Recognized An idea how to make it possible to build smaller fighters.

[SchnellBier]

Why the minimum size of fighters should be smaller:

Everyone who tried building a fighter soon discovered that you need a certain amount of systems to make them useable. The result is that every fighter gets way bigger than a fighter should be to encorporate the necessary systems (weapons, shields, thrust, power, etc.). If you want to cover every system with hull you get an even bigger ship design. Wings and every sort of detail have to be very bulky if you want to get more systems into it. In the next few updates the carrier system will hit the game. So if you want to build a carrier it has to be massive to store a good amount of fighters. If the average size of fighters can be reduced it´s easier to store them which in addition also makes it easier to build carriers. This is the reason I thought about it for a bit and came up with an idea.


The Idea:

If you read the text above it´s pretty obvious why fighter are too big. The systems need room. So the solution is to make fighters use less systems and still be effective.

Just to prevent the incoming shitstorm:

I DON´T WANT TO BUFF SMALL SHIPS. READ CAREFULLY!

The idea is to integrate a system to give ships buffs with fixed (or limited) stats. Every ship can get this buff. So small and big ones can get it the exact same way. Because the stats are fixed (or maybe limited) the %-impact on small ships is a lot bigger than on big ones.


How to get this buffs:

First things to mention:
- I don´t want to give ships this buffs for free.
- I don´t want to give a universal buff to every system.
- If I throw any numbers or examples around it´s just for explaining purposes.

The buffs can be optained through an upgrade system on the entity. In my opinion it would be a good idea to access it through the core or pilot seat. The upgrade system will have a limited number of upgrade slots (maybe 3).

This slots can be filled with new upgrade items. These upgrade items can be crafted and cost as many ressources as the blocks they represent. So ships will not get cheaper in any way. It will just switch from produceing the blocks to producing the upgrade items. So if you have (for example) an item that says: "Increase the power regeneration by 20.000." It will cost as much as the blocks to get 20.000 power regeneration. The only difference is that you don´t have to place the power on the ship so it can get smaller in size.


What do the upgrades to:

This can and has to be a matter of discussion. I´m aware that the examples i chose don´t have any negative effects on a ship but it would also be possible that the upgrades increase the mass of the fighter to compensate for the blocks that don´t have to be placed.

In my opinion there are 2 possibilities:

1. Give fixed number buffs:
As it suggest just give the entity a fixed buff to boost stats without blocks being placed. It has the advantage that it´s pretty easy to understand and to implement. It would also make the biggest impact to reduce the size of fighters. The problem is that the fixed stats can´t be targeted by enemies and can´t be destroyed by them.

Example 1: "Increase the power regeneration by 20.000."
Example 2: "Every cannon system get the stats of additional 10 cannons. (Max. 4 systems)"

2. Give a buff to a fixed number of system blocks:
This is probably the better solution. It would still require the fighter to get system blocks to get the buff and enemys can target them.

Example 1: "Every placed power generator block produces 1000 additional power. (Max. 20 blocks)"
Example 2: "Every cannon module is worth 4 cannon modules. (Max. 10 modules)"


Remember I don´t want to make them stronger or cheaper. I just think that a reduced minimum size of a useful fighter would be beneficial for the game.

Thoughts anyone?

 

[jayman38]

Idea:
I think we have more than enough BlockIDs available to make various system shapes, to allow systems to be used in place of hull wedges.
E.g. Tetras providing 1/10 system, heptas providing 4/5 system, wedges providing 1/2 system, corners providing 1/4 system.

I think a Thruster wedge would look cool. Simulated:

 

[Nickizzy]

Great idea. I would make it an expensive system block that would have certain stats.
Power core: 1 per ship, 20,000 power gen. Nongroupable, very expensive, and 20 health.

Override module: connect to a weapons system to multiply the power of the weapons 2x weapon damage, 2x explosive range. Adding more modules(no computer, just link it the primary) would increase the multiplyer for each by 1x(2 overrides, 3x damage). The modules would only work on groupings of 30 or less, and the total primary must be less than 40.
Very expensive, heavy, system level health.

AI has different modes.
For ships;
fighter, frigate, and capital. Fighters would move and manuver around the most, almost always moving. Frigates would be slower and more turret focused, but still use ship mounted weapons against big and important targets. Capitals would rely almost completely on turrets, and only use ship mounted weapons against stations or extremely slow ships.

For turrets;
Depending on turret size and power, ship-turret ratio, and ship AI mode, turrets would prioritize hitting certain objects. Tiny pd turrets would focus on missiles and microdrones, lockons would prioritize long range, huge capital turrets would prioritize only other capitals or frigates(by ai).

I never defined ship classes.

 

[nightrune]

If this were to be a thing, I think it would have to have low health and also scale with system HP.

That way it wasn't 100% effective until the block got shot. This gives it a downside compared to building out your whole system.

 

[HolyCookie]

Wow, what a lot of text :P
to start off, I also had had a few problems when I made a fighter.
ended up as world's shittiest fighter due to lack of space. remaining a shape while having it have good stats is a good goal for any builder.

That was the positive part, the negative part is this:
What you are suggesting requires pretty much work if I'm guessing right. So if it would come, it would take some time.
The second problem is that I need more opinions, anything about buffing needs more community, but I think most will like this
What Nickizzy suggests requires a fair amount of blockIDs, and schema has a hell of a lot planned for StarMade, all I know is that when we can prevent using a blockID, we should. But then again, your idea does fix the problem of having untouchable stat boosts.

As long as the numbers are balanced right, it shouldn't be a problem to have this.

Please comment or like the suggestion so we know that this is a liked or disliked idea.

 

[Nickizzy]

We should get a poll.

How else could you make destroyable upgrades? You could make multiblock structures(using a certain shape of shield, power, or thruster components), but that would limit ship design, especially when you want better versitality and smoothness.

 

[SchnellBier]

Wow, what a lot of text :p
to start off, I also had had a few problems when I made a fighter.
ended up as world's shittiest fighter due to lack of space. remaining a shape while having it have good stats is a good goal for any builder.

That was the positive part, the negative part is this:
What you are suggesting requires pretty much work if I'm guessing right. So if it would come, it would take some time.
The second problem is that I need more opinions, anything about buffing needs more community, but I think most will like this
What Nickizzy suggests requires a fair amount of blockIDs, and schema has a hell of a lot planned for StarMade, all I know is that when we can prevent using a blockID, we should. But then again, your idea does fix the problem of having untouchable stat boosts.

As long as the numbers are balanced right, it shouldn't be a problem to have this.

Please comment or like the suggestion so we know that this is a liked or disliked idea.

I know it requires work and time to add something like this. Maybe there´s a better solution to reduce the size of fighters but i just thought this might work pretty well if the effect of the upgrades is right. The thing is if it gets easier to get the basic stats together a lot of crazy and cool fighter designs will be a viable alternative. If you take into account that most ships are small ships it´s maybe worth it.

Adding additional blocks which give higher stats is exactly what I´m trying to prevent. Maybe it´s the better alternative but that´s why I´m asking for opinions.

Another idea is that the default ship core gives more basic stats or has some kind of skillpoints to spend into stats or buffs. The problem I see with this is that the stats or upgrades would be free.

 

[Lukwan]

Why the minimum size of fighters should be smaller:

2. Give a buff to a fixed number of system blocks:
This is probably the better solution. It would still require the fighter to get system blocks to get the buff and enemys can target them.

Example 1: "Every placed power generator block produces 1000 additional power. (Max. 20 blocks)"
Example 2: "Every cannon module is worth 4 cannon modules. (Max. 10 modules)"

Remember I don´t want to make them stronger or cheaper. I just think that a reduced minimum size of a useful fighter would be beneficial for the game.

This has the potential to be a scale-able buff that requires minimal upset to the code. (like I know anything about coding )

 

[Groovrider]

What is the maximum size and mass of a fighter?

 

[sayerulz]

I think the size of fighters is actually fine. If you look at a real life fighter up close, its a lot bigger than most people would think. And one would only expect a fighter that must contain all of the extra systems required to operate in space, along with things like shields, would be bigger still. At first I tried to make super small (>10 meter) fighters, but after looking at the actual scale of scifi and real life fighters, 20, 30, or even 40 meters is actually a pretty reasonable length.

 

[godmars]

Another idea is that the default ship core gives more basic stats or has some kind of skillpoints to spend into stats or buffs. The problem I see with this is that the stats or upgrades would be free.

It's really hard to do something like this because people will try to exploit it. I would say that the core could give a bonus to some stats that decreases as block count increases, but then whats to stop people from docking extra cores between, say, a turret, for extra power or thrust, or what have you. Maybe it could take into account combined block count, including rails instead

 

[SchnellBier]

I think the size of fighters is actually fine. If you look at a real life fighter up close, its a lot bigger than most people would think. And one would only expect a fighter that must contain all of the extra systems required to operate in space, along with things like shields, would be bigger still. At first I tried to make super small (>10 meter) fighters, but after looking at the actual scale of scifi and real life fighters, 20, 30, or even 40 meters is actually a pretty reasonable length.

It´s not about limiting fighters to a size. It´s about being able to build them smaller. Because as it is now you need a bulky ship hull to get enough systems in it. Not even a single small ship out of any scifi universe is usable if it would be build in a 1:1 scale. It has to be at least 3-4 times the size. Don´t get me wrong, I don´t want 1:1 scale replicas working but as it is now the possible designs of fighters is really limited by the amount of systems you have to squeeze into them.

 

[sayerulz]

My point is that large fighters are not really a bad thing.

 

[SchnellBier]

If you want carriers that are smaller than 400m then large fighters are a bad thing.

 

[jgames666]

I think perhaps making the ship core automatically upgrade as the mass of the ship reaches certain amounts might be a neat idea. This way each tier can have it's own bonuses geared for that size ship. This could also be very useful for balancing the game later on.

These tiers could have custom boosts based on what the ship is used for.
Under the ship tab their could be a button for the ship core and then you could select if the ship is a cargo vessel, fighter, science vessel, exploration vessel, Transport Vessel, Carrier, or even more. This could also be a way to help integrate certain quests that should only be offered to one group of ships. The quest/s could then be given only to the targeted group. Way to kill 2 birds with one stone so to speak.

 

[Criss]

It is an interesting system, but complicated. This will take some discussion. On one hand it would simply be better to create a formula that lets fighters do what they need to do without adding a new system on top of it. On the other hand an upgrade idea for ships would be pretty cool, and could add a vast amount of complexity and depth to ship designs. It is certainly worth discussing.

 

[SchnellBier]

It is an interesting system, but complicated. This will take some discussion. On one hand it would simply be better to create a formula that lets fighters do what they need to do without adding a new system on top of it. On the other hand an upgrade idea for ships would be pretty cool, and could add a vast amount of complexity and depth to ship designs. It is certainly worth discussing.

If you put it this way this upgrade system could also be the foundation of capitalship systems. "Enables the ship to place factories on them. (Minimum Mass 500.ooo)"

 

[NTIMESc]

Yeah, building small ships that are both functional and detailed is a difficult problem to overcome with one meter blocks. What about embedding systems INSIDE hull blocks?

It could work a couple of ways.

1. Build your ship systems, then "paint" the exterior with hull/armor at a reduced armor rating. OR
2. Build your ship hull, then embed the system block on one face of a hull or armor block.

Either way would only require swapping out a few textures. And both ways would result in the actual block becoming a system block, retaining any user functionality (pressing "R" on it), but with an armor rating and some adjusted mass and HP values.

A big advantage of this, is that it can apply to any ship size, and wouldn't be exploitable by big ships.

Example:
Advanced Armor(mass: 0.25, armor: 80%)
+ Cannon Computer(mass: 0.10, armor: 0%)
Armored Cannon Computer(mass:0.30, armor: 70%)

The other block values (structure/armor HP) would also be combined and adjusted in a sensible way, and there are LOTS of ways to balance the values so don't get hung up on my example.

 

[Pacific_Jim]

You can make perfectly usable ships on a pretty small scale at the moment, you just need to deploy them in large numbers. I think most of the early drones in the drone thread fit into a 7x7x7 box, and they work pretty nicely.

 

[NTIMESc]

both functional and detailed

I think we're talking about player-piloted ships mostly here. Drones are a different class.
For example, I tried to build a functional Veritech (from Robotech) and the result, while nice, wound up being three times larger, a little slow, and STILL can't put a dent in anything with decent shields:

Spoiler: Veritech VF-1J