Read by Council A Total Revamp of Combat

    Joined
    Jan 5, 2016
    Messages
    30
    Reaction score
    18
    stuff

    I'm linking to google docs because of it's ease of use and the fact that SMD's pentium is still on fire.\

    here's a transcript:


    A Total Revamp of Combat

    Global changes:
    All weapons now gradually consume their energy while reloading as opposed to instantly consuming it when you fire. Because sensors now take a respectable amount of energy to run this should shuffle around energy dynamics.


    Additive velocity. If for example the slowest missile travels at just twice the max ship speed without overdrive, then moving at the max ship speed and firing will cause that missile to fly at three times the max ship speed.


    Fix shift while flying to decelerate at the same rate as you accelerate.


    Map changes:
    Because of the reality of the long range combat this system would provide, it is important that the map is revamped before the system is implemented. The new map optionally shows your sensor range as a translucent sphere. Piloted and ai controlled ships alike show up on the map as well and can even be targeted. This potentially means that a brawler ship could jump in, unload its high-alpha close range weapons, and then jump away while taking minimal damage. Because of the potential for strategies like this the infinidrive will unfortunately have to be patched. The solution I recommend is to nerf the shit out of the jump range when the drive isn’t up to snuff for the ship it is mounted on.


    Sensor changes:
    Sensors now have a resolution scale. For every block in your sensor array, it gains 10 resolution. The actual resolution number is the measure of the max range your ship can detect a one mass entity (less than one mass entities are undetectable). So a ten resolution sensor could detect a 1 mass ship 10 blocks away. After that, bigger ships can be detected outside that threshold of a logarithmic scale as follows: A 1mil mass ship could be detected 60 blocks away because log(mass[1,000,000])*resolution[10]=detection threshold[60]. The smaller a ship is the harder it is to detect. For example a 1000 resolution array could detect a 20 million mass ship from 7000 blocks away, a 100 mass ship would have to close to 500 meters before being detected. The formula for this is log(mass[100])/resolution number[1000]=detection threshold[500]. This makes smaller sensors better at detecting small ships, and larger sensors better at detecting big stuff from far away. Please note that the formulas only apply when the ship mass is bigger or smaller than the resolution number, respectively. When the ship is the same mass as the resolution number it is detected at a range equal to the resolution number. The exact numbers can be tweaked but the formulas should stay the same as I feel it provides the best balance.


    Turrets cannot lock onto a target that hasn't been detected by sensors, and they will only fire at ships that close within their range. All missiles are now lock-on if mounted on a piloted ship, but you have to target the opponent you want to hit specifically. Lockon is instantaneous.


    Scanners now act as two different systems at once: passive sensors and active sensors. Passive sensors are active at all times, have 1% of the resolution rating of active sensors, and give off no scanner-noise. When you are locked by active sensors you are informed of this assuming you have any sensors at all on your ship because of the scanner-noise. Active sensors consume energy and pulse every half second, consuming energy proportional to their resolution. Please note that scanners can be automated.


    There is a hard limit on sensor detection range of 25 KM.


    In a fleet, if any ship in the fleet gets a lock on an opponent every ship in the fleet will be able to fire upon them. This means building dedicated sensor ships for your fleet is viable.


    Missile changes:
    Missiles now do 50% less damage vs shields.

    Missile/Missile:

    The current missile/missile is a poorly designed and laggy mess. Fireworks are fun, but missile/missile makes PD useless just by using hundreds of twoblock groups. Thousands of 0-damage missiles lag your game. They automatically lock onto your allies because you enemies are so far away. No more! Missile/missile has been changed to behave like pure missile but with two differences. First, missile/missile is EXTREMELY fast. It is the fastest missile by a huge margin. It suffers with range because of this, however, having merely a kilometer of effective range, but good luck shooting a salvo of these down.


    Missile/Beam:

    Now has 20KM of range. All the other weapons are getting buffed and respecialized so I don't really think any other changes are needed. You can lock onto enemy ships outside your sight range using the navigation menu.


    Missile/Cannon:

    Has 2KM of range and travels faster than the other missiles except for missile/missile. DPS is increased to compensate for being seriously outranged by the other missile types.


    Missile/Pulse:

    Now does completely absurd DPS. These missiles are the slowest ones and have only 5KM of range. They are probably going to get instantly shot down by anybody with a PD system. Highest alpha damage in the game.

    Missile:

    In the middle of everything, having 10km of range, having midrange DPS, and having midrange speed.


    Cannon Changes:
    Cannon/Cannon:

    Has the shortest range (1KM), slowest projectile speed, but second-highest dps. Useful for PD and pointblank weapons systems.


    Cannon/Beam:

    Now has 10KM of range. Missiles are king at range, but railguns don't have to deal with being nerfed vs shields. The downside is that at 10KM you can probably dodge it pretty easily.



    Cannon/Missile:

    Does incredibly high alpha damage. High reload time, 1KM range, slightly more dps than a comparable cannon/cannon. Due to the bullet spread it is only effective at close range.


    Cannon/Pulse:

    Ridiculously powerful. The shot hits its targets almost instantaneously. While other guns have to deal with their built-in penetration factor being scaled down, the cannon/pulse either puts all of its damage into the hole or penetrates the enemy ship all the way through. 4KM range. Does the third highest alpha damage damage in the game. Takes a full minute to reload a pure one, but it does over three times the damage of a comparable railgun per shot.


    Cannon:

    Also in the middle of everything, with 5k range and average stats.

    Beam Changes:
    Beam/Missile:

    Instead of being a shotgun beam this gun increases in size over its range, hitting up to a 6x6 area. 1KM range. Respectable dps.


    Beam/Beam:

    5KM range, this beam doesn't have much dps, but its hits it's targets instantly and has a slight penetration effect to spread its damage out more.


    Beam/Cannon:

    This beam does intense DPS but its damage rapidly falls off to nothing at 1KM.


    Beam/Pulse:

    After being charged for up to 1 minute (does this automatically), this weapon unleashes a 3KM range lance of energy that does completely insane damage and both penetrates and propagates damage to nearby blocks like an explosion, slicing ships to bits. Does all of its damage over 5 seconds of firing and hits every quarter second while doing so. Second-highest DPS, second highest alpha damage in the game.


    Beam:

    3km range, average stats.


    Pulse Changes:
    I honestly have no clue what to do with pulse. It’s a pretty poorly designed weapon. It has to stay around to be slaved to other guns though.


    Other:

    Thrusters, shields, effects, and armor are fine. Power could use a rework and while I have my own ideas I hold that the game should lean very heavily towards midsize ships

    (IE 500 meter ship is a largish flagship) and kill off giant ships that lag the game. The current power system with it’s hardcap does it fine and when fleet command is finished using a lot of smaller ships will be the preferred method of combat.
     
    Last edited:
    • Like
    Reactions: Lecic

    Lecic

    Convicted Lancake Abuser
    Joined
    Apr 14, 2013
    Messages
    5,115
    Reaction score
    1,229
    • Thinking Positive Gold
    • Purchased!
    • Legacy Citizen 11
    Like a said in chat, I'm not sure how I feel about the weapon changes. The scanner changes, though? I love those.
     
    Joined
    Jun 27, 2013
    Messages
    202
    Reaction score
    10
    • Legacy Citizen 2
    • Purchased!
    Sensor changes are good, however I have some suggestions:
    - In my opinion your beam changes don't have enough range, beam should be the default long range weapon not cannon.

    - You should be able to release the beam-pulse when you want to once you hit 30 seconds of charge (with less duration/damage/range of course).

    - Beam-beam is pretty bad and uninteresting in my opinion.

    - Every secondary weapon block should count as primary when it comes to damage. Because I'm not dividing my damage by 2 just to have an (100%) effect on my weapon.
     
    Joined
    Dec 23, 2013
    Messages
    398
    Reaction score
    143
    • Legacy Citizen 2
    • Purchased!
    • Community Content - Bronze 1
    agree with ne3zy here, the rest of the changes are great!
    oh and make beams be able to kill missiles
     
    Last edited:
    Joined
    Jan 25, 2015
    Messages
    964
    Reaction score
    225
    • Wired for Logic
    • Councillor 2 Gold
    • Legacy Citizen 5
    Don't know about this, besides the scanner all I see is nerf, having swarm missiles super fast has no advantage as they can't be shot and are hard to dodge so what use is that? A debuff on missiles vs shields of 50% is insane, if you do that you will take out 25-50% of the ships as they all use missiles for ion effect.
    Have you thought about the consequences of having weapons charge automatically?
    First of all, it makes storage useless and all you need is power generation. second of all, ever fought a losing battle? if you have, you know you end up without regeneration because all power is going to shield generation, the shields that are easily being pinned down by the enemy.
    Now that scenario could be solved with having power control, 10% to shield 40% to thrust 40% to weapons (10% to turrets), things like that where you have 3/4 slide bars so you can prioritise and control power flow. But this still wouldn't solve the problem of useless power storage.
    I Like the idea of giving weapons a damage curve based on range, everything within range deals normal damage and then with a curve every meter outside the range the damage drops.

    Tag or quote me to get a faster reply.
     

    Valiant70

    That crazy cyborg
    Joined
    Oct 27, 2013
    Messages
    2,189
    Reaction score
    1,168
    • Thinking Positive
    • Purchased!
    • Legacy Citizen 4
    Love the missile changes.

    I don't feel like reading all the weapon changes right now.
     
    Joined
    Jan 5, 2016
    Messages
    30
    Reaction score
    18
    Sensor changes are good, however I have some suggestions:
    - In my opinion your beam changes don't have enough range, beam should be the default long range weapon not cannon.

    - You should be able to release the beam-pulse when you want to once you hit 30 seconds of charge (with less duration/damage/range of course).

    - Beam-beam is pretty bad and uninteresting in my opinion.

    - Every secondary weapon block should count as primary when it comes to damage. Because I'm not dividing my damage by 2 just to have an (100%) effect on my weapon.
    Don't know about this, besides the scanner all I see is nerf, having swarm missiles super fast has no advantage as they can't be shot and are hard to dodge so what use is that? A debuff on missiles vs shields of 50% is insane, if you do that you will take out 25-50% of the ships as they all use missiles for ion effect.
    Have you thought about the consequences of having weapons charge automatically?
    First of all, it makes storage useless and all you need is power generation. second of all, ever fought a losing battle? if you have, you know you end up without regeneration because all power is going to shield generation, the shields that are easily being pinned down by the enemy.
    Now that scenario could be solved with having power control, 10% to shield 40% to thrust 40% to weapons (10% to turrets), things like that where you have 3/4 slide bars so you can prioritise and control power flow. But this still wouldn't solve the problem of useless power storage.
    I Like the idea of giving weapons a damage curve based on range, everything within range deals normal damage and then with a curve every meter outside the range the damage drops.

    Tag or quote me to get a faster reply.
    I was honestly thinking about redoing beams to be the goto midrange weapon, but give them a slight falloff curve. Beam/beam would have no falloff at a dps tradeoff. Remember that over the space of 10 KM you could easily dodge a bullet or shoot down a missile. Is that interesting enough for you?

    Obviously all weapon scaling would function as it does now.


    Swarm missiles are no longer swarm missiles. They are basically really fast pure missiles with poor range.

    You bring up a very good point about the shield nerf and charging mechanic. I want the beam/pulse to charge over time however.

    I love that power redirection idea.
     
    Joined
    Sep 4, 2013
    Messages
    723
    Reaction score
    200
    • Purchased!
    • Legacy Citizen 5
    Not sure if it will work well with starmade as passing from one sector to another is glitchy.
     
    Joined
    Mar 4, 2016
    Messages
    4
    Reaction score
    0
    Second of all, some of the ranges on missiles are confusing. Them seem to become snipers using your ideas and most of the changes aren't really necessary. I mean, when have you ever had a battle 10km away. I'd say it's the way we fight that needs to change rather than the weapons we use. It may just be me but I always end up with fights where the person is spinning around in a giant circle blasting away at eachother.

    Though to end on a positive note, I love your sensor and scanner ideas. I think scanners are great idea but the systems really need work and I rarely find interactions to work so your idea is a great change.
     
    Last edited:
    Joined
    Mar 9, 2014
    Messages
    222
    Reaction score
    479
    • Arrrty Gold
    Still wish there was a way to utilize a block (or blocks) for the UI of sensors instead of at the minimap. Would make cool war rooms ^^
     
    Joined
    Mar 10, 2015
    Messages
    122
    Reaction score
    50
    • Community Content - Bronze 1
    • Purchased!
    • Legacy Citizen 5
    Nitpicking about the missiles. First of all additive velocity makes no sense in my opinion. If you shoot a bullet out of a car it doesn't go faster and missiles take time to speed up so you would launch it and then crash into it.
    Also nitpicking: actually, shooting a bullet out of a car does make it go faster (relative to the ground), and shooting a missile out of a moving ship (especially in space), even one that needs to speed up, would not result in you crashing into it unless you're accelerating faster than your missile (which means you have a bad missile).
     

    Lecic

    Convicted Lancake Abuser
    Joined
    Apr 14, 2013
    Messages
    5,115
    Reaction score
    1,229
    • Thinking Positive Gold
    • Purchased!
    • Legacy Citizen 11
    I mean, when have you ever had a battle 10km away.
    Multiple times? Most fights I've been in have alternated between extremely long range and extremely close range, as people charge, pass, and turn around again, or get separated by sector borders while at knife-fighting range.
     

    Valiant70

    That crazy cyborg
    Joined
    Oct 27, 2013
    Messages
    2,189
    Reaction score
    1,168
    • Thinking Positive
    • Purchased!
    • Legacy Citizen 4
    Also nitpicking: actually, shooting a bullet out of a car does make it go faster (relative to the ground), and shooting a missile out of a moving ship (especially in space), even one that needs to speed up, would not result in you crashing into it unless you're accelerating faster than your missile (which means you have a bad missile).
    Quite correct. This is one of those things about physics that makes sense but isn't always extremely intuitive in a game setting. On a side note, it makes lead aim a lot easier to have additive velocity on. (It's currently a config option.) It would also help if we had proper instruments to tell us where to aim in front of the target. Vega Strike, my favorite space sim of all time besides Starmade, has such an indicator available as a sensor upgrade.