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    Appeal to the Council: A Noisy Niche

    Discussion in 'Council' started by Valiant70, Nov 19, 2016.

    1. Valiant70

      Valiant70 That crazy cyborg

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      The long-standing debate about fuel has mostly faded from the dock. Why? I think all the survival players got bored with Starmade and went back to modded Minecraft. That's pretty much what I did. Starmade's community is not large, and I think this is due partly to the excessive influence of a specific niche of players who make a lot of noise on the dock. This is what brought me here, to the council forum.

      The council was meant to act as a bridge between Schine and the players, although it seems a specific manner of player has been favored excessively in development. Time and again we have been assured that Schine has no plans to add fuel, ammunition, food, or even limited oxygen to the game, while in fact these sorts of things are just what the game needs to open up to a larger audience. Players who are adamantly against consumable resources are a majority because the game has failed to attract others. The success of Minecraft and the fact that everyone doesn't just run around in creative mode should be demonstration enough that survival gameplay is attractive to many gamers.

      What I'm trying to say is this: Starmade is looking pretty good now, and there's a lot to come in its future based on the looks of the development roadmap. However, the game's untapped potential is blocked by the current, small, niche community. I really like Starmade and I think it has more potential than Minecraft ever did, but I'm bored with the current game and my preferences for what makes a great game are being ignored. I'll be back later. I'm going to play Minecraft.
       
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    2. IG-1000

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      Minecraft.....Miiiiiiiiinnnnnnneeeeeecccccrrrrraaaaafffftttttt.................

      10830654_1532879387000111_4482375647733028435_o.jpg

      Idk how anybody could go back to playing Minecraft after playing this game even Modded Minecraft which imo is god awful...
       
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    3. terra mining corp.

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      ^ you know it!!! and with the factions update minecraft is history
       
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    4. Batavium

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      Food and stamina are just another life gauge. Fun for a while but then it becomes bothersome to keep it up. I played Minecraft since like it first came out mostly survival. Yeah growing your own food was nice but ultimately it holded you back and became a major time sink. I rather fight the Creepers and stuff without my stamina running out.

      StarMade already has major time sinks. Getting all the raw ore, credits, factories. And space is harsh very harsh. StarMade defiantly doesn't need another way to die. That is what is keeping people from playing this game. It is way to harsh and complex. Loose your stuff right out of spawn and you might as well stop playing. And everything needs a Known way of doing things with hundreds of exceptions. The learning curve is very steep.

      In Minecraft you spawn in an often lush green world. Where you can Monkey around and learn as you go along. In Starmade you spawn in the Void the emptiness of space. With nothing around apart from a shop if you even get that it's a shop. Move a little further and you don't even get a hint on how to access the damn shop because you moved to far away for B to light up. And now with Fog of War there really is nothing to go by. If there is a Pirate Station close to spawn then all the noobs can do is DIE.


      Consumables as a server option that can be turned On and Off? Sure. As an addition to the basic game? Hell No!


      And I build castles in Minecraft all day any day all of Dirt! In survival with creepers! No flying and I had to dig out every Dirt block from underground to not spoil the landscape around the castles.

      God of Dirt
       
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    5. IG-1000

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      Well the major difference between Starmade and Minecraft is that one is for children and the other is not...
       
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    6. Batavium

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      Minecraft wasn't for children either. In early Beta I always played with other adults.

      But they had kids.....

      And the kids stole daddies credit card....

      And they told all the their little friends.....

      And then all the Dirt Castles got TnT.....

      The End
       
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    7. Valiant70

      Valiant70 That crazy cyborg

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      If all you do is build, Minecraft is garbage. This is the majority of the Starmade community because the rest went back to Minecraft.

      Oh, Starmade could make history of minecraft to be sure, but it won't, not without major changes in the way it's being approached. Schine will have to appeal to a larger audience than the whiny Starmade Dock. It can be done, but more will be needed than the NPC update.

      The reason to have things like food, fuel, and air is to further drive conflict and increase the risks. There are lots and lots of gamers who like that. Hey, we need more Xray-luminescent Plant-thing for the life support system because what we gathered last week is starting to run out. Oh, uh, yeah, this stingy-butt NPC faction popped up and took over the planet where we got it. Now we have to find more or steal it from them instead. On top of that, the Scavengers want to eat us as usual... Welcome to hell. STARMADE NEEDS THIS GAME MODE. I can't emphasize that enough.

      If Schine doesn't add it, and the game and its community survive long enough to see a modding API, nodders will add it. Surviving that long is an "IF" though. People I know who used to love this game are getting tired of it and quitting left and right. A new appeal is needed and soon. The NPC update will at least buy time, but more is needed and in a direction I do not believe development is currently aimed.

      This is actually kind of a problem with the current iteration of Starmade, and something that Schine has (thankfully) recognized and plans to address in the future. The startup flavor of Starmade needs to be changed up. People need to spawn with something there. That will eventually come in the form of that massive new spawn station that was showcased a while back. However, even this will not kill Minecraft or even grab a fraction of its player base.

      Starmade lacks the immersion that Minecraft has for one thing. Expanding astronaut gameplay will happen and will have an effect, but without that resource management and survival aspect, we won't be taking over Minecraft's market any time soon. Starmade should not copy minecraft or any of the mods too closely, but it needs to bring the same sort of challenges that, for example, the Galacticraft mod introduces. Begin on a planet or something easy, where you can operate easily and spend five minutes picking up food that'll last hours. Progress from that to short sojourns into space before returning to ground zero to re-supply. The bother of resupplying will drive players to find new ways to obtain the necessary supplies through trade, manufacture, etc. and so players progress into mid-late game where the large scale strategy happens. Supplies become relevant again in late game NOT because your personal avatar doesn't have enough to eat and breathe, but because you're trying to feed the crew of an entire fleet, requiring large scale infrastructure that could ideally be run by either players or NPCs.

      If Schine smells the bacon, they'll be the end of Minecraft. Otherwise, they'll remain a small niche or fizzle out five years down the road.
      --- Updated post (merge), Nov 19, 2016, Original Post Date: Nov 19, 2016 ---
      Neither game was for children. Minecraft just happens to start out simple enough that six year olds can figure out how to blow stuff up. If Starmade started out that simple, PVP servers would just get some extra cannon fodder.
       
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    8. Comr4de

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      Tbh I agree about fuel. The infinite energy in starmade has always bugged the hell out of me. There's zero upkeep cost for ships you own beyond repairs needed from combat damage. I'm sick to death of hearing people whine about how fuel and oxygen would ruin the game. At the very least, some sort of fuel consumption to use FTL systems would go a long way to solving the problem of giant battleships with zero upkeep.

      I do agree with others about food and oxygen, skub is already deadly enough. We don't need to put ANOTHER life gauge on there.
       
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    9. Valiant70

      Valiant70 That crazy cyborg

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      Fuel for ships, food and/or oxygen for large crews. They're two sides of the same coin really, or at least they will be when boarding actually works.

      There ARE players who want another life gauge though, so that needs to remain an option. Starmade could lend itself well to two major play styles, which could be called Sandbox and Survival. Sandbox is where you're building corporations and empires and so forth. Survival is where you're fighting to stay alive in an overwhelmingly big universe and keep the engines lit and the life support running. Both have their merits and neglecting either severely gimps Starmade's potential. With some clever work, these could co-exist in one game mode, but they wouldn't have to.
       
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    10. Raisinbat

      Raisinbat Raging Troll

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      Is there any part of a game you don't consider a timesink? No, space is not harsh, it's full of resources and planets and everything requires zero effort to get to. HARSH AND COMPLEX??? You have FUCKING NOTHING bothering you! You can go wherever you want instantly if you buy a jump drive with your starting money, pirates are too stupid and useless to threaten anything, they can't even move anymore, so you can just fly away on the offchance a pirate shows up. You do have a point that complexity is keeping players away; that's why games like space engineers are vastly more popular. Because they're less complicated. Than Starmade.

      Are you fucking kidding me; you spawn in starmade you can sit at that shop forever and you'll never die. Pull the same thing in minecraft and you die night 1. Lush planet FULL OF ZOMBIES, CREEPERS AND SPOOPY SKELLINGTONS. You have everything you need in starmade to go wherever you want forever, just pick a direction and start flying, you'll find everything you need. And if you want anything else in addition you can just buy it at the damn shop. You seem to have confused being a completely brainless n00b with being dificult, while in minecraft you have ZERO tutorial explaining what to do, or even what the game is about. I'm not saying minecraft is dificult but neither is fucking starmade, they're just terrible at introducing players and once you know what you're doing getting started is pisseasy in both games.

      Do you only fuck around in creative mode? The difference is the same difference between starmade and space engineers, starmade and don't starve, starmade and ARK or really starmade vs any other sandbox game out there:

      In every other game what you build MATTERS. It serves a fucking purpose. Built a farm in minecraft? Food is easy now! Tamed an ankylosaurus in ARK? Mining faster now! Made a welding ship in space engineers? Building faster now! The only thing to build in starmade that matters in the same way are miners and factories; factories being so easy you can process millions of items within your first couple of hours, and once you're eating asteroids in ~3 seconds, what does a bigger miner even help?

      I've shown 6 of my friends starmade and none of them fucking care, because there's nothing to do in the actual game part. And here's the fucking kicker:

      You can't progress in starmade, because everything is easily available and there are no obstacles. What you're calling timesinks are obstacles to be overcome. It's more ships to make, stations to build, resources to pursue, all of which would actually matter if it was a part of the game.

      waaay ahead of you bro.
      [​IMG]
       
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    11. IG-1000

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      I've played Minecraft too...and it's boring, the fact of the matter is that in Minecraft all you do is forage for food and resources and build houses and castles and other non functional things that you pretend work like Nuclear reactors. Whereas Starmade has a lot more to it a lot more intricacies to building stuff, it has a lot more features I guess is what I'm driving at.

      And no it's not easy gathering resources even with a giant Miner because Asteroids still only yield so much and so do planets so unless you want to spend an entire day mining for resources...I mean I can't even count the number of times where I have not had enough Hattel to make Cannons or enough Sapsun/Parsen to make Shields Finding resources is more difficult I feel in Starmade than it is in Minecraft, because in Minecraft all you have to do is a dig hole and what do you know? Resources....

      And as far as adventuring goes Minecraft is a finished Game Starmade is nowhere near being Finished...
       

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    12. Batavium

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      You started playing StarMade in 2014. Like most of us you evolved with the game. A noob doesn't know this. And on most servers spawn is the most hostile place to be or to escape even when protected. Not because of Pirates but because of other Players.

      Noob: What's a jump drive? How do I spawn a Core? WTF am i even supposed to do here?

      I feel your pain! You were around when this game still had HOSTILE SIGHTED and then they jumped you. And stations sectors away even unloaded would send out Pirate waves to attack you. Very simple ai just beline for you and back again. If there were miners in the wave then they would bump into your base. Fiddle around a bit and fly back out again. And when was the last time you seen a server where the admin set some nice custom Pirates?

      I gues you never played Multi player. Other people are what makes this game great. The thrill of the hunt. The jumping up and down your seat when you found someone and open up with all your weapons on said target. Priceless.

      Yes in Minecraft you die and learn from it. Then you restart get past that point and die again. And you respawn again. And again. And again.

      But now StarMade. You die and loose your ship. You respawn o shit no blocks in my inventory because my ship got shot out there. O crap no credits because i just bought some stuff before. No blocks no credits and nothing else at spawn. Stupid game might as well quit.
       
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    13. Calhoun

      Calhoun Part-time God

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      I'd actually like an Oxygen system in starmade. You can handwavium infinite power fairly easily, but no Oxygen is a different story.

      Plus it actually gives a purpose to interiors.
       
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    14. IG-1000

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      And helmets, they just slightly boost your health atm right? IDK I never use the helmet anyways
       
    15. DukeofRealms

      DukeofRealms Count Duku

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      This is where we stand now, this will no doubt change as we progress through large updates.

      Fuel: Maybe, it's something we talk about on occasion.
      Ammunition: No.
      Food: No for individual player survival, yes for crew management.
      Oxygen: It's complicated, the biggest barrier would be ensuring it doesn't impact performance. For example, calculating whether a ship has a leak. Re-calculating when blocks are removed. It's something we want, but no plans yet.

      All of these require additional core systems to be in place first, for example the Crew update. None of these are very high on the priority list, NPCs, AI, Factions and Quests are far more important. Some of what you have listed might end up being components of other updates, they will be addressed at some point, in some cases, maybe sooner rather than later.

      We will survive that long.

      Already on the plans.

      Planned.

      Minecraft is the end of Minecraft. StarMade is not and will never be Minecraft. If you're looking for literal "Minecraft in space" you won't find that here. The Minecraft modding community can achieve that, one of our developers has a popular Minecraft space mod, check that out here: Galacticraft 3.0.12 [6,400,000+ Downloads!] - Minecraft Mods - Mapping and Modding - Minecraft Forum - Minecraft Forum
       
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    16. Valiant70

      Valiant70 That crazy cyborg

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      Okay, that's better than I thought. Last I knew it was a flat "NO." Thank you for considering more than one bland play style.
      I'd recommend some option for the individual player to need food on occasion. There are players who find this interesting. Isn't Starmade all about configurability?
      Would MicDoodle's approach that he used for oxygen sealers in Galacticraft be too computationally-heavy? The main concern would be stuff getting depressurized in battle, and usually all that takes is one weapon impact and a whole compartment goes without need for much additional computation.

      The question is not whether the game will exist, but whether it will have a following outside of 100 or so active forum members. My main caution to everyone on the team is to think about play styles that don't make much noise on the forums, like hardcore survival junkies, micro-managers, people who don't enjoy building or operating anything over 500 mass, and even those who would rather run around on foot or man a turret than sit at the ship's controls. The long-term impact on the player base will be extremely severe if such players are completely left out. As long as you don't take the player base for granted, things will be fine.

      I'm already playing that, and it's fun, but it's far more limited than Starmade. Micdoodle's space stations are rather impressive, but beyond that there's no comparison. Everything in Minecraft is fundamentally constrained to a smaller scale than Starmade. What I'm trying to get at is that Starmade should not neglect the smaller scale that resembles Minecraft, or the struggle for survival on that scale. To do so would throw a very large potential player base out the window. Starmade's scope is broader, but it needs depth to match its breadth if you know what I mean.

      I know Minecraft players who are not as much builders as they are adventurers. To bring them to Starmade, you'll need places they can effectively land and go dungeon-diving. It's scenarios like that where small-scale survival can really come to life. I also know some who like to hang around base optimizing enchanted equipment and micro-managing animal farms and monster grinders to produce lots of experience for enchanting. Got any fun ideas for that sort of play style? Some sort of research and development for personal equipment perhaps?

      What I mean by making history of Minecraft is not literally putting the game out of business. What I mean is encompassing more than Minecraft can ever hope to, and overshadowing it in terms of what the game offers and the range of gamers it appeals to rather than in terms of actual copies purchased or number of players.
       
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    17. IG-1000

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      There should be a wider variety of Planetary buildings and structures other than weird looking Cities and Pyramids (are those even in the game still?)

      I'm thinking some cool Halo-esc Ruins would be awesome
       
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    18. Raisinbat

      Raisinbat Raging Troll

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      Can't speak for Valiant, but i was thinking it would be more like having an oxygen tank on your ship that's just a cargo hold for oxygen, that crew consumes oxygen from. Considering even realism extraordinaire space engineers has abandoned oxygen simulation because nobody was using it there's probably no point for starmade adding a similar system.

      Why? What would quests give that people would want? There's nothing in the game to want right now, and you're not adding anything with any of these additions so why would anyone want to interact with them? Quests are a shitty bandaid, focus on making a fun game instead.
       
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    19. godmars

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      ...something to do, which i'm pretty sure is what everyone wants

      They've been saying over and over that NPCs are going to play a huge part in things to come.
      you can't say that for certain, unless you are perhaps a time traveler, in that case i rescind my statement
       
    20. Raisinbat

      Raisinbat Raging Troll

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      There are plenty of things "to do" in starmade, but they don't matter, why would quests matter simply for being called quests? You do understand these wont be epic storylines with characters and unique locations but generic ass fetch and combat quests, no?

      For comparison i made a farm in minecraft -> farm lets me produce food easily. I made an apiary that makes honey and lets me breed trees. I made a quarry that provides ores and building materials, a brewery that gives me wonderful buffs and an alchemical machine that converts wood to clay. All of these things impact the game and i'm better off after making them. Nothing in starmade, except miners and big factories which are dirt cheap to reach a practical limit with, impacts your game in any meaningful way. Quests cannot improve the game because there are no variables to improve and quests arent variables themselves.

      I have a magic oven i got at a yardsale that when you sit in it allows you to travel into the future at a rate of 1 second per second. Even room for passengers.

      To be fair NPCs MIGHT work as this, but that's if they're crew.
       
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