A large, educated Public Chat argument on warp, Gates VS FTL beacons

[MrNature72]

Beneath this is the top of probably the most intelligent FTL travel argument ever to take place. It's slow to start, with a lot of other people, but eventually it goes between me and forge, with myself supporting FTL beacons and Forge supporting gates.



Forge was an excellent person to argue with. We both attacked eachother with facts, concepts, ideas, and reasonable postulates. Even though, in the end, Nodes come out, I would like to say Forge is one of the best members I have ever talked to, and he deserves possible more praise than my end of the argument, for in the end agreeing and coming to the peaceful conclusion. That is not something easy to do, and I praise him infinitely for that.

13:33MrNature72

You know, to be honest, I want a MOSTLY infinite universe.

13:33Comr4de

there needs to be an actual reason to use FTL

13:33MrNature72

But I would love to see a galactic center.

13:33FORGE9unsc705

can missiles rustle jimmies?

13:33MrNature72

And a galactic edge.

13:33Krosulhah

Fire the jimmyrustler cannon!

13:33katCrusader

Yes





Everything can rustle jimmies

13:33EpicFailLord123

lol

13:33MrNature72

Dude seriously can we stop with the jimmies.

13:33Forge_Meiser

you could make a warp gate by attatching these warp blocks in a circular formation to a station

13:33FORGE9unsc705

can plexdoors resist rustling?

13:33Krosulhah

I dont even know what jimmy rustling is.

13:33MrNature72

Well you see, making "gates" causes a very uneven rate.

13:34Apophys

I was thinking about it being done like stargates. Where you have to actually build the gate to warp through.

13:34Krosulhah

So meh v:P

13:34katCrusader

Eh, I hate structures that require x blocks placed in y pattern

13:34MrNature72

Because making gates of the same size would be difficult.

13:34Forge_Meiser

that's what I mean

13:34katCrusader

Personally I'd make it a projector

13:34MrNature72

Just having "nodes" would be better.

13:34Forge_Meiser

you build 2 stations

13:34Comr4de

yeah

13:34MrNature72

Where you warp in some distance from the node.

13:34Comr4de

gates are the best option tbh

13:34Krosulhah

I would like the gates

13:34tn44

I hate the idea of gates

13:34MrNature72

If there are gates, it needs to be a strict set of them.

13:34Forge_Meiser

then make identical warp rings on each end

13:34tn44

Or predetermined jumps

13:34EpicFailLord123

whos psyched about the new weapons?

13:34Krosulhah

Because there is nothing better than having your gate suddenly turn on

13:34katCrusader

More projector blocks = bigger field

13:34MrNature72

Like you place the gate block, and give it resources, and it builds itself.

13:34FORGE9unsc705

everyone

13:34Krosulhah

And you be like

13:34MrNature72

But I would prefer FTL Nodes.

13:34Comr4de

by gates, I mean procedurally generated gates like shops

13:34Krosulhah

O shiznit, who might be coming

13:34Forge_Meiser

and when it's ready, you can just go through

13:34MrNature72

Hm.

13:35Comr4de

where they spawn on the edge of systms

13:35Apophys

Gates should be tuned by block count.





And direction facing

13:35MrNature72

Well then shops should be MUCH more well stocked.





And a lot rarer.

13:35Forge_Meiser

and pick your destination

13:35Comr4de

it was a fuckin comparison

13:35FORGE9unsc705

13:35MrNature72

Honestly, I think shops should be more like massive stations.

13:35Forge_Meiser

for example

13:35MrNature72

Or ancient temples.

13:35katCrusader

Yeah shops look like ass right now lol

13:35Apophys

Sigh, reposts.

13:35EpicFailLord123

lol

13:35MrNature72

Either way, I think FTL nodes would be better.





But gates come in a close second.

13:35katCrusader

Mmmm cold pizza

13:35Forge_Meiser

if A is here, B is over here, and C is

13:36FORGE9unsc705

13:36Forge_Meiser

over here

13:36MrNature72

And I don't support ship-bound "use anywhere" FTL.

13:36EpicFailLord123

is there a prebiuld with the new weapons on it?

13:36MrNature72

That will just cause issues.





NO





THE WEAPONS AREN"T COMING FOR A LONG TIME

13:36katCrusader

Ship-bound ftl is actually the most realistic

13:36EpicFailLord123

I WANT THE WEAPONS NOWWWW

13:36Forge_Meiser

probably

13:36MrNature72

Well yeah, but also the worst gameplay wise.

13:36katCrusader

True

13:36Forge_Meiser

the only problem

13:36MrNature72

Since letting everyone and their grandma FTL boost all over the place leaves a really unexplored universe.

13:36EpicFailLord123

shotgun cannon

13:36Krosulhah

Actually

13:36MrNature72

It's like game with too easy fast travel.

13:36Apophys

What's the problem with wormhole gates?

13:36Krosulhah

FTL is completely un realistic

13:37katCrusader

Wormholes... are overused

13:37Krosulhah

As time dilates for you.

13:37EpicFailLord123

SWARM MISSILES

13:37Forge_Meiser

seriously, wormholes would be much more clever

13:37Krosulhah

and will never ever let you go that fast.

13:37MrNature72

I like FTL nodes, because it still supports manual exploration.





And would be a LOT easier to implement than gates.

13:37Forge_Meiser

if anyone could warp from a battle, it would be too op

13:37MrNature72

The node would consist of 2 parts: projection and transfer range.

13:37Apophys

^

13:37EpicFailLord123







SWARM MISSILES

13:38Forge_Meiser

a fixed warp conduit would fix this

13:38Krosulhah

I would like the gates

13:38MrNature72

Projection range would mean how far ships can utilize the node.

13:38Krosulhah

Because gates just seem epic

13:38MrNature72

Well yeah but they'd be ass hard to impliment.





Easy if we just walked everywhere.

13:38EpicFailLord123

TSAR BOMBA

13:38katCrusader

While I wait for the pictures to do my job lol

13:38EpicFailLord123

NOVA MINES

13:38Forge_Meiser

tou would have to build them in a square

13:38katCrusader

I'mma make a suggestion thread

13:38MrNature72

But we're talking about for massive ships and titans.

13:38credulo

I would only implement some small portals which could be created by the players themselves. Ships with more then 2k of mass wont be albe to pass by

13:38Krosulhah

EPIC

13:38EpicFailLord123

CARPETBOMBING LASERS

13:38Krosulhah

STOP USING CAPS WILL YOU.

13:38Forge_Meiser

excellent kat

13:38Apophys

How would gates be hard? It's just an instant nether portal.

13:38MrNature72

Well... yes.

13:39EpicFailLord123

SNIPER CANNON

13:39MrNature72

But we aren't just transporting people.

13:39credulo

like Taychon - The fringe

13:39Forge_Meiser

exactly my point apothys

13:39Krosulhah

It would be easier than a ftl thing for a shi[

13:39MrNature72

We can NOT use a singular size gate, like in Minecraft.

13:39Krosulhah

*ship





Oh no





I mean a gate you can make yourselg





*yourself

13:39Apophys

We are transporting ships whose core touches the active plane. Easy.

13:39MrNature72

And letting everyone build gates their own size would fuck everything up.

13:39Fineleyconc

your lag

13:39katCrusader

That's just mojang being lazy tbh, there have been plenty of mods that make scaling nether portals

13:39Forge_Meiser

it would have to be made of warp blocks

13:39MrNature72

Well yeah, but this is on a whole new scale.

13:39Forge_Meiser

and perfectly square

13:40Apophys

Scaling nether portals are in the current version

13:40MrNature72

Nodes would just be easier.

13:40katCrusader

Oh really?

13:40MrNature72

A lot easier.

13:40Apophys

Go up to 23*23

13:40katCrusader

About time lol





Anyways brb

13:40Fineleyconc

*ecough*

13:40MrNature72

Yeah, but in this game, they'd have to scale up to 5,000 5,000

13:40credulo

that's my point , gates would only allow 2k mass ships or lesser to pass by

13:40MrNature72

crazy sizes.





Well then that's the issue.





NO ONE builds little ships like that.

13:40Forge_Meiser

really, it could be any size as long as it was square

13:40credulo

think of the portal network from Tachyon - The fringe

13:40Apophys

Yeah, good luck trying to warp a titan.

13:40MrNature72

Nodes would be a lot easier.

13:40tn44

I do

13:40MrNature72

Like Mass Relays.

13:41tn44

I build plenty of ships 2k or less





:\

13:41MrNature72

Once your in range, you can get flung to other nodes.

13:41Apophys

I almost entirely build 2k or less.

13:41MrNature72

Larger nodes allows for larger ships.

13:41Fineleyconc

yes nature. if you really are into doomlag

13:41MrNature72

So larger ships would have to rely on more intricate, larger nodes.





Or just nodes in general.





The larger the node is the longer the range.





Well it would cause HELLA less lag than gates.

13:41Apophys

O rly?

13:42MrNature72

Since you could be teleported anywhere in around the node.





Not just one focal point for everyone warping.

13:42credulo

on Tachyon - The fringe the star patrol could simply send damm titans to solve missions but they send fighters to do so bcs they can use the portals and arrive at places faster

13:42Forge_Meiser

my thinking is that you could build a square warp ring and if the ship fits inside, it can warp

13:42EpicFailLord123

lawl

13:42MrNature72

Well yeah, but what if 2 ships try to warp at the same time?

13:42TheImperialDonut

Just build literal shapes? if the ship doesn't fit through it gets stuck in the gate..

13:42Fineleyconc

look. teleporting a ship is just changing the coords. no big deal. exept if you do it many times in a row. like your nodes would

13:42Forge_Meiser

it could even be 3 different sizes

13:42TheImperialDonut

just connect those two points of space directly

13:42Forge_Meiser

or more

13:42MrNature72

Thats the issue though, the nodes wouldn't need different sizes.





Fact is, with gates, they limit the size.

13:43Forge_Meiser

just you have to build 2 identical ones

13:43MrNature72

Someone will build bigger.

13:43Forge_Meiser

for them to connect

13:43TheImperialDonut

^





yes

13:43MrNature72

Well then that also is a pain, because then it's only 2 gates.

13:43Apophys

Identical in block count AND direction facing.

13:43MrNature72

Nodes would let you go to ANY node in range.

13:43Forge_Meiser

if you have more than 2 of the same size

13:43MrNature72

Well what if they're utilized at the same time?





Teleporting two-three titans into the same spot will murder the server.

13:43Apophys

Just spawn the ship nearby...

13:43Forge_Meiser

you can select a ring from the pop up menu

13:44MrNature72

Then it's not a gate.





It's a node.





Or beacon, whichever name you prefer.

13:44Apophys

O....k.... A node that utilizes gates.

13:44MrNature72

What, no.

13:44Forge_Meiser

you could warp 3 titans at once but

13:44MrNature72

Then you get into the issue of big ass lines.

13:44Forge_Meiser

it would say ring already in use

13:44MrNature72

What if a titan gets stuck?





Then that gate goes offline.

13:44Apophys

If it can't fit it doesn't warp

13:44MrNature72

And clogs up the entire game.





With a node, it would just be yes/no.





No getting stuck.





No size issues.

13:45Fineleyconc

youll prolly have to keep the area free, like in docking

13:45Apophys

^

13:45MrNature72

Just give people the ability to build FTL beacons.





The bigger they are, the farther they can reach other FTL beacons.

13:45TheImperialDonut

You're assuming the gameworld works like the real world, while in fact you can make both methods work any way you can imagine

13:45MrNature72

So you could have micro FTL beacons that let people go across the solar system, and massive, faction-built ones that let people shoot across the galaxy.

13:46TheImperialDonut

the only limit is your imagination

13:46MrNature72

I'm just saying beacons have infinitely less limiting factors than gates.

13:46Fineleyconc

and the amount of cake you have left

13:46Allaric

Hey guys, Im new here, so... I have to pay something to play online or is a free game?

13:46Forge_Meiser

my method works both ways guys

13:46MrNature72

Free, right now.

13:46TheImperialDonut

You want to limit them to prevent folks from only ever teleporting

13:46MrNature72

B2P later.





Correct.

13:46Allaric

Ok, thanks mate ^^

13:46MrNature72

Which is why I don't want FTL in ships, like, super-fast travel anytime.





You have to build a node, and then build another node wherever you want to go.





You have to do the exploring manually.

13:47TheImperialDonut

whats wrong with gates?

13:47Forge_Meiser

anyone know about portal?

13:47MrNature72

And larger nodes would be able to transport larger ships, up to a certain size. once you reach a certain node size it lets any ship go through.





Because gates have a lot of issues.





Size, for one.

13:47TheImperialDonut

no they dont

 

[Keptick]

you should honestly remove all the pictures.

 

[Zeveryn]

Id say making gates makes it way more... Fun?

Thing is u need to construct these gates on your own meaning you got to travel to a set area the very first time and create this gate and connect it to the \"entrace/exit\" gate. makes it more fun i think,

 

[Forge_Meiser]

could we start working out ideas for the warp node? seems like a good idea.

 

[MrNature72]

But I have other things I need to do in the millenia.

 

[MrNature72]

I like the idae of personal gates, maybe linking stations to some, far off, secret station. But not for ship-travel. That\'s just too complicated.


Yes, gates are cooler. And they\'re funner. But they have such a slew of issues on the LARGE scale that it would be more trouble than its worth.



For transporting people? Like, 5x5 gates? I have no qualms with those.

 

[MrNature72]

I would like to hear peoples concept on the \"FTL Beacon\" or \"FTL Node\".

 

[jzimmerman4]

Personally I believe there should be natural spawning worm holes and the gates that you can construct. The only problem with gates it that they would be over used and everyone would only travel if they had a gate.

 

[Heillos]

What I got from the discussion about how nodes should work is that they will require a node --> node connection too, meaning that you will need to travel to, and build nodes at, both destinations to enable travel between them. So, having got the point of your post out of the way, I guess we can go back to appreciating the versatility of \'nodes\'?

 

[Sven_The_Slayer]

Honestly that long stream of random chat was impossible to follow and full of spam, I just gave up.... trim the fat next time.

From what I did manage to gather, the \"Node\" concept is basically the same as the \"Gate\" except as to how you enter. A node creates an area you just have to be in/near in order to make an FTL jump while a gate is a structure that has to be enterable by the ships.

Both systems would fight gigantism, although gates would do it more so because constructing gates seems like it would be the harder of the two but I personally prefer gates.

 

[Legolas170]

If they are like mass relays, I\'m all for it. As long as the gate/beacon becomes an important war resource, I really don\'t care

 

[BorgCollective]

Meh i still prefer gates and all this \"nodes will have less lag\" im pretty sure the game will have to check to see if there is a empty space big enough for the warping ship so it will just be as laggy maybe even more potentially for warping ships because it will have a bigger area to check for ships also you guys started off well and ended up making an idea that might aswell be a FTL drive on a ship.

 

[Krosulhah]

Thanks for including jimmy rustling!

I want gates!

 

[NeonSturm]

I prefer Gates or Slingshot constructions, because this requires you to actually build \"streets\" in your galaxy.



The advantage of Slingshot-1way-Gates is, that you don\'t need any counterpart and can\'t make a trap that easily on the end (it could be a bit different each time and you can use cloak to evade most traps)



For gates, just require the exit AND entrance to have your ships box size - this could reduce the gigantism a bit.

But I want Trader-Guild FFA-Gates for the core galaxies then :P

 

[Vyor]

There is a reason almost every sifi world uses nodes or ship FTL, the stargate ship gates have to be massive, and destroy everything in front of it to work properly. Take away either of those properties and they become useless... Also, if they have to be the same size, how do you easily make one? Wouldn\'t the difficulty of making it defeat the purpose...

 

[NeonSturm]

We already have docking areas. Just imagine the center of your portal-water (or whatever you build your gates from) as a dock and check if the ship can dock in the entrance and exit.

 

[Vyor]

do you link portals? You would have to have a diagram, and what if there is more than one portal of the same size, or frequency?

 

[NeonSturm]

I\'ve got some idea now.

You set a gate\'s time offset and frequency - the higher the frequency, the more power you will need.

• All your gates which are in one network use the same time offset+frequency combination.
• If your frequency is 0.017Hz (1/60), you will get the possibility to warp only every minute.
• The time offset\'s max value is equal to the number of miliseconds you have to wait between each warp possibility (1/frequenzy).
  
  Imagine every gate starts their frequency wave at midnight and they run coherent. You can\'t distinguish between destinations.
• The offset is the time difference between the messurement wave (offset=0, same frequency) and your wave.

[*]If another player enters the same frequency and offset as you, you either jump to your gate or the other gate - whichever is closer / has more energy.

• 
  2 players can set up 2 links with same offset+frequency from -9 -9 -9 to -5 -5 -5 and 9 9 9 to 5 5 5 without them intercepting each other, but if they are from -9 -9 -9 to 5 5 5 and 9 9 9 to -5 -5 -5, you will come out of the other player\'s gate.

[*]Offset+Frequency of some \"public/neutral\" gates may be well known, but others may enter the same values and redirect you into a trap if you try to go there and the trap is closer to you.