.

For instance to make a AI fixed gun to fire left.
- On the left side of the ship build a dock on the main ship facing right. This means that the docking area will be between the docking block and the centre of the ship. Make sure you have cut outs to fire weapons to the left of the docking port but use a hull strip to hold it in place to make it look nice or just leave the docking block hanging. Now if you dock a mounting section into that dock its down direction will be left. So add a internal to the mounting section dock orientated to its front or rear to look down. This will make the weapon section docked so that it will have its AI facing left to the main ship.

Problem is it takes a bit of designing and there is a mounting section that can be killed. But the mounting section can also have additional power supply. But you now have your left broadside weapon that is AI controlled and will auto-engage and target.

The mounting section can have internal docks setup in all directions but only one set of enhancers just link the dock you need to the enhancers.

To make a proper broadside though you will need multiples of these setups cause the AI focus fires all the weapons at one target point. So if you had one big broadside gun system all the weapons would focus fire at one point. But with separate systems they will fire separately and maybe engage different targets etc. It will look a lot more like a proper broadside.

This can give your capital ship weapon coverage in all directions without having weirdly rotated turrets.

This will also make it a lot easier for people to build things like working borg cubes etc....

 

[Comr4de]

I think the biggest issue with broadsides is that people consider them to be actually effective in combat.

The broadside originated in the days of old naval combat. Since ships relied upon the winds to propel them. The led to ships often traveling in the same direction. This is why broadsides worked; you were shooting to the side at a target that was moving to the same direction as you.

You'll start to see the failure of the broadside as an effective tactic with the Battle of Trafalgar. If you look at the deployment of the fleets, you'll see that Admiral Nelson opted to attack head on, braving the broadsides of the French. This gave him two benefits; one, he had the advantage of maneuverability. He was able to close on the target VERY quickly (for that era). His second, most important benefit, was that it reduced the target profile of his fleet.

The battle of trafalgar was a decisive british victory. The outnumbered brits utterly annihilated the French fleet. Let's depart from IRL naval combat and move to.... STARWARS.

This is a star destroyer. Have you ever wondered why imperial vessels were all triangles? It minimizes their target profile while maximizing surface area that can be dedicated to forward firepower. Objectively speaking, Imperial vessels were honestly the best designed. It's the most efficient shape possible for a space warship.

But let's move to another universe (my favorite), yamato. You would think that a universe where the titular ship is LITERALLY a space battleship would talk a lot about broadsides, yes?

WRONG

In the modern world, and certainly in the future to come, the broadside is an outdated, outmoded, and ineffective tactic. I've found that broadsides also suck in skubmade; it's far easier and much more effective to attack head-on.

 

[ResonKinetic]

That helm's a sassy motherfucker.

 

[marcus87]

Forward guns are well and good until your I take two minutes to turn Titan gets attacked from the sides. For people who think gigantic turrets look bad, broadsides are an alternative.

And they are cool

 

[Keptick]

I think the biggest issue with broadsides is that people consider them to be actually effective in combat.

The broadside originated in the days of old naval combat. Since ships relied upon the winds to propel them. The led to ships often traveling in the same direction. This is why broadsides worked; you were shooting to the side at a target that was moving to the same direction as you.

You'll start to see the failure of the broadside as an effective tactic with the Battle of Trafalgar. If you look at the deployment of the fleets, you'll see that Admiral Nelson opted to attack head on, braving the broadsides of the French. This gave him two benefits; one, he had the advantage of maneuverability. He was able to close on the target VERY quickly (for that era). His second, most important benefit, was that it reduced the target profile of his fleet.

The battle of trafalgar was a decisive british victory. The outnumbered brits utterly annihilated the French fleet. Let's depart from IRL naval combat and move to.... STARWARS.

This is a star destroyer. Have you ever wondered why imperial vessels were all triangles? It minimizes their target profile while maximizing surface area that can be dedicated to forward firepower. Objectively speaking, Imperial vessels were honestly the best designed. It's the most efficient shape possible for a space warship.

But let's move to another universe (my favorite), yamato. You would think that a universe where the titular ship is LITERALLY a space battleship would talk a lot about broadsides, yes?

WRONG

In the modern world, and certainly in the future to come, the broadside is an outdated, outmoded, and ineffective tactic. I've found that broadsides also suck in skubmade; it's far easier and much more effective to attack head-on.

That's why the broadsides on my titan can ALSO fire forward. Curving lock on missiles for the win :p. I'd also wish that once the "shift+shift" orbital cam gets reimplemented that broadsides would fire when the POV is tilted at their respective angles of attack. That would actually make broadsides, back guns and such pretty useful.

Before yelling OPPPPPPP please remember that a ship with guns facing in every direction would really slash forward offensive capabilities (or some other attribute) to achieve this goal.

 

[der_scheme]

@Comr4de: While your analysis of how a Star Destroyer's shape affects its combat abilities is right, let me just throw in that Venator-class SDs do in fact have broadsides. You can see that in the battle scene at the beginning of Episode III, where one has a broadside battle with the Invisible Hand (wait for the Wilhelm Scream! 1).

 

[Mork2]

Well one thing a lot of space sci fi and conventional warfare doesn't think about is the ability to roll....Star wars capital ships don't seem to have that in mind. A lot of sci fi doesn't plan around this and conventional warfare stuff is on a planetary surfaces and can't. Most of the examples in sci fi I can think about are novels. Honor Harrington series and Troy or Citadel triology.

If I have fixed weapons facing up, down and both sides I can roll side on to a target. If I had missile batteries they would each get a chance to fire while the others were reloading. Plus they have time to regenerate their individual shields and spread out the damage I'm taking. It also helps against swarming. But your going to burn through a lot of power really fast.

 

[RedDwarfIV]

Honor Harrington has broadsides, but only because of the peculiarities of the ships' drive systems. There are stressed gravity bands over two sides of the ship, through which nothing can pass. Even light gets distorted to the point of uselessness for sensors. Podnoughts act more like modern ships, dropping missile pods that then release missiles, well clear of the drive bands. The Mesan Spider Drive ships act like submarines, having no stressed gravity bands at all. They rely entirely on the stealth their drive provides to survive since they are comparatively very weak craft.

In Starmade meanwhile, turrets basically make broadsides pointless. Really, the only benefit from this that I see is that you might get a few larger than normal lock-on missile launchers fitted.

 

[Lecic]

Honor Harrington has broadsides, but only because of the peculiarities of the ships' drive systems. There are stressed gravity bands over two sides of the ship, through which nothing can pass. Even light gets distorted to the point of uselessness for sensors. Podnoughts act more like modern ships, dropping missile pods that then release missiles, well clear of the drive bands. The Mesan Spider Drive ships act like submarines, having no stressed gravity bands at all. They rely entirely on the stealth their drive provides to survive since they are comparatively very weak craft.

In Starmade meanwhile, turrets basically make broadsides pointless. Really, the only benefit from this that I see is that you might get a few larger than normal lock-on missile launchers fitted.

It can be extremely convenient to have a powerful weapon with it's own power supply that can be mounted UNDERNEATH the main ship hull with just barrel tips sticking out.

You can also make them look a bit nicer than oversized turrets (there are a few that look good, @keptick 's titan comes to mind) that would have the same strength.

 

[El_Poulpy]

@Mork2 that's nice to sharebuilding tips with everyone. you should use picture to illustrate, it would make it easier to understand.

Wasn't there a thread dedicated to building tips ?

What would be cool would be to be able to make turrets that can move along rail to reach every part of the ship like the Hapian dragon in star wars. maybe it could be possible , a little like the tramway someone made but with drone AI and a turret on the wagon.

 

[Mork2]

Unfortunately this concept difficult for me to express even with pictures but here is a demonstrator. If someone requests it I'll add the design to the community content and link it here.

Okay to make sense of these pictures

The white hull with red centre is the main ship. There is blue ice towards the front on the left hand side of the picture and red lights on the tail end on the right. the top of the picture is naturally the top of the ship.

The red C sections with docks are the mounting systems. There is a dock with ice crystal on each side that is the front direction of the mount. The single dock by itself is upside down dock. And the dock next to the core is a up dock. Note on the mounts all the docks are inwards. In each case I have removed the unused docks for each mount so if you don't see a dock between the two ice crystals its because its not being used in that mount.

The guns are grey hull with 4 green lights to the front and 4 red to the rear.

Picture from the side to the front slightly



The left most weapon is just a dock attached to a front facing ship dock to just show the front or rear faces down.

Further along the centre line you have two docks. The one above is a weapon mounted directly to an up dock to face forward. The below one is a underside dock. The weapon is connected to another underside dock on the mount.

As you can see it gets confusing really fast picture or not.

The next set is the trickier one its the left, right, up and down guns. They are radiating out from the central red main ship core area. In each case the main ship dock is facing back towards the core. So the dock on the left side is actually facing right. So when you connect the weapon to the front dock on the mount it faces outwards.



This second picture is from the side to the rear slightly to show the rear facing weapons both the upper version which requires a mounting system. The weapon is on the upside down dock on the mount. The underside version which is just a weapon attached to the underside dock.

This is just some examples there are a lot of other combinations. Also note that you can fire lockon missiles in different directions than the way the green lights are facing. They will then arc around to engage. Its just the AI will only fire at things in the front or in the pictures the green lights direction.

 

[Vakna]

I think the biggest issue with broadsides is that people consider them to be actually effective in combat.

-snipped big post for easier reading-

Whilst your analysis is logically and tactically sound, multi-directional weaponry is in fact an important thing to include on starships. Whilst not classically "broadside" look at ships from, for example, the Star Trek universe. They have multiple side facing torpedo ports, phaser banks etc.. The example in the OP was a Borg Cube - they would be incredibly ineffective in combat if they only had a singular face equipped with weapons. As would all the other Trek ships.

Try not to think of it as broadside guns in the classic sense, but more like multi-directional weaponry that can be used regardless of the enemies position, without compromising your own.

 

[Mork2]

Hmm one of the reasons for this post is I'm rebuilding my current titan. I made a weapon battery. Then a mounting system for it. The actual weapon battery is reversible. As in the weapons extend the entire way through the system, and there is a reverse set of primary computers. So I can just change from one set of primaries and link in the reversed set to existing slave and effect systems. Then set the current outputs to the opposite side. Also massive fixed weapons don't usually look as bad as massive rotated turrets. It wastes some block space but I did notice an unintended benefit.

Due to the way the ship cores in docking ships are docked rather than turrets. Even if I use a docking port on the main ship facing inward the ship core for the weapon mount can end up closest to the main ships core deeply burying it in the hull. You can in some cases do the same with the weapon battery as well.

Since the ship core is centred above the facing of the docking port, in some cases, if your willing to have a area inside the ship devoted to the docking area its possible to bury the cores deeply. Sometimes you can bury them deeply without the waste space. Also gives you room to use a small ship to move around inside.....

With the latest post that their working on making beam weapons point defence and eventually point defence AI being usable as point defence against missiles, I guess its time to make mini fixed beam/cannon systems a 9x9x9 mounting system and a 7x7x7 point defence weapons as well. Weapon systems always get adjusted to technology changes like the real world somewhat . Might also need to increase salvo density to overwhelm point defence.

 

[Keptick]

Hmm one of the reasons for this post is I'm rebuilding my current titan. I made a weapon battery. Then a mounting system for it. The actual weapon battery is reversible. As in the weapons extend the entire way through the system, and there is a reverse set of primary computers. So I can just change from one set of primaries and link in the reversed set to existing slave and effect systems. Then set the current outputs to the opposite side. Also massive fixed weapons don't usually look as bad as massive rotated turrets. It wastes some block space but I did notice an unintended benefit.

Due to the way the ship cores in docking ships are docked rather than turrets. Even if I use a docking port on the main ship facing inward the ship core for the weapon mount can end up closest to the main ships core deeply burying it in the hull. You can in some cases do the same with the weapon battery as well.

Since the ship core is centred above the facing of the docking port, in some cases, if your willing to have a area inside the ship devoted to the docking area its possible to bury the cores deeply. Sometimes you can bury them deeply without the waste space. Also gives you room to use a small ship to move around inside.....

With the latest post that their working on making beam weapons point defence and eventually point defence AI being usable as point defence against missiles, I guess its time to make mini fixed beam/cannon systems a 9x9x9 mounting system and a 7x7x7 point defence weapons as well. Weapon systems always get adjusted to technology changes like the real world somewhat . Might also need to increase salvo density to overwhelm point defence.

A beam anti-missile PD system you say?

 

[NeonSturm]

--- WARNING: UNHOLY POST IN PROGRESS ---

Thrusters at the rear is outdated !!!

You should make a defensive ship like this:
. . . H . T T T T T T T T T T T . . . .
. . H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H .
. H H T T T D D D - R R R W W C C C H H
H H H T T D D D D - R R W W W C C C H H H
H H H T T D D D D C R R W W W W W W H H H H
H H H T T D D D D - R R W W W C C C H H H
. H H T T T D D D - R R R W W C C C H H
. . H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H H .
. . . H . T T T T T T T T T T T . . . .

H = Hull
C = Capacitors (( Put them behind, because if they are empty and you run, they are the systems you need the least ))
R = Rechargers (shield + power) because that you wanna keep safe.
T inner = Trusters/Warp (( Put them in front, because if you run, you need them the most ))
T outer = Turrets. (( There they can cover 1/2 a sphere and fire to front/rear/sides all ))
D - = docking + RP area (( if enhancers get hit, you may suffer a lot of collision damage!!! ))
C = core
W = weapons

(( should have some stop-beam-beams (facing rear) to allow you the escape.
&& they should also be in centre with just a small line leading rear - if the weapon gets cut in many pieces, it will cost a lot more power to fire due to multiple arrays per computer ))​

Offensive should not be build much different, because they can either win with shields up or never having engaged the fight. Or run away (= look at defensive setup above again)[DOUBLEPOST=1411255958,1411254862][/DOUBLEPOST]Please also remember this:

: T : . . . . . : T :
T D - - . . . - - D T
: - - - H H H - - - :
. - - H - - - H - -
. . H - - - - - H
. . H - - C - - H
. . H - - - - - H
. - - H - - - H - -
: - - - H H H - - - :
T D - - . . . - - D T
: T : . . . . . : T :

H = Hull and heavy (short range) weapon mounts
C = a core which is >1km or >2km away from the perimeter (thus out of most weapon's ranges)

D = Sniper platforms. Very Net/Grid-Like to make most shots aimed at it miss and expire before they reach the core.
: = triple-axis sniper turret (T) fire arc

 

[Mork2]

Okay that's weird. But after some testing. I was creating a broadside gun. So left side of ship docking port facing right. Mounting system setup with L shape and a front mounted dock for the weapon. But when placing the weapon with the weapon computer in the front direction which is now the main ships left side, when I manually fire the beam goes forward for the mounting system not the weapon which is down for the main ship. In the picture you can clearly see the beam computer. I just found out the default cursor position is down and off screen if you move it far enough it appears on screen and you can fire normally.



But when I added an AI bobby it only engages in the correct direction. as shown below even though it manually starts targeting in a different direction.



And controlled missile arc around normally. Manually locking up a target is weird but for AI controlled purposes it works.



Anyway it works for AI just not so well for players.

I usually add the docking enhancers under the turret. The assumption is the turret will usually be dead before the enhancers get hit. Neonsturm's post is making me re-think about layouts. Though my titans are far to slow to run away. So keeping the jump drives alive is very important....

Hull blocks absorb double the amount of hit points damage from missiles. Some system blocks only have 25hp so 1 hardened hull block absorbs the damage that would destroy 32 system blocks. Normal hull blocks around 267hp of damage absorbed so 10 system blocks. All those RP crew decks made of hardened or normal hull now act as a missile damage sink.....

 

[DrTarDIS]

Well one thing a lot of space sci fi and conventional warfare doesn't think about is the ability to roll...your going to burn through a lot of power really fast.

yeah 3d combat seems wasted on a lot of people. I'm just thinking of Kirk taking out Kahn from the Y axis....

That being said, rolling a ship in combat with oriented fixed weaponry OR turrets (both of which seem to track things out of their firing arc too often anyways) is a great damage-spread and cooldown management tactic on anything but a tiny ship.

Thumbs up for educating the unwashed masses.

 

[NeonSturm]

Hull blocks absorb double the amount of hit points damage from missiles. Some system blocks only have 25hp so 1 hardened hull block absorbs the damage that would destroy 32 system blocks. Normal hull blocks around 267hp of damage absorbed so 10 system blocks. All those RP crew decks made of hardened or normal hull now act as a missile damage sink.....

+ Damage decreases over range. A missile which would one-shot even hull, could now waste damage on overkill vs systems in doom-cubes before hitting the parts which matter (regenerative, not power and shield tanks).

yeah 3d combat seems wasted on a lot of people. I'm just thinking of Kirk taking out Kahn from the Y axis....

If you have multiple ships (in an convoy or squad of 2-4 ships for example), you should cover 4 directions with 2 turrets and 1 direction with just the top/bottom or left/right.

your flank will have 2 ships = 2*2 turrets = 4 fighting.
your top will have number-ships = 4 turrets fighting.
Optimal coverage.

If you want optimal coverage alone, you may think about building 4 equally sized turrets top/bot and left/right. this gives you 3/4 dps in all directions and 4/4 front/rear.
Pulse or smaller turrets could cover your close distance anti-fighter weakness.