A Massive Amount Of Weapon Rebalancing, Changes, And Adding Minelayers

    Lecic

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    Personally, I think weapons are a LOT better balanced than they used to. However, there's still a lot of balancing that needs to be done to make some weapons even slightly useful. Here's a quick list of weapons that are useless for just about everything- dumbfire missiles, rapid dumbfire missiles, pretty much every cannon combo except rapid, shotgun beams, power and shield drain beams, and the entirety of the pulse weapon class. Additionally, we've got an entire weapon system that never got implemented- Minelayers. I'd like to propose some changes to the game that would make the existing weapons more balanced, as well as add Minelayers. Stuff placed in spoilers to protect you from walls of text. Surprisingly, there's a lot of that when you try to rebalance a lot of weapons.

    Missiles
    Missile- It's slow and it's dumbfire. Not a good combo for a weapon that can be shot down. So, point defense should have massively reduced accuracy when attempting to hit dumbfire missiles. Additionally, dumbfire missiles should accelerate. They should accelerate from their starter speed to 6x server max after travelling about 20% of their max range.
    Missile/Cannon- This is also slow and dumbfire, but it has reload time on its side. Point defense should have slightly reduced accuracy against these, and they should accelerate to 6x server max after travelling about 15% of their max range.
    Other missile types would not gain this acceleration ability, with the reasoning being they need to use their fuel for turns instead of acceleration.
    Missile/Beam- It's way too fast, especially with how high servers set their max speeds. Is that partially a server admin problem? Yes, but it should still be addressed. Speed should be dropped from just under 6x server max to 4.25x server speed.

    Cannons
    Cannon/Cannon- Currently, it's uncontested as the best cannon weapon. High rate of fire means missing is a non-issue, and it has equal DPS, range (besides sniper cannon), and punching ability to any other cannon weapon type. It should have these changes- 8 DPS/block instead of 10 with power costs remaining the same, and a slightly worse innate punch ability.
    Cannon/Missile- Here's all the explanation this weapon needs right now, from a thread I made on this issue in March-
    The shotgun cone of fire right now is closer to blowing tennis balls out of a bucket with a firecracker than it is to a proper shotgun.
    Make the spread tighter, increase projectile amount a bit, give it 12 DPS/block (to make up for missed shots) with the same power cost, and give it a symetrical spread pattern instead of the garbage pattern it has right now.
    Cannon/Pulse- The high alpha it has doesn't make up for the fact that it's easy to miss, and the diminishing ability to punch more layers with cannons means this weapon doesn't have a ton of use compared to other alpha weapons, which have higher reloads and a lesser chance to miss. Give it 12 DPS/block for the same power costs, and a slightly buffed punching ability.

    Beams
    All Damage Beams (besides Beam/Beam)- Increased range. 0.75 sector range for all of them.
    Beam/Missile- Similar problems to Cannon/Missile, except hitscan for a shotgun is even worse, since it means shots that miss have a 100% chance of not hitting anything. So, I propose much tighter spread, and explosive as innate instead of pierce. This will make Beam/Missile a good weapon for ripping off a chunk of hull, allowing you to hit the insides of ships easier.
    Power/Shield Drain- Longer range. Seriously, they're pretty balanced right now except for that pitiful range. Bring it up to 0.5 sector range like beams currently are.

    Pulses
    Let's not kid ourselves. Pulse is worthless for... pretty much everything. Melee combat is barely something that exists in the game, and probably never will beyond very small ships due to collision lag. So, let's make it useful. First off, pulse should use the old explosion system. Secondly, the way pulse works should change. Pulse now dumbfires a slower expanding pulse at short range. When the center of this pulse hits a block, it sticks to the block and then quickly collapses, doing damage to all blocks in the sphere. Radius is halved if it hits a ship that still has active armor HP.

    Pulse- 6 second reload time. Radius of 16. 1.2x server speed. 0.25 sector range. Fully expanded at 0.2 sectors.
    Pulse/Cannon- 3 second reload time. Radius of 8. 1.2x server speed. 0.25 sector range. Fully expanded at 0.1 sectors.
    Pulse/Missile- Fires a shotgun spray of small pulses. 8 second reload time. Radius of 4. 1.2x server speed. 0.25 sector range. Fully expanded at 0.15 sectors.
    Pulse/Beam- Fires a smaller but much faster and long range pulse. 8 second reload time. 3.5x server speed. Radius of 8. 0.65 sector range. Fully expanded at 0.5 sectors.
    Pulse/Pulse- The pulse we all currently know and hate. A melee weapon for whatever the hell you would possibly need a melee weapon for in a spaceship game. It now has a larger radius and does more DPS/block, to make it slightly more useable.
    Push Pulse- Stays as is, I guess. I don't really see a reason for it to remain in the game at all, though. It used to have that EMP effect, but now it works the same as a damage pulse with push effect at 100%.

    A potential way to add mines.
    So, now that all the existing weapons are done, how about Minelayers? They were originally planned to be a 5th weapon type,
    but, due to mostly unknown issues, it's still not in the game like a year after the 0.15 weapons update. It's most likely not a code issue, but more of a balance issue. So, I'd like to offer my suggestion for how it could be added.

    Mines would work similarly to missiles. However, they would have an activation time before being able to do, well, mine things, and would be stationary until triggered. Basically, mines, when dropped, initially do nothing. They need to arm themselves first. After the mine's warhead is armed, they will slowly increase their damage, until they either despawn, are activated by a hostile ship, or are bumped by a neutral or friendly ship. Your own or allied factions mines will show up on nav, provided you have it enabled. When a hostile ship is nearby, the mine will turn into a missile targetting that ship and fly towards it to deal damage. At this point, PD turrets can notice mines and will attempt to shoot them down, though depending on the mine and number of PD turrets, this may be difficult. This would probably lead to a new type of ship- Mine Clearers, mounted in large amounts of PD to clear a safe path through minefields for allied ships. Why do mines act more like sleeper missiles than mines? Simply put, regular mines aren't going to work in space. You'd need too many of them to properly mine a sector.

    Mines will last quite a long time compared to most other projectiles. Mines last 24 hours in enemy territory, 48 hours in neutral/allied territory, and 168 hours (1 week) in your own territory. However, there is a limited number of mines you can place in a sector. I have no idea what would really be balanced or not, but I think 100-200 would be a fair amount for now.

    Minelayer/Secondary
    Minelayer- 30 second reload. 5 starter DPS/block. Mines take 1 minute to activate, and gain 5 DPS/block every 10 minutes, capping at 20. Dumbfire in missile mode, 5x server speed. PD turrets have reduced accuracy. Targets enemy ships at 0.08 sectors. A standard minelayer for setting a minefield without major rush.
    Minelayer/Cannon- 20 second reload. 10 starter DPS/block. Mines take 20 seconds to activate, and gain 2 DPS/block every 3 minutes, capping at 16. Dumbfire in missile mode, 5x server speed. PD turrets have reduced accuracy. Targets enemy ships at 0.08 sectors. Used for setting up a quick but less effective minefield, or perhaps even for dropping mines mid-combat.
    Minelayer/Missile- 35 second reload. 5 starter DPS/block. Mines take 1 minute to activate, and gain 5 DPS/block every 5 minutes, capping at 20. Launches a cloud of smaller mines that spreads out and stops after a bit. Heatseeker in missile mode, 3x sever speed. PD turrets have slightly reduced accuracy. Targets enemy ships at 0.08 sectors. An alternative for setting up minefields quickly. Heatseekers have a higher chance of hitting a ship, but are more likely to get shot down by point defense or be distracted by chaff.
    Minelayer/Beam- 45 second reload. 5 starter DPS/block. Mines take 5 minutes to activate, and gain 5 DPS/block every 10 minutes, capping at 25. Lock-on in missile mode, 4x server speed. PD turrets have very slightly reduced accuracy. Targets ships at 0.1 sectors. A fast and longer activation range mine with higher alpha and DPS/block cap, but with higher chances of getting shot down.
    Minelayer/Pulse- 60 second reload. 5 starter DPS/block. Mines take 10 minutes to activate, and gain 10 DPS/block every 30 minutes, capping at 30. Dumbfire in missile mode, 5x server speed. PD turrets have reduced accuracy. Targets ships at 0.05 sectors. A powerful mine with a long cooldown and a long charge up time, this is usually reserved for defense of important areas. The decreased PD accuracy, high speed, and close activation range make this mine hard to avoid if you aren't in a dedicated mine-clearer.
    Minelayer/Minelayer- 20 second reload. 10 starter DPS/block. Mines take 20 seconds to activate. Mines are fired directly at 4.5x server speed, and will stick to whatever target they hit or stop upon reaching maximum range of 1.2 sectors until detonated or collided with and sticking to a ship. Maximum 12 mines fired from one ship at once, firing new ones deactivates existing ones without detonating them. Mines detonate upon right-click of the weapon. AI will automatically detonate mines upon contact with a ship.

    Primary/Minelayer
    Cannon/Minelayer- "Flak cannon." 1 second reload. 0.3 sectors range. 10x server speed. Explodes into a spray of cannon projectiles firing outward and to the sides upon reaching max range or upon colliding with an entity. Since there's no difference in reload time, you can customize your explosion distance by having different ratios of Cannon:Minelayer.
    Missile/Minelayer- 30 second reload. 1.2 sectors range. 3x server speed. Lock-on. Spends the first quarter (0.3 sectors) of its flight as a dumbfire missile, with greatly reduced PD accuracy, at which point it locks on to the target you initially locked onto and acts like a normal lock-on. Gives the upside of being able to use lock-on missiles with less chance of being shot down by PD, but has lower reload (and thus lower alpha) than Missile/Beam, and can have a much longer travel time if improperly accounting for lead.
    Beam/Minelayer- The awesome charge beam that every good space game needs. Drains half the power it needs while charging, then uses the other half upon release. Gains range and the beam increases in thickness based on damage. Begins to lose effectiveness past 75 seconds, and will automatically fire if charged for 90 seconds. Reload time is 0.5x the time spent charging. A versatile weapon that can switch between rapidfire and high alpha, at the cost of less effective reload times.
    Pulse/Minelayer- 15 second reload time. 1.2x server speed. Radius of 12. 0.25 range. Pulses continue expanding their radii after sticking to a ship until it reaches its maximum. Automatically collapses upon contact if the radius is already past 75% of its maximum. Expands to 75% by .08 sectors, then slowly expands to full.

    TL;DR- Minelayers and balance changes that people will probably argue about

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    I reckon missile guidance need to be select-able in the weapons menu.

    Want rapid fire guided missile?
    Want fast heatseeker?
    Want shotgun unguided or shotgun lock-on?

    You get it :p

    That way, just missile isn't useless, since it is actually the balance of reload, splash and damage.
     

    Jaaskinal

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    I reckon missile guidance need to be select-able in the weapons menu.

    Want rapid fire guided missile?
    Want fast heatseeker?
    Want shotgun unguided or shotgun lock-on?

    You get it :p

    That way, just missile isn't useless, since it is actually the balance of reload, splash and damage.
    The only thing I would have against that is the missile/missile lockon, maybe they're falling out of favor, but missile/missile is still moderately good, even when it just goes off and attacks random things.
     

    Lecic

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    I reckon missile guidance need to be select-able in the weapons menu.

    Want rapid fire guided missile?
    Want fast heatseeker?
    Want shotgun unguided or shotgun lock-on?

    You get it :p

    That way, just missile isn't useless, since it is actually the balance of reload, splash and damage.
    "just missile" wouldn't be useless if my changes were added, since it'd be possible to hit the enemy with missiles while PD is still active without resorting to lagging the server with hundreds of decoy swarmers.

    Also, if you want a single heatseeker or a faster firing lock-on, you can already do that by just slaving a beam or missile computer with no extra modules.
     
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    Interesting rebalance. I have a few things I would like clarification on, however.

    Make the spread tighter, increase projectile amount a bit, give it 12 DPS/block (to make up for missed shots) with the same power cost, and give it a symetrical spread pattern instead of the garbage pattern it has right now.
    Is this a static spread, or would that be dependant on the ratio of cannon:missile? Also, is the 12 DPS/block for each projectile, or is it spread across all the projectiles?

    Pulse/Missile- Fires a shotgun spray of small pulses. 8 second reload time. Radius of 4. 1.2x server speed. 0.25 sector range. Fully expanded at 0.15 sectors.
    Would this be a similar spray to that of the Cannon/Missile and Beam/Missile?

    Mines will last quite a long time compared to most other projectiles. Mines last 24 hours in enemy territory, 48 hours in neutral/allied territory, and 168 hours (1 week) in your own territory.
    Is this time ingame, or based on server uptime?
     

    Lecic

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    Is this a static spread, or would that be dependant on the ratio of cannon:missile? Also, is the 12 DPS/block for each projectile, or is it spread across all the projectiles?
    The ratio of cannon:missile is the amount of projectiles you get. So, the spread pattern would change depending on how many projectiles you're launching, but it'd always be roughly symmetrical and around the same tightness. Also, damage would be divided among all the projectiles, as it currently is. If you've got a shotgun cannon doing "100" damage a shot and the shotgun shoots 10 projectiles, it's really firing 10 10 damage shots.

    Would this be a similar spray to that of the Cannon/Missile and Beam/Missile?
    Yes, but it wouldn't be as tight.

    Is this time ingame, or based on server uptime?
    As far as I know here isn't any "ingame time," so, yes, it would be IRL/server time.
     

    Valiant70

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    This is definitely on the right track. I don't agree perfectly with everything here, but it's pretty good. I'll get more specific later.
    [DOUBLEPOST=1439686091,1439684366][/DOUBLEPOST]
    Missiles
    Missile- It's slow and it's dumbfire. Not a good combo for a weapon that can be shot down. So, point defense should have massively reduced accuracy when attempting to hit dumbfire missiles. Additionally, dumbfire missiles should accelerate. They should accelerate from their starter speed to 6x server max after travelling about 20% of their max range.
    Missile/Cannon- This is also slow and dumbfire, but it has reload time on its side. Point defense should have slightly reduced accuracy against these, and they should accelerate to 6x server max after travelling about 15% of their max range.
    Other missile types would not gain this acceleration ability, with the reasoning being they need to use their fuel for turns instead of acceleration.
    Missile/Beam- It's way too fast, especially with how high servers set their max speeds. Is that partially a server admin problem? Yes, but it should still be addressed. Speed should be dropped from just under 6x server max to 4.25x server speed.
    Excellent. Missile/missile could use some changes too, but it's far less of an issue in the current meta so it's okay to leave it alone.

    Cannons
    Cannon/Cannon- Currently, it's uncontested as the best cannon weapon. High rate of fire means missing is a non-issue, and it has equal DPS, range (besides sniper cannon), and punching ability to any other cannon weapon type. It should have these changes- 8 DPS/block instead of 10 with power costs remaining the same, and a slightly worse innate punch ability.
    Cannon/Missile- Here's all the explanation this weapon needs right now, from a thread I made on this issue in March-
    Make the spread tighter, increase projectile amount a bit, give it 12 DPS/block (to make up for missed shots) with the same power cost, and give it a symetrical spread pattern instead of the garbage pattern it has right now.
    Cannon/Pulse- The high alpha it has doesn't make up for the fact that it's easy to miss, and the diminishing ability to punch more layers with cannons means this weapon doesn't have a ton of use compared to other alpha weapons, which have higher reloads and a lesser chance to miss. Give it 12 DPS/block for the same power costs, and a slightly buffed punching ability.
    Making the cannon/missile spread completely symmetrical and non-random would be ideal. If truly random shot spread is not possible, then it should be treated more like the Spreadfire Cannon from Descent; not random, just angled.

    Beams
    All Damage Beams (besides Beam/Beam)- Increased range. 0.75 sector range for all of them.
    Beam/Missile- Similar problems to Cannon/Missile, except hitscan for a shotgun is even worse, since it means shots that miss have a 100% chance of not hitting anything. So, I propose much tighter spread, and explosive as innate instead of pierce. This will make Beam/Missile a good weapon for ripping off a chunk of hull, allowing you to hit the insides of ships easier.
    Power/Shield Drain- Longer range. Seriously, they're pretty balanced right now except for that pitiful range. Bring it up to 0.5 sector range like beams currently are.
    The only change I'd make to this is making beam/missile a non-piercing cone. Rather than several exploding points, damage would be distributed equally across blocks within the cone. The only potential problem with this is engine limitations.

    Pulses
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    Much better! The in-your-face OUCH gun.

    A potential way to add mines.
    undefined
    I think I need an unpopular opinion puffin meme. I think it would be better to improve cloaking mechanics and AI to facilitate player made mines (made of blocks) that shoot at stuff/explode/launch themselves.
     
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    Lecic

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    I think I need an unpopular opinion puffin meme. I think it would be better to improve cloaking mechanics and AI to facilitate player made mines (made of blocks) that shoot at stuff/explode/launch themselves.
    That would also be awesome, but it doesn't add all those cool secondary weapon types.
     
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    do we realy need more rebalancing? weapons got fucked as is in the latest update
     

    Lecic

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    do we realy need more rebalancing? weapons got fucked as is in the latest update
    "Do we need to rebalance weapons when an entire class of weapon and numerous other weapon combos are worthless for nearly everything?"

    I'm gonna say "yes."
     

    Valiant70

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    I will say I like what I've heard about the weapons balance now better than I liked it before explosions were reworked. Missiles were just unreasonably powerful compared to other weapon types. If anything PD is now a little OP. The counter to PD is a flight of small ships that rip them off the hull so bigger ships can get missiles through.
     
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    Keptick

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    I... I want this

    Seriously, I can't find anything wrong with this apart maybe from the PD thing but that's debatable. This suggestion is a rare gem.
     
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    dumbfire missile or missile/minelayers could be changed to torpedoes.

    they would be kind of Lock-on far less maneuvrable which can't re-target after they miss, with longer reloads time ( 60sec - 90sec ), short range ( 1.000/750m ) and slow ( 1 or 1,5x max standart server speed ( overdrived ship would just run away from them ) ), but don't requires much power, and are very powerful ( 15-20 dps ), this way it could make squadrons of small bomber ships useful against big ship ( they rush, fire, run away to reload, rush again.... ), but would be far less efficient against smaller more manoeuvrable fighter, or even destroyer/light cruiser running at full speed

    they could be harder to kill with PD turret than missiles, because they would need to be hit by a % of the damages they would do ( a torpedo dealing 100.000 damages would need to be hit by 5-10 damages to be destroyed. ( would require bigger PD turret )
     

    Lecic

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    dumbfire missile or missile/minelayers could be changed to torpedoes.

    they would be kind of Lock-on far less maneuvrable which can't re-target after they miss, with longer reloads time ( 60sec - 90sec ), short range ( 1.000/750m ) and slow ( 1 or 1,5x max standart server speed ( overdrived ship would just run away from them ) ), but don't requires much power, and are very powerful ( 15-20 dps ), this way it could make squadrons of small bomber ships useful against big ship ( they rush, fire, run away to reload, rush again.... ), but would be far less efficient against smaller more manoeuvrable fighter, or even destroyer/light cruiser running at full speed

    they could be harder to kill with PD turret than missiles, because they would need to be hit by a % of the damages they would do ( a torpedo dealing 100.000 damages would need to be hit by 5-10 damages to be destroyed. ( would require bigger PD turret )
    Small ships with high alpha weapons are already very powerful against larger ships. You're just using the wrong weapon type. Beam/Pulse/(Ion) is a fantastic weapon for destroying a larger ships shields or armor HP.