Armor Buffing by Adjacent Armor Blocks Redux

[petlahk]

Introduction

Several years ago I suggested this (or something similar) for the first time. It was somewhat ignored and argued against. I think people didn't like it in part because it was in the heat of debate about how to fix armor the first time, and in part because what I had proposed was something similar to what Scypio has recently suggested (Armor scaling with mass) in that it was a skin and was based on total number of armor blocks on the ship and was a massively complex calculation.

It is my understanding that there are a few reasons why the devs will not, and possibly cannot, code an armor system into the game that relies on total number of armor blocks. The first reason being that it's really tough to balance. Formulas are hard to tweak to be just right, and they hide information from the players which just makes it more complicate. The second reason is because traditionally the game had trouble keeping track of an armor specific block count. (Though I don't know how much that applies now.)

Maybe the following idea isn't technically feasible due to how the game has always had the hardest trouble with adjacency calculations, however I think that it's easier to calculate than missile damage and is - out of all of the various armor suggestions - possibly one of the simplest implementations.

The Proposal

Armor blocks should simply give a basic buff to each adjacent armor block. The check wouldn't be checking diagonals, only straight faces.

The buff could be a .01% addition to armor for each adjacent armor block of any kind and/or each armor block could add it's base HP to each adjacent armor block.

Armor Buff

With an armor buff of 0.1% for each adjacent armor block no armor block would ever reach higher than 96% armor. Advanced armor is only 90% armor and a block only has 6 faces. It wouldn't do much to make hull or standard armor any good, however it would still help.

HP Buff

Barring each block having both an adjacency-based armor and HP buff I think this is the best solution. Each adjacent armor block would simply add it's base HP to the adjacent armor blocks. So, an armor block would could only ever have 700 HP (Itself + 6 adjacent armor blocks.). Practically speaking, an armor block would only ever have 600 HP considering that a block has to be destroyed to get to interior blocks.

It would be necessary to decide whether or not to add the adjacency buff to AHP. I personally don't think it should be.

HP and Armor Buff

I think this would really make armor worthwhile. Though, I would understand concerns about needing to deal 600 damage with 96% armor each to each block in two layers of triple layered advanced armor. This would really make armor worthwhile. Armor would *act* like armor, and thicker armor would have the added benefit of strength.

Conclusion

I would like to end this with the note that I am well aware that although the calculation for each armor block wouldn't be that much of a strain, it would be a strain to need to calculate it for missile strikes. I would also like to note that depending on what the weapons update does any of these suggested buffs may or may not make armor stronger or even still fit within the system. However, I don't think the weapon update will change weapon damage that drastically.

I would appreciate it if people would discuss this. Please keep it civil. And, please keep in mind that I am trying to find a simple solution, not a complex one, as based on Murphy's law.

 

[GDPR 302420]

Even with your HP and Armor Buff, this suggestion simply isnt enough to make armor usefull as a defence, currently its too easy to make weapons that will evaporate any armor.

The big problem with flat buffs to armor blocks is that those buffs will become next to useless as ships get larger, they might be overpowered for a small 500 mass fighter and next to useless for a large titan, this is because weapons currently scale much better then defences and one thing you will come to know when you get into meta PvP building is that you don't need that large of a weapon to evaporate armor as opposed to one to evaporate shields.

This honestly feels like a lazy solution and above all a solution that will not address the problems with armor.

 

[petlahk]

The big problem with flat buffs to armor blocks is that those buffs will become next to useless as ships get larger

Perhaps, but keep in mind that the weapons curve tapers off toward the end, and that the power update makes it a lot harder to maintain really high-teir weapons. Also keep in mind that the weapons update is coming out soon even though I don't think it will do much for the weapons.

will come to know when you get into meta PvP building is that you don't need that large of a weapon to evaporate armor as opposed to one to evaporate shields.

I know that armor is weak. It doesn't require much to realize this, you don't need to be a dedicated PVP player and neither does anyone else.

This honestly feels like a lazy solution and above all a solution that will not address the problems with armor.

There is no such thing as a "lazy" solution. I do think that there exists a solution that is simple and effective. And, overall, if you think about it, 500 HP per block is A LOT of damage for a block to soak up before it is broken. Especially 500 HP per block at 96% armor for advanced armor. There's two parts to armor, HP and the percentage of damage blocked.

After crunching some numbers and doing some mucking about. Yeah. I see your point, it's gonna break down at higher levels. But, in that case, shouldn't this be an argument against the way weapons scale instead of the way armor scales?

The other armor solutions have either been shot down by the developers (Not taking damage until AHP is at 0%) or involve a lot of obtuse and arbitrary math.

As far as I'm concerned simpler is better and it would be simpler to make weapons scale better and implement this than to try to count every armor block on a ship.

What I've learned from this thread is less "armor is bad" and more "weapons are too strong."

 

[JNC]

Since armor scaling was mentioned in today's Power 2.0 update and the future Weapons Update I got to looking around and figured this would be better than me making a whole new post about it.

How about damage dispersion?

Seems the problem is that we're trying to make individual blocks really strong without being overpowered... so how about, instead, some kind of damage dispersion is implemented? Incoming damage to armor is spread out perpendicular to impact. Basic armor could have a smaller area than advanced armor and if the armor is more than 1 layer thick than the dispersion could be 3D as well.

Penetration effects could act to minimize how much damage is dispersed, which would result in the projectile poking holes in the ship again instead of mushing against the armor plating.

 

[MacThule]

I think that we have problems with both weapon scaling and cardboard armor.

AA & SA both need a damage resistance boost. Perpendicular dispersal with piercing effect to offset would be great, but it's been suggested several times; I don't think it's feasible for the engine. Adjacency or layering bonuses would be cool.

Thay said, none of these make sense to look too seriously at until we see what the weapon update looks like and if weapons will be rebalanced in a useful way (like if they're designed with actual full consideration of defense-offense balance, counters, buff-debuff options and the like ahead of time, not just setting the figures the trying to balance armor, shields and effects around that).

 

[JNC]

So.... shields, what are they and why are they so useful?

- Shields are a non block based HP pool that must be depleted (almost entirely) before any physical damage can be done to blocks below.
- Armor are physical blocks AND an HP pool.

Until the shield pool is gone nothing is being damaged and that's why they're so great! WELL, I was thinking about real armor in ships/tanks (never mind the fact there aren't HP bars in RL) and it does the same thing!.... to a degree. Increased armor thickness combined with different levels of hardness results in an outer layer that's very resistant to penetration (shots ricochet) and a softer inner layer that absorbs impact and supports the hard shell (so it doesn't crack/spall)... err, i suppose that's the idea anyway.

Real armor, that is hit with shells too weak to penetrate, can be dented or marred to varying degrees while still providing a high degree of protection; only once a shell has reached the required energy levels does it defeat the armor... true, repeated weaker hits in the same spot will eventually penetrate (more on this below) we're left with a true/false... does incoming shell have the required energy to defeat armor yes/no. If it doesn't you're "safe".

Currently, Starmade armor is a disjointed HP pool, and individual blocks... both are damaged together so the first hit to the ship is your strongest defense, after that everything gets weaker. REMOVE THE GLOBAL ARMOR HP POOL and instead place a locally calculated one at every outermost armor block, determined by its linear buddies as suggested by Petlahk. The outermost block is buffed by each armor block behind it, creating a damage threshold (minimum amount of damage that must be done to the block before a shell can penetrate to the blocks behind it) and increasing its base HP. Once this minimum damage level is met, than all that damage is done as it normally would be... the big difference here is that there is a threshold. This would mean that the outermost layer of your armor would, in effect, function as a shield layer ALBEIT a non-regenerating, comparatively low HP, locally calculated shield layer. Hits to the armor that fall below the damage threshold will still damage the outer block (think dents and such) but at a very reduced amount (90% reduced maybe?), so repeated weak hits in the same area would eventually defeat the armor.

Another VERY IMPORTANT factor to functional armor, are detailed damage profiles for weapons (which is being worked on). For example, a high explosive bomb may have a very strong EXPLOSIVE damage profile but it has very little KINETIC penetration vs hardened armor.... so if you wanted a missile/bomb/mine to do any significant damage to armor, it would have to be givin enough kinetic/heat damage to penetrate the armor threshold, only then could it explode and create a nice crater.... think APHE / HEAT / HESH shells... if it isnt than it'll just mar that fresh paint job. Lasers would / should be very effective vs armor as the heat threshold is lower than kinetic and lasers do constant, lock-on, damage that would pen/deplete the outer shell quick-ish.

Here's what we have:
- Every individual outermost armor block is buffed by armor behind it, linearly
- Every individual outermost armor block has a damage threshold (of a kinetic/heat element) before it can be penetrated
- Penetrating shots do full damage to outer block, with its buffed HP pool, then the normal HP blocks behind it, as usual.
- Weak shots instead do 90-95% reduced dmg to only the outermost block/s.
- Outer armor is blast resistant as explosions typically have comparatively low kinetic element

--->With sufficient balancing<--- I feel that this would give armor a more natural feel and make it a meaningful defense as the blocks will not be damaged/destroyed right away, even vs high output weapons, unless those weapons are designed to deal with armor by having the required kin/heat amounts, and because it is mechanically similar to shields while still offering a different but effective defense... also similar concepts could be applied and should be understood... such as "hot spots", ha, actually this one probably fits armor better as it seems more fitting for hot area of armor to be weaker due to repeated hits or such..... Oh, and on further thought, the 'outer armor block' is only the "as built" outer block... every subsequent block behind it, that is revealed through damage, does not become the new 'outer armor block'. To save on game calculations, perhaps this process could be added as a function of the ship reboot? Once you've finished a ship you'd reboot it, this armor stuff would be calculated and saved, and not calculated again until another reboot is performed.

P.S
This would make delayed/prioritized weapon effects useful so that specialized explody weapons arent wasted against the hardest armor (for example apply kin damage | delay 200ms | apply explosive damage)

P.P.S
This would allow salvage lasers to be a weapon too...... as effects cannot be applied to them (kin/heat/em) they would do nothing to an armored ship, but could function as a weak laser vs hull only ships :D

 

[Zoolimar]

Currently, Starmade armor is a disjointed HP pool, and individual blocks... both are damaged together so the first hit to the ship is your strongest defense, after that everything gets weaker. REMOVE THE GLOBAL ARMOR HP POOL and instead place a locally calculated one at every outermost armor block, determined by its linear buddies as suggested by Petlahk. The outermost block is buffed by each armor block behind it, creating a damage threshold (minimum amount of damage that must be done to the block before a shell can penetrate to the blocks behind it) and increasing its base HP.

Isn't latest versions dealt away with armour HP pool and instead check for the number of blocks on the path of the projectile/beam?