An (untested) idea for backup shielding

[Stormraven]

Hi everybody! I'm a long time lurker here, but this is my first time actually posting anything.

I've been contemplating modular ships, and the issues with shielding that they present. The idea I had, which I plan to test out later today, is creating docked shield modules that make use of the Forcefield blocks.

Here's my thinking:
Docked entities can share up to 50%(?) of the host ship's shields, but it's only one way. Thus a 'shield module' that docks to the main ship isn't really going to do anything but take up space.

However, forcefields are low weight, and count as part of the ship in regards to shield protection. So the question I'm hoping to answer is: If I used a shield module that was docked INSIDE another ship, which could use logic sensors to detect when the host ship's shields got too low, could I activate a 'bubble' of forcefield blocks and start taking hits to the (still fully charged) docked shields via the FF blocks while the primary shield recharges?

If anyone has input on this, I'd love to hear it. Failing that, I'll test it out today and share my finding here for anyone who's interested.

 

[terra mining corp.]

I've been using force fields and blast doors as assult armor for awile and it works ok,but I like your logic twist on it,let us know how it works out(if I don't run tests first

 

[Tydeth]

If I recall correctly, a docked entity's shields take the hit before the mothership's. It goes something like this:

Docked Entity has been hit! Check shields. If enough, they take the damage. If not, they look at their docking host. If that host has more than 25% shields, it takes the hit. Otherwise, look up the chain to the mothership for shields to deduct from. If the mothership and any intermediaries don't have the shields to take that hit, the docked entity takes block/armor damage.

Thus, a docked armor such as this would protect the ship for as long as it has shields. This may be useful against long-reload anti-shield alpha weapons like a beam-pulse-ion, but once the enemy can break through the docked shields, the mothership's shields are once again under fire until they're down to 25%, at which point the force fields will provide a bit of protection as armor until missiles hit.

There is one major problem with this idea: It blocks YOUR weapons as well. If you make the force fields a Star Trek styled bubble shield, you're not hitting anything while they're doing their thing, and neither can your AMS. If you go for a more hull-hugging design that leaves space for turrets and your ship's main guns, you have weak spots in your shield and you run the same risk as other docked armor when the rail dock is popped: Server-busting lag from constant collision checks.

 

[Scypio]

Good idea, however this start to be usable when the added blocs on the mothership doesn't give enough shield compared to the added shield by the backup shield and logic behind. Comes pretty quickly but shields need to be strong enough to be useful.

Also note that docked hull use the same mechanic and that you can't protect your ship from everywhere because otherwise you and your turrets can't shoot through.

 

[Igfig]

This sounds like a really neat idea. I'd love to see your results.

 

[Stormraven]

ALRIGHTY!
So I did some super basic testing on this idea and discovered (surprisingly) that this mostly works.

Here's the basics:
As long as the FF blocks are deactivated, any and all weapons and beams can pass through them without incident. This includes docked weapons like turrets as well as enemy fire.

A primary ship has, let's randomly say, 10k shields built in.
So once you start taking fire, those shields begin to go down.

The docked ForceShield is inside the primary ship, and thus still has full shields because it has not yet been hit.

You can set up this module via logic to either be manually engaged OR to automatically update when your shields go below a certain percentage.

When you do, the interior module activates the EXTERIOR FF blocks, which have the shield protection from the fully powered module inside. This will begin absorbing the damage for the primary ship, allowing the main shield to recover until either the ForceShield module is depleted or deactivated, at which time your Primary shield will take over again.

It's true that this will stop you from being able to shoot the enemy, but the idea was for this to be an entirely defensive system. It's a Hail Mary to cover one's behind while they either run or recoup.
Perhaps even more interesting, deactivated FF blocks on separate entities can overlap.

So in theory, one could use multiple ForceShield modules in succession so long as each one deactivated BEFORE the next one came online. You could then run these in a series while either regening main shield power or charging a jump drive!
[doublepost=1484259742,1484259481][/doublepost]Another possibility would be to simply layer the shield like an onion and have them all set to turn on and off together. That could get REALLY bulky pretty quickly though.

Also, apparently, FF blocks stop missiles now. I had read somewhere that they didn't, but they did just fine when I tested them earlier.

---
(Final edit)

What I was not able to determine is whether or not this would allow your main shield to go "out of combat" for increased regen. I'm not sure if the primary entity is counted as 'In combat' when a docked entity like a turret is hit.
Anybody know how that particular mechanic works?

 

[DrTarDIS]

forcefields are low mass, ....

no.

Spoiler: starmade/data/config/block config.xml"

<InventoryGroup>red force field</InventoryGroup>
<Animated>true</Animated>
<Armour>75.0</Armour>
<ArmorHPContribution>100</ArmorHPContribution>
<StructureHPContribution>0</StructureHPContribution>
<Transparency>true</Transparency>
<InShop>true</InShop>
<Orientation>false</Orientation>
<Slab>0</Slab>
<Enterable>false</Enterable>
<Mass>0.25</Mass>

....

<InventoryGroup>basicdoor</InventoryGroup>
<Animated>false</Animated>
<Armour>60.0</Armour>
<ArmorHPContribution>75</ArmorHPContribution>
<StructureHPContribution>0</StructureHPContribution>
<Transparency>false</Transparency>
<InShop>true</InShop>
<Orientation>false</Orientation>
<Slab>0</Slab>
<Enterable>false</Enterable>
<Mass>0.15</Mass>

....

<InventoryGroup>trigger</InventoryGroup>
<Animated>false</Animated>
<Armour>0.0</Armour>
<ArmorHPContribution>0</ArmorHPContribution>
<StructureHPContribution>10</StructureHPContribution>
<Transparency>false</Transparency>
<InShop>true</InShop>
<Orientation>false</Orientation>
<Slab>0</Slab>
<Enterable>false</Enterable>
<Mass>0.01</Mass>

 

[Stormraven]

Ah. Think I meant to put 'weight' there.
I'm away from my computer at the moment and can't seem to find a list of all the block weights anywhere online.
If I'm remembering correctly, FF blocks have comparable armor values to standard armor, but weigh less.

Honestly, this system would likely only be feasible on a certain size range of ship. Too big and the shield would have be be rediculous, too small and it probably wouldn't be worth the space.

As I said before, this idea was originally intended as one piece of a modular ship

 

[DrTarDIS]

Ah. Think I meant to put 'weight' there.
I'm away from my computer at the moment and can't seem to find a list of all the block weights anywhere online.
If I'm remembering correctly, FF blocks have comparable armor values to standard armor, but weigh less.

Honestly, this system would likely only be feasible on a certain size range of ship. Too big and the shield would have be be rediculous, too small and it probably wouldn't be worth the space.

no.
they are identical to Advanced/crystal armor, except zero systems hp.
The file in question is shown to you in that spoiler tag. name and location.
You can also look at the wiki, top bar of starmadedock.net, full block list there.

Spoiler: Glass doors

<Block icon="520" name="Glass Door" textureId="49, 49, 49, 49, 49, 49" type="Glass_Door">
<Consistence>
<Item count="5">POWER_COIL_ID</Item>
</Consistence>
<CubatomConsistence/>
<Price>50</Price>
<Description>These modules can used to create doorways that can be opened or closed by the player, docking beams, and logic systems. Multiple adjacent blocks register as one door. Meaning that activating one will activate all other doors touching it. Quite useful for creating large doorways. Press $ACTIVATE to Open/Close. -Structural Stats- $ARMOUR% Armor $HP HP</Description>
<BlockResourceType>2</BlockResourceType>
<ProducedInFactory>3</ProducedInFactory>
<BasicResourceFactory>0</BasicResourceFactory>
<FactoryBakeTime>5.0</FactoryBakeTime>
<InventoryGroup>basicglassdoor</InventoryGroup>
<Animated>false</Animated>
<Armour>0.0</Armour>
<ArmorHPContribution>50</ArmorHPContribution>
<StructureHPContribution>0</StructureHPContribution>
<Transparency>true</Transparency>
<InShop>true</InShop>
<Orientation>false</Orientation>
<Slab>0</Slab>
<Enterable>false</Enterable>
<Mass>0.05</Mass>
<Volume>0.05</Volume>
<Hitpoints>75</Hitpoints>

Spoiler: standard

<InventoryGroup>standardgreyarmor</InventoryGroup>
<Animated>false</Animated>
<Armour>60.0</Armour>
<ArmorHPContribution>75</ArmorHPContribution>
<StructureHPContribution>5</StructureHPContribution>
<Transparency>false</Transparency>
<InShop>true</InShop>
<Orientation>false</Orientation>
<Slab>0</Slab>
<Enterable>false</Enterable>
<Mass>0.15</Mass>
<Volume>0.15</Volume>
<Hitpoints>100</Hitpoints>
<Placable>true</Placable>

 

[Stormraven]

Huh. Good to know!
When I checked the Wiki I could find mass but not weight.

 

[Zekester81]

Regardless of the extra mass involved, it's a cool idea. It wouldn't always be practical, but would definitely have it's uses. I had considered attempting something similar at one time, but never did try it out so cool to see that it's plausible. I think I was going to use blast door plates to cover certain areas of the ship, directional additional armor plates.

 

[Stormraven]

Regardless of the extra mass involved, it's a cool idea. It wouldn't always be practical, but would definitely have it's uses. I had considered attempting something similar at one time, but never did try it out so cool to see that it's plausible. I think I was going to use blast door plates to cover certain areas of the ship, directional additional armor plates.

Ooh... Suddenly I have this fun idea for a Bioship. Those blast doors could make a nice pseudo chitinous "battle mode"

 

[Calhoun]

Same concept as docked hull/shields.

 

[Jojomo]

Because forcefields offer less protection than advanced armour, for the same mass, if you were going to do this you might as well build two layers of hull as separate entities, and give each it's own shields.

Assuming Tydeth's explanation is right (I'm assuming it is) then multiple shields would be great against lower damage rapid fire, but weaker than a single hull combining all shields against large alpha fire because a shield too weak to stop the shot on its own won't take some of the damage before passing it to the next shield, it just passes the full damage to the next shield.

 

[Calhoun]

Because forcefields offer less protection than advanced armour, for the same mass, if you were going to do this you might as well build two layers of hull as separate entities, and give each it's own shields.

Assuming Tydeth's explanation is right (I'm assuming it is) then multiple shields would be great against lower damage rapid fire, but weaker than a single hull combining all shields against large alpha fire because a shield too weak to stop the shot on its own won't take some of the damage before passing it to the next shield, it just passes the full damage to the next shield.

Actually, Forcefields have exactly the same stats as Adv. Armour, but without the system HP. Which kind of makes them better in most ways.

 

[Jojomo]

Actually, Forcefields have exactly the same stats as Adv. Armour, but without the system HP. Which kind of makes them better in most ways.

Well I won't assume you're wrong until you explain more, but if you replace your hull with forcefields your total structure HP pool will be very significantly less, meaning your entities will be overheating and exploding at the drop of a hat.

 

[Calhoun]

Well I won't assume you're wrong until you explain more, but if you replace your hull with forcefields your total structure HP pool will be very significantly less, meaning your entities will be overheating and exploding at the drop of a hat.

They're better as a sacrificial or filler armour than advanced, As you don't lose the SHP when they get destroyed. Plus, they're very resource cheap. Obviously you won't replace your main hull with them, that would be dumb, but they can be very very handy.

 

[Jojomo]

They're better as a sacrificial or filler armour than advanced, As you don't lose the SHP when they get destroyed. Plus, they're very resource cheap. Obviously you won't replace your main hull with them, that would be dumb, but they can be very very handy.

Losses to SHP are proportional to the SHP value of a block. So if you're only losing armour or forcefield blocks from an entity it makes no difference which you use.
But if that entity has shields etc and it starts losing those blocks, the SHP losses are proportional to shield SHP values which stay the same regardless of what you used for armour...and if your armour is forcefields, the SHP pool the shield block SHP losses are coming from is smaller than if the armour had been advanced, so armour is superior.

 

[Calhoun]

Losses to SHP are proportional to the SHP value of a block. So if you're only losing armour or forcefield blocks from an entity it makes no difference which you use.
But if that entity has shields etc and it starts losing those blocks, the SHP losses are proportional to shield SHP values which stay the same regardless of what you used for armour...and if your armour is forcefields, the SHP pool the shield block SHP losses are coming from is smaller than if the armour had been advanced, so armour is superior.

If you have 5 layers of Adv. Armour, and a cannon round penetrates 4, you've lost 20 SHP. If you have One layer of Adv. and then 3 forcefield, followed by another Adv, you lose 5. It might not sound like a lot at this scale but it very quickly adds up in PvP.

Add to that the resource values. One grey advanced armour block costs 25 Fertikeen caps, plus 40 Mesh, and must go through quite a few chains to be produced (you need the base blocks of grey hull, fertikeen caps and fertikeen ingots). One blue forcefield costs 38 Varat. Varat.

 

[Jojomo]

If you have 5 layers of Adv. Armour, and a cannon round penetrates 4, you've lost 20 SHP. If you have One layer of Adv. and then 3 forcefield, followed by another Adv, you lose 5. It might not sound like a lot at this scale but it very quickly adds up in PvP.

Apologies Calhoun, yes, you are correct, I was off on another planet: if you're losing hull only then forcefields mean you're losing a smaller percentage of SHP.

But.... once there are holes in your hull and you start losing system blocks (while some armour remains) the situation is reversed: each system block is a bigger percentage loss because if your remaining armour is forcefields then the pool the losses are coming from is smaller.

It would require a closer look to figure out if one generally outweighs the other.

One thing it does mean is that if you mix forcefields and armour, it's better to have forcefields outside the armour, and lose them first.