Suggested Add technology tiers

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    The idea is: There would be different versions of each ship system, each one better than the previous, but also more expensive and they would consume more power. Like the eve online tech2 and tech3 ships and systems.
    So you can build a small powerful ship instead a big powerful one, but it would also cost a lot more resources to build it and power to maintain it operative.

    I have played a lot of space games and in most of them you could just replace your ship weapons/systems for better ones without adding a lot of mass nor increasing the ship size. Actually a lot of games have that mechanic, not just space games.
    Starmade lacks this feature and it would be cool to be able to actually upgrade a ship instead building a bigger one if you like the one you already built.

    This would also encourage players to build small ships.
     
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    sayerulz

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    No. Just make a better ship. You are building your own systems. Getting a more advanced ship is a question of making better optimized systems yourself. Having a way to just by blocks that instantly make your ship x% better is just lazy.
     

    Jaaskinal

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    1) The game already favors existing factions in a persistent universe over new ones. No balance is inherently needed to make existing factions better.
    2) Block ID's are at a premium in the game. Either you would need to triple the amount of blocks in the game, or you would need to have ships flagged as their respective tiers. Neither of these options are great for the game.
    3) Unless the system was balanced absolutely perfectly, it would favor one method over the other. If "hard to get" high tier systems were too easy to get, in terms of what they were replacing, everyone would use them, and no one would use any other system. If they were too hard to get for their output, no one would use them, because they'd be a waste.
     

    Winterhome

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    Take a look at what happened to Minecraft's PVP scene.

    There's wood, leather, stone, iron, gold, etc. - and they all go completely unused because despite being cheap and easy to maintain, they're totally useless. Every single PVPer in Minecraft is using full diamond gear with the best enchantments they can get. Why? Because all the tiers below it are, despite being less resource intensive, completely uncompetitive.

    I strongly dislike the concept of "tiered" anything in a multiplayer game with a strong focus on PVP, because you might as well be getting rid of the lower tier blocks.
     
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    NeonSturm

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    2) Block ID's are at a premium in the game. Either you would need to triple the amount of blocks in the game, or you would need to have ships flagged as their respective tiers. Neither of these options are great for the game.
    Or you make tiers via effect-slaves like systems.
    A: The more slave types and complexity, the higher the tier.
    B: The more slaves, the higher the tier because slaves are expensive.
    3) Unless the system was balanced absolutely perfectly, it would favor one method over the other. If "hard to get" high tier systems were too easy to get, in terms of what they were replacing, everyone would use them, and no one would use any other system. If they were too hard to get for their output, no one would use them, because they'd be a waste.
    If a system has a soft-cap at 100%, but tier-enhancers would increase it to 110% ?
    You might place down 100 tier-1 reactors or 100 tier-2 reactors but tier-2 are 4x as expensive per block and just 10% more efficient.

    If you have a fleet of 10 ships and your flagship would cost 4x, then you pay only 30% more for your fleet to have an awesome flagship.
    Edit: The point here is to make the flagship "awesome/special", not efficency.​
     
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    Jaaskinal

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    Or you make tiers via effect-slaves like systems.
    A: The more slave types and complexity, the higher the tier.
    B: The more slaves, the higher the tier because slaves are expensive.

    If a system has a soft-cap at 100%, but tier-enhancers would increase it to 110% ?
    You might place down 100 tier-1 reactors or 100 tier-2 reactors but tier-2 are 4x as expensive per block and just 10% more efficient.

    If you have a fleet of 10 ships and your flagship would cost 4x, then you pay only 30% more for your fleet to have an awesome flagship.​
    If it costs more to use a system that gives you less benefit... It would be retarded to use it, rather than just using a bigger system.
     

    NeonSturm

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    If it costs more to use a system that gives you less benefit... It would be retarded to use it, rather than just using a bigger system.
    But you forget one point: efficiency multiplies.
    110% power efficiency lets you use 110% weapon blocks.
    110% weapon blocks with 110% efficiency have 121% efficiency.
    All on a 110% as manoeuvrable ship with 110% shields.
    If you had a 121% as big system, you would need 121% thrusters, but with 100% thrusters you safe 1/6 mass, power and volume in thrust
    The strength would be shields*weapon = 121%*110% = 133%, possibly *110% because of evasion = 146%​

    This means if your faction uses 1000 station-hangars/gates which can each hold/jump 10'000 mass, you can get 133% ship strength into/through them.
    Will you upgrade your ship so it costs 4x as much or will you upgrade 1000 individual hangars/gates which may cost more and which you do not own?
    If power gets capped per entity, this will also be a huge benefit compared to separating the shield pool to two ships where one gets controlled by shitty AI.
     
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    Jaaskinal

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    But you forget one point: efficiency multiplies.
    110% power efficiency lets you use 110% weapon blocks.
    110% weapon blocks with 110% efficiency have 121% efficiency.
    All on a 110% as manoeuvrable ship with 110% shields.
    If you had a 121% as big system, you would need 121% thrusters, but with 100% thrusters you safe 1/6 mass, power and volume in thrust
    The strength would be shields*weapon = 121%*110% = 133%, possibly *110% because of evasion = 146%​

    This means if your faction uses 1000 gates which can each jump 10'000 mass, you can get 133% ship strength through them.
    Will you upgrade your ship so it costs 4x as much or will you upgrade 1000 individual gates which may cost more?
    If power gets capped per entity, this will also be a huge benefit compared to separating the shield pool to two ships where one gets controlled by shitty AI.
    If you make it more effective, and it doesn't cost that much, everyone will always use it. Reading comprehension please, re-read my original post more carefully.
     

    NeonSturm

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    If you make it more effective, and it doesn't cost that much, everyone will always use it. Reading comprehension please, re-read my original post more carefully.
    I give that back to you :)

    You would use it on your main ship, but not for AI-controlled ships.
    Because you can increase the strength of player control for a high cost. You pay to transfer power from AI-escorts to the player's hands.

    Or if you had a "captain's fighter" in your flagship, you pay 1000x for the flagship and it does not matter if you pay 1x or 4x for the "captain's fighter" but your hangar size matters.
     

    Jaaskinal

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    I give that back to you :)

    You would use it on your main ship, but not for AI-controlled ships.
    Because you can increase the strength of player control for a high cost. You pay to transfer power from AI-escorts to the player's hands.

    Or if you had a "captain's fighter" in your flagship, you pay 1000x for the flagship and it does not matter if you pay 1x or 4x for the "captain's fighter" but your hangar size matters.
    I guess I should have pointed out how your math in your original post didn't work. A ship of which costs 4x as much to be 30% more effective is retarded. Now, you were sort of ambiguous with this, maybe you meant it was not the same ship, but with a system multiplier. Maybe you meant it was larger, but also used a multiplier system. In this second example, it's impossible to extrapolate what you really mean, in terms of the ships relation between the other ships.

    Your fascination with gates really doesn't interest me. I've seen your suggestion, it's utterly retarded and wouldn't fit into the game at all. You believe your idea would be some grand thing for the game, it would fix everything and make it perfect. No one gives a shit about gates tbqh. Setting up a network of them in game wouldn't fix the underlying issues with them. Now, with that said, if it's cheaper to make a ship significantly more effective for it's size, of course it's cheaper than modifying the gate, but at that point, why would you ever use anything except the multipliers? Why wouldn't you make the gate bigger and send through a bigger, multiplier filled ship?

    My point is not that people would or wouldn't use them; it's that everyone would use them, or not. Any element which you could add to the game, which introduces blocks of the same type and function, but of different values is very difficult to balance, and other options present much greater diversities of options and play styles, for less balancing effort. Regardless of how powerful they are, or what exactly they would do for a ship, they would be very boring to use.

    My first comment illustrates why I believe this is the case: "Unless the system was balanced absolutely perfectly, it would favor one method over the other." This statement brings out three options, which I'll dissect for you, so you don't have to use critical thinking skills yourself.

    If modified systems are better than unmodified systems by resource cost, in any tiering system (replacement blocks, slaves, what have you,) then everyone who knows about the system and how it works will always use the system. This basically puts us back at the current system, everyones ships would have the modifier system, and everything would have to be balanced accordingly.

    If modified systems are worse than unmodified systems by resource cost, then everyone who knows that fact won't use the modified systems. This would put us in literally the same position we are in now.

    If modified systems performed exactly the same as unmodified systems by resource cost, it would be a purely aesthetic choice whether you wanted to use modified systems or not. This basically leaves us how we are now, but with a new mechanic that really does nothing.

    I believe the reason this works in EVE is because of their economy system, and their fixed ship system. I don't play the game, and this is just an assumption, but my guess is that EVE's economy (like many other MMO's) is a bitch to get into, and takes quite a while to get anything decent. In addition, there's only so many ships, each is a point to balance around, and is unique and adjustable. What leads me to believing these factors allow it to have a tier system? Well, there's actually a reason for wanting a better ship, and there's an easily quantifiable means of acquiring it. There's also an easily quantifiable means of determining its output in terms of damage, damage resistance and mobility.

    In starmade, you don't have any of this. Each ship is unique, damage applied from a battle makes it more unique, modifications from its original blueprint make it even more unique. You can't balance specific ships, because there are no specific ships. Take every ship in EVE and draw a line between it and every other ship, assume that that line has infinitely many ships on it, all of which scale evenly based on how far they are in the line, between the two ships that define the line. That is the balance challenge star made faces. Some ships are very effective and don't cost a lot, others cost more, but have different characteristics which validate a need for more resources. This sort of tiering adds a layer of complexity to the balance, while not actually modifying the gameplay.

    (Thinking back to my English class on persuasive essays here)

    Now, you might have a counter argument to this. Armor blocks are already tiered, I can already hear you wailing. To which I respond by saying you're wrong, so incredibly wrong. In the tiering system described in the OP, it describes exclusively scaling the function of the tiered blocks. Armor blocks are not scaled linearly. Their different block armor, block HP, armor HP, and mass make them critically different, and overall leads them to be support blocks for each other. Advanced armor is often used for its high armor value, but standard armor has better effective HP/mass, so it gets used too, and basic is great for soaking damage, with cannons penetration system, missiles explosion system and beams just not working well with armor. These blocks, while all sharing the same base function, act in unique and different ways because of the different values assigned to them.

    The concept of modifying soft caps and exponential values could potentially work, but I still think it would be boring. At the very least, it would make a point where it is more effective, but that point is a mathematical certainty. The game already has a lot of math in it if you want to build a good ship, I don't think we should just add another thing that you add when you go above a certain value. We need to add systems that require users to make critical choices when designing their ships and fleets, choices about counter-plays and what their opponents might be using. I don't think there's any way to make tiered systems do this in a meaningful way.

    (oh and then there's Azereiahs post. It illustrates my original comment pretty well. The resource cost vs effectiveness of diamond in minecraft is really dumb. The effectiveness you lose by not having it could almost never not justify acquiring it.)
     

    NeonSturm

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    Jaaskinal, I see you can provide a "protocol of rationale" instead of a "protocol of states", but why do you not see all the thoughts I put behind my argument too?
    Lets write a summary of variables which influenced this thread and their effect on our arguments.

    The idea is: There would be different versions of each ship system, each one better than the previous, but also more expensive and they would consume more power. Like the eve online tech2 and tech3 ships and systems.
    So you can build a small powerful ship instead a big powerful one, but it would also cost a lot more resources to build it and power to maintain it operative.

    I have played a lot of space games and in most of them you could just replace your ship weapons/systems for better ones without adding a lot of mass nor increasing the ship size. Actually a lot of games have that mechanic, not just space games.
    Starmade lacks this feature and it would be cool to be able to actually upgrade a ship instead building a bigger one if you like the one you already built.
    variable "efficiency":
    + smaller size
    + (indirect through size) increase evasion and rotation
    + more choices (building something big and cheap to feel "awesome" or something small to feel "superior")
    – increased cost
    effects dragging you up/down (note that they apply individually):
    + feeling awesome
    + cheaper
    – feeling superior
    – better (evasion, hangar requirements, rotation)​
    No. Just make a better ship. You are building your own systems. Getting a more advanced ship is a question of making better optimized systems yourself. Having a way to just by blocks that instantly make your ship x% better is just lazy.
    The min-max player here (not bad in itself), but not everyone likes to tinker with math and calculate break-even points.
    The miners prefer to greed resources instead.​
    This means if your faction uses 1000 station-hangars/gates which can each hold/jump 10'000 mass, you can get 133% ship strength into/through them.
    Will you upgrade your ship so it costs 4x as much or will you upgrade 1000 individual hangars/gates which may cost more and which you do not own?
    If power gets capped per entity, this will also be a huge benefit compared to separating the shield pool to two ships where one gets controlled by shitty AI.
    variable "strength / size"
    + stronger per size
    – more expensive per strength
    effects dragging you up/down (note that they apply individually):
    + stronger per single entity - counts if you want just 1 ship (carrier, flagship), not if you don't care
    – more expensive than multiple entities - counts if you are a min-max or build drones, not if you want something special
    + requires a less expensive hangar/gate and makes less lag on planets​
    The concept of modifying soft caps and exponential values could potentially work, but I still think it would be boring. At the very least, it would make a point where it is more effective, but that point is a mathematical certainty.
    Some enjoy discovering the break-even points and completing their formula on min-maxing, taking every variable, meta-play and unintended effects into account.
    Do you want to enforce your preference in a way that limits their freedom to play around break-even points?
    My point is not that people would or wouldn't use them; it's that everyone would use them, or not.
    Not if peoples have the choice to follow this or that based on personal preference.
    Here, you need balance so that about 1/2 would go this way and 1/2 would go that way and everyone can still play on the same server.
    Ideally, you would get every person to make both decisions - one decision for non-player stuff or copy+pasted drones and one decision for his personal assets and flagships or carriers of drones.

    Here is the critical decision you want players to make.

    EDIT: Perhaps this would put small and big ships on more equal footing if it does matter less how much income is distributed to pure volume.
     
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    I've noticed that with the enemy ship stats showing on hud will contribute to if you will attack or tuck tail and run. Maybe if you couldn't see the other ships stats of power/shields/structure it would add a little danger to any encounter by showing just ship name,and structure health.
     

    Gasboy

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    What I would prefer, if Schine is going to use up more block-IDs, is more, different-from-what-we-have, weaponry. As well as things like heat shields so we can move closer to the stars. And to improve the radar jamming (too cheap in power for what you get) and cloaking (too expensive in power for what you get) systems.

    A tiering system doesn't work well in a sandbox game for a few reasons.

    World of Tanks, World of Warships, Star Conflict, War Thunder, and Armored Warfare are all games where you slowly grind your way up the tech trees. Where each upgrade is generally better than it's predecessor. This sort of system requires a huge amount of testing and balancing to get it even close to right.

    Schine would not only have to code in the tiering system, but also code in a way to "level up" or "advance up the tech tree". So basically you'd have to grind in StarMade. Where as right now, if you want to improve your weaponry, you find the appropriate asteroid, mine it for the ores and crystals, and construct your new weapons. Or, mine the wrong asteroids, sell everything to a dozen different shops, and buy the weapons you want.

    StarMade's progression system in a pure, vanilla server isn't "Level 1 => Level 2 => Level 3 ... Level N". It's "Mine asteroid => Start making factories => build station/base on planet => build more factories => browse recipes and ponder ship design => mine specific asteroids => build more factories => start creating ship systems and hull => experiment in ship building => die horribly to Lecic a few times => improve ship ... FUN!"

    The main thing about tiering is that Tier 2 is always better, or better in a few categories (more damage, or faster) and not worse in all the others, than Tier 1. It is always better to take Tier 2 when you are able, because you will usually get pwnd by the guys with Tier 2 stuff if you're still running around in Tier 1 stuff. If this comes in, StarMade would have to give server admins more tools to be able to segregate lower-tiered people from higher-tiered people. So now once you've upgraded your ships to higher tiers, you cannot go back to the nice, cosy mining spots you used to have. OOPS, did you build a station in a low level area? Aww, so sad, too bad.

    And lastly, another thing to consider in a tiering system is ship size. How do you balance small ships versus large ships? At what point should a N-mass ship be able to beat a N++++-mass ship?

    Generally, in a 1v1, the larger ship should win due to having more armor and HP to absorb damage, more shielding, bigger weapons and so on. We have all the tools we need to make fairly mobile, fairly fast, heavily armed and armored ships, and these ships can smoke things smaller than themselves. But Schine has also provided us with tools to be able to build and control many small ships. And it doesn't take that large a % of the larger ship's mass, in smaller ships, to kick that larger ship's ass.

    By being able to increase the projection of power of ships in general, you lower the number of small ships required to destroy the larger one. Which adds to an increasingly unfair situation.

    Yes, sure, in your system the defensive systems are upgraded also. But weapons generally outpace defenses, and that is the case in StarMade. Uptiering weapons would make it worse.

    Essentially, your idea could vastly complicate an already complicated game. Right now, all someone needs to do to get into StarMade is be interested enough to research a few things. Look up how to properly build an efficient ship. Even armed with knowledge, that new player will still likely be bested by a more experienced player (at combat, mining efficiency, ship building, etc). And that's how it should be.

    It shouldn't be about the grind, which is what tiering both requires and encourages.
     
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    I'm all for tech, but I'd rather they didn't waste thousands of coding hours creating all-new "upper tier" materials. I'd rather they kept it simple and allowed players to tech their specific productions by percentages so that their productions improve by a percentage (adjustable in server) every step, allowing for much more flexibility than a canned "tier" system.