AI, weapon ranges, size comparison, and fighting styles

    Winterhome

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    Remember when Isanth-VI pirates would kick the shit out of any and all similar size vessels without turrets just because the AI could reliably core drill while circle strafing around the target at knife fighting range?

    I remember that time. I miss it. It made pirate hunting a little more dangerous when the AI would charge forwards.

    And now I see people regularly bum rushing 10k mass pirate NPCs with 2.5k mass corvettes and winning because those pirates don't know how to use their weapons anymore.

    Suggestion is simple enough, but may be a little tough to implement.


    AI, upon engaging a target, IF it is an NPC faction AI ship (as opposed to "turret"), should determine the mass difference between itself and its victim, and its own thruster force. If the enemy is in a larger ship and the AI is in a significantly smaller one (ie: snowball's chance in hell), it runs unless it has significant backup. If the enemy is in a larger ship and the AI is in a moderately smaller one (quarter to half mass? dunno), then the AI attempts to stay behind the enemy ship at knife fighting range to avoid the main guns. If the AI is above those mass zones, then it moves to the next stage of tactics selection.

    The AI then determines which weapons groupings are its main gun and its auxiliary guns, ordering them by block count, with a strong emphasis placed on Ion effect weapons. The AI bases its engagement range and movement style on the primary weapon, using a totally different setting than the "Max Range" bits in blockbehaviorconfig.xml because AI doesn't like fighting across sector boundaries - it generally results in the AI unloading itself by trying to fight at maximum range with certain guns. Missile-Beam primaries, for instance, would be limited to a maximum range of something like "one sector" for AI, whereas cannons are shorter range, and missile-cannon is "in-your-face" range, and so on and so forth.

    If the AI determines its target's shields are down, if it is using an ion effect main weapon, it will cease doing so and start using secondary weapons. If the AI can otherwise support the power requirements (in e/s) of firing all weapons, it will fire all weapons. If it can NOT support the power requirements for a given weapon, it will attempt to burst fire to maintain positive e/s regen.

    The only time an AI should specifically attempt to circle strafe is when it is in close enough range that it can do so without risking flinging itself out of visual range.

    AI behavior can be overridden by selecting the Bobby AI Module, and linking a given weapon computer to it directly. This will not necessarily be its "main gun", but it will determine its behavior in combat. Linking a warhead to the Bobby will enable "Ramming AI", which will not only attempt to get close to the target, but will also attempt to cancel out its own lateral velocity in relation to the target to ensure a collision (rather than, say, orbiting it).
     

    Lecic

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    I'm tired of AI being so useless. This would be great.
     

    Raisinbat

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    Would love less awful AI, but please dont make them run away, nothing more irritating than AI showing up and running away all the time, makes it frustrating to hunt them down, effectively making pirate hunting a very worthless activity, and a large enough ship with no weapons will simply scare them off = useless.
     
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    I just want over-gunned AI ships to hold their fire when their power capacitors are too low. They spam fire when they shouldn't and their reactors stop generating. They get locked into a loop of never firing...
     

    Winterhome

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    Would love less awful AI, but please dont make them run away, nothing more irritating than AI showing up and running away all the time, makes it frustrating to hunt them down, effectively making pirate hunting a very worthless activity, and a large enough ship with no weapons will simply scare them off = useless.
    Would you fire at something for hours and hours without even being so much as able to break its shields?
    I doubt it.
     

    StormWing0

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    The AI needs to know how to use unarmed ships too as well as logic triggers. Unarmed ships should run like heck from anything, unless of course they have warheads on them. :P
     

    sayerulz

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    The AI needs to know how to use unarmed ships too as well as logic triggers. Unarmed ships should run like heck from anything, unless of course they have warheads on them. :p
    Or they just don't use ships that don't have weapons, power, and thrust. No more dreaded pirate doors!
     
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    Raisinbat

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    Would you fire at something for hours and hours without even being so much as able to break its shields?
    This is completely irrelevant; The AI is not a person. In a PvE game you need to have these suicidal opponents. Remember the fallen in diablo II? How they'd run up to you DASHA DUSHU! then you kill one and they run away again, the one you killed gets revived, then they run back up to you etc. etc. etc. and they never drop anything, they give very little experience and they aren't really threats, they're just irritating little roadblocks that aren't a threat, aren't worth interacting with and might as well not be there. It's not like pirates are in any way sensible people; there's a limitless universe full of resources they can go mine and they dont benefit at all from destroying you. Why do you want this behavior in the game? I can't tell what it's supposed to contribute, other than meaningless "realism" in a game where you can carry a planet in a pocket and everything is powered by perpetual motion cubes.
     

    Winterhome

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    This is completely irrelevant; The AI is not a person. In a PvE game you need to have these suicidal opponents. Remember the fallen in diablo II? How they'd run up to you DASHA DUSHU! then you kill one and they run away again, the one you killed gets revived, then they run back up to you etc. etc. etc. and they never drop anything, they give very little experience and they aren't really threats, they're just irritating little roadblocks that aren't a threat, aren't worth interacting with and might as well not be there. It's not like pirates are in any way sensible people; there's a limitless universe full of resources they can go mine and they dont benefit at all from destroying you. Why do you want this behavior in the game? I can't tell what it's supposed to contribute, other than meaningless "realism" in a game where you can carry a planet in a pocket and everything is powered by perpetual motion cubes.
    So you're saying that you want free kills and loot clouds for no effort when you take in a massive capital ship against some tiny little NPC scrap haulers with lasers duct taped on. Got it.

    We don't even know if pirates are reasonable or not. All we know is that they defend their homes, send out patrols, and shoot at hostiles - there is no backstory. They are literally being defined right now by their lack of a functioning AI. Pirates in most sci-fi series don't mine because mining is hard and it's far easier to simply steal, disassemble, and sell other peoples' ships as long as they're able to kill (or eat) the crew. Pirates in reality didn't mine for gold or plant tobacco (exceptional profitability) did they? They preferred simply removing shit from peoples' less well armed ships where possible, and when they came up against an entire armada or they were in a small ship and found themselves faced with a fucking warship, they ran like hell.
     
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    This is completely irrelevant; The AI is not a person. In a PvE game you need to have these suicidal opponents
    I see where you're coming from but its a matter of immersion. Why is a pirate going to stand and fight against something it has no chance at beating? Maybe there can be a subset of pirates fueled by the POWER OF FANATICISM or something, or different AI factions have different rules of engagement, but I don't see an issue with base pirates turning tail when outgunned
     

    Raisinbat

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    So you're saying that you want free kills and loot clouds for no effort when you take in a massive capital ship against some tiny little NPC scrap haulers with lasers duct taped on. Got it.
    No, i'm saying the game shouldn't put the pirates in these situations in the first place, but if it does, i dont want hundreds of little pooships derping around everywhere, flying around looking for things to attack, then realize what they're attacking is much stronger than they are and running away again. This crap just creates these endless irritants where you have to be everywhere at once ; creating an impenetrable 3D cage around "your stuff" littered with guns 50.000 times the density of the pirates you're trying to hold off, or else that one little pooship gets in your cereal and ruins your day. Just have them die with dignity.

    Since you know exactly what i want, i ask again, WHY do YOU want this? What does it contribute to the game? It's not like anyone is going to bother hunting down tiny pirates for 5 dirt cubes and a thruster when mining is so much faster, so saying this is too easy reward is nonsense; asteroids are meatier, less shooty and don't even move.
     

    Lecic

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    No, i'm saying the game shouldn't put the pirates in these situations in the first place, but if it does, i dont want hundreds of little pooships derping around everywhere, flying around looking for things to attack, then realize what they're attacking is much stronger than they are and running away again. This crap just creates these endless irritants where you have to be everywhere at once ; creating an impenetrable 3D cage around "your stuff" littered with guns 50.000 times the density of the pirates you're trying to hold off, or else that one little pooship gets in your cereal and ruins your day. Just have them die with dignity.
    Orr... you could have fleeing pirates despawn if they're unloaded for a certain amount of time? Thus preventing the issue of a "pirate cage" getting slowly formed around your base by weak pirates showing up and running away?

    Since you know exactly what i want, i ask again, WHY do YOU want this? What does it contribute to the game? It's not like anyone is going to bother hunting down tiny pirates for 5 dirt cubes and a thruster when mining is so much faster, so saying this is too easy reward is nonsense; asteroids are meatier, less shooty and don't even move.
    It contributes atmosphere to the game, which, yes, IS important. It seems you're making the assumption that Isanths are going to be the only pirates ever in the base game, which is ridiculous. Larger pirates will almost definitely be in the game at some point, and then the idea of small ships fleeing makes a lot more sense.
     

    Raisinbat

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    I see where you're coming from but its a matter of immersion
    It's probably this since i have no fucking idea what people mean when they say "immersion". Is civilization not immersive, because those barbarians sure ought to be on suicide watch. Is X3/Freelancer not immersive since those goons are getting mowed down by the thousands and still insist in flying straight into your face. Are platformers not immersive since every single one has enemies literally jumping off cliffs. Are JRPGs not immersive since mobs don't run away when you're higher level? Is FIFA not immersive if your opponent doesn't forfeit when you're Barcelona and they're FC Manure?
     

    Winterhome

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    No, i'm saying the game shouldn't put the pirates in these situations in the first place, but if it does, i dont want hundreds of little pooships derping around everywhere, flying around looking for things to attack, then realize what they're attacking is much stronger than they are and running away again. This crap just creates these endless irritants where you have to be everywhere at once ; creating an impenetrable 3D cage around "your stuff" littered with guns 50.000 times the density of the pirates you're trying to hold off, or else that one little pooship gets in your cereal and ruins your day. Just have them die with dignity.
    You seem to be under the impression that I said they would "retreat and come back an hour later"

    I have never, ever, not even ONCE seen an AI fleet turn around after it's left an area and come back. Not once in my entire experience of playing Starmade, and I've been around for years. If something goes away, it's fucking gone. It's not "hanging around" - it's out of the galaxy after a few hours thanks to universe simulation. Hell, if they despawned after leaving a given area, that would be even better.

    Anyway, I want pirates that run away like reasonable sentients because it gives flavor and life to the universe. This is not Diablo. This is not some click-to-kill arena game or a hack-n-slash RPG. This is an open universe sandbox space game that is eventually intended to include station to station trading and cross-system trade fleets, fleet battles between NPC factions, and such. You seem to be under the impression that the only thing that exists is the stuff right in front of the player, and that there are no plans for anything else to be improved upon. The recent Whale unveiling proves that one wrong by default. What's the point of a 30 meter long whale that dies in four shots and doesn't drop absolutely amazing loot?
     
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    Master_Artificer

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    Why don't you just build a tractor beam?

    Most decent sized ships tend to have a stop effect or pull effect AI turret on them for utility work, this might encourage people to look at the wide variaty of effects that this game has, and use more than just 2-3 of them on all of their weapons.
     

    Ithirahad

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    Why don't you just build a tractor beam?

    Most decent sized ships tend to have a stop effect or pull effect AI turret on them for utility work, this might encourage people to look at the wide variaty of effects that this game has, and use more than just 2-3 of them on all of their weapons.
    At the moment those effects are exceedingly weak and do not scale.
    What's the point of a 30 meter long whale that dies in four shots and doesn't drop absolutely amazing loot?
    Adding atmosphere is the point. And, for the time being, may be the only point we get. Might prove to be an interesting enemy vs. fighters, though.
     

    Winterhome

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    Adding atmosphere is the point. And, for the time being, may be the only point we get. Might prove to be an interesting enemy vs. fighters, though.
    Rhetorical question, mate.