1block starter weapons

[Daniel L.]

The hand laser provided to players does about 10dps that's a lot for a tiny hand gun! considering that attempting to get that rate of fire with the smallest possible block based gun will inevitably nab you only about 1-3 dps! now i know that maybe its just a variable system and that the custom guns you can make in the game can vary depending on how well they are built, But if built extraordinarily well like the hand laser apparently is you might get a single block 360 degree cannon thingy with a decent rate of fire and a DPS of between 50-100 which isn't bad for one block... Now i know what your thinking: That it will be OP, But really it wouldn't because each block would require a large amount of power compared to the amount taken by the same dps of normal cannon. Also it wouldn't be capable of AMS making such other things as flares and chaff necessary for smaller vessels, Another reason why it wouldn't be OP is that the cannon version would be preset to have a 50% slave effect of another cannon, But you wouldn't be able to change that, There would also be rocket and beam versions, Rockets would have limited ammo providing 1 per block and requiring the player to re-arm at a neutral or allied shop before using again, These rockets would do reasonable missile damage but too much, With a large enough DPS to leave craters in armor the rocket launcher could be pretty formidable, But keep in mind that it is dumb fire and any ship that isn't too large can dodge them, and those that are too large usually don't have much to fear, The beams would be very energy hungry and powerful but with a 75% ion effect it would be greatly diminished in the hull damage department.

These weapons wouldn't phase out the current custom guns because they require more power than the custom to gain the same damage and they are set in their effects and slaved systems making them impossible to customize beyond choosing a color, Also their damage could be easily exceeded by a custom cannon built well and would mean that while not OP it would make a good weapon for beginners or ships that are too small to fit full size turrets.

 

[Aynslei]

If they are cheap enough for a new player, they are cheap enough for spamming masses of drones with them. If I don't have to have a good chunk of the drone be weapon modules than I just fill them cheap easy to produce power blocks.

I don't think it is a good idea, or could be balanced well.

 

[Daniel L.]

If they are cheap enough for a new player, they are cheap enough for spamming masses of drones with them. If I don't have to have a good chunk of the drone be weapon modules than I just fill them cheap easy to produce power blocks.

I don't think it is a good idea, or could be balanced well.

Actually it wouldnt be such a problem because these weapons would still require far more power to run than the default, You would need at least a drone sized ship to carry one of these weapons which would in many ways just void the whole problem.

 

[Heillos]

Actually it wouldnt be such a problem because these weapons would still require far more power to run than the default, You would need at least a drone sized ship to carry one of these weapons which would in many ways just void the whole problem.

The issue Aynslei raises is specifically that drones could use these weapons. Your statement doesn't contradict this, so we're still left with the issue that drones could be cheaply outfitted with far more effective weapons than usual, and then fielded in the usual large numbers, resulting in any imbalance which is present being significantly exacerbated.

I'd say the balance behind the astronaut-wielded laser being 10 DPS is that there's just an astronaut holding it. Slow-moving, can't hide, low HP, etc. Given that it is primarily used for ground combat, it shouldn't be an indicator of how powerful single-block ship weapons should be; I think that trying to make it such would create imbalance in ship-vs-ship combat (small ships suddenly more powerful; multiply this by the number of drones traditionally deployed to reach "swarming" point, which is at least 30 iirc, and you have a significant issue).

 

[Daniel L.]

The issue Aynslei raises is specifically that drones could use these weapons. Your statement doesn't contradict this, so we're still left with the issue that drones could be cheaply outfitted with far more effective weapons than usual, and then fielded in the usual large numbers, resulting in any imbalance which is present being significantly exacerbated.

I'd say the balance behind the astronaut-wielded laser being 10 DPS is that there's just an astronaut holding it. Slow-moving, can't hide, low HP, etc. Given that it is primarily used for ground combat, it shouldn't be an indicator of how powerful single-block ship weapons should be; I think that trying to make it such would create imbalance in ship-vs-ship combat (small ships suddenly more powerful; multiply this by the number of drones traditionally deployed to reach "swarming" point, which is at least 30 iirc, and you have a significant issue).

It would also be quite expensive in credits.

 

[Mork2]

How to exploit
It is easy to figure out how to abuse the above system somewhat making it hard to balance.

Many docked guns with core, rail docker, power generator, this new gun, wireless link. On the ship side each one would have to have a wireless logic module and a mounting rail block. Get say 100 of them all docked up and get a 100 waffle gun for 7 blocks each plus a trigger block for 701 blocks for 100 times the base damage of the single block gun. This would get around most of the config limits and this is assuming your only allowed one per structure. You could also just drop the wireless block for manual fire control and use a bobby ai to aim and fire each of them.

With just one gun limit per structure you would have to have a limit of 70dps per single block gun or you can exploit it.

If you allow two per structure you get 200 guns for 801 blocks, break even to not abuse is 40dps per single block gun

Three is 300 guns for 901 blocks. break even is 30dps per single block gun.

It gets worse as you increase the limit of guns per entity.

Power Non-issue
And while it is technically suppose to use more power than normal weapons each one of those have 50k energy each with a very slow regen rate. This applies to and is like every single small turret or drone each. If the single block gun uses very large amounts of power to cause this not to work you were better off with a the existing block weapon system anyway.

Hand Laser Damage
The hand weapons is doing 66+dps as its rate of fire is a little over 6 and 2/3 shots per second at 10 damage each. But there is absolutely only one of them you can use at a time and at high personal risk.

Existing weapons
Every single cannon or beam block generates 10dps each you just need a computer to go with it. So the worst dps is 5 for a one block weapon with a computer attached and it only gets better after that. Trying to use more power to increase damage is already there with the overdrive blocks. Using 4 blocks you can create a 60dps damage weapon or 15dps/block cannon/overdrive plus the computers.

My standard anti person gun is 6 blocks total for the weapon. 1 cannon computer, 1 overdrive computer, 2 cannons, 2 overdrives. Damage is 120 per shot per second. Enough to kill a player with each shot. Power usage is somewhat higher I think its 2000 energy per shot. I think its the base damage of 40 times 10 for weapon power times 5 for overdrive. Overall is 20dps per block.

Multiple entity block limits to stop being OP
At the moment you can only limit number of systems per entity. The game treats them as separate objects and in the case of rails docking systems just treats them as attached and they can interact. There is no limit set for an entity and all docked entities connected to it. While you could set something to limit to a number its hard to actually achieve as you would have to scan all the entities docked together if someone adds a extra limited block to any of the attached structures or lose them to damage. You would also have to block docking of structures and all linked structures that would exceed the limit if docked. While it might be possible to code this it wouldn't be easy to say the least. Stopping it being exploited this way would make it useless for drones and turrets as you would have to dock multiple of them to station or ship.

My conclusion
You have thought out a relatively balanced system but its still open to exploiting unless the damage is seriously nerfed to the point that your almost better off with the existing weapons. And the programing required to not allow it to be exploited would kill its usage unless the entity in question wasn't going to dock with another entity. I like the idea but I don't see how they can implement it actually being useful and without it being exploited to be overpowering. There has been a number of posts about stronger small weapon blocks each of them suffer from these basic limitations and problems.

 

[Daniel L.]

How to exploit
It is easy to figure out how to abuse the above system somewhat making it hard to balance.

Many docked guns with core, rail docker, power generator, this new gun, wireless link. On the ship side each one would have to have a wireless logic module and a mounting rail block. Get say 100 of them all docked up and get a 100 waffle gun for 7 blocks each plus a trigger block for 701 blocks for 100 times the base damage of the single block gun. This would get around most of the config limits and this is assuming your only allowed one per structure. You could also just drop the wireless block for manual fire control and use a bobby ai to aim and fire each of them.

With just one gun limit per structure you would have to have a limit of 70dps per single block gun or you can exploit it.

If you allow two per structure you get 200 guns for 801 blocks, break even to not abuse is 40dps per single block gun

Three is 300 guns for 901 blocks. break even is 30dps per single block gun.

It gets worse as you increase the limit of guns per entity.

Power Non-issue
And while it is technically suppose to use more power than normal weapons each one of those have 50k energy each with a very slow regen rate. This applies to and is like every single small turret or drone each. If the single block gun uses very large amounts of power to cause this not to work you were better off with a the existing block weapon system anyway.

Hand Laser Damage
The hand weapons is doing 66+dps as its rate of fire is a little over 6 and 2/3 shots per second at 10 damage each. But there is absolutely only one of them you can use at a time and at high personal risk.

Existing weapons
Every single cannon or beam block generates 10dps each you just need a computer to go with it. So the worst dps is 5 for a one block weapon with a computer attached and it only gets better after that. Trying to use more power to increase damage is already there with the overdrive blocks. Using 4 blocks you can create a 60dps damage weapon or 15dps/block cannon/overdrive plus the computers.

My standard anti person gun is 6 blocks total for the weapon. 1 cannon computer, 1 overdrive computer, 2 cannons, 2 overdrives. Damage is 120 per shot per second. Enough to kill a player with each shot. Power usage is somewhat higher I think its 2000 energy per shot. I think its the base damage of 40 times 10 for weapon power times 5 for overdrive. Overall is 20dps per block.

Multiple entity block limits to stop being OP
At the moment you can only limit number of systems per entity. The game treats them as separate objects and in the case of rails docking systems just treats them as attached and they can interact. There is no limit set for an entity and all docked entities connected to it. While you could set something to limit to a number its hard to actually achieve as you would have to scan all the entities docked together if someone adds a extra limited block to any of the attached structures or lose them to damage. You would also have to block docking of structures and all linked structures that would exceed the limit if docked. While it might be possible to code this it wouldn't be easy to say the least. Stopping it being exploited this way would make it useless for drones and turrets as you would have to dock multiple of them to station or ship.

My conclusion
You have thought out a relatively balanced system but its still open to exploiting unless the damage is seriously nerfed to the point that your almost better off with the existing weapons. And the programing required to not allow it to be exploited would kill its usage unless the entity in question wasn't going to dock with another entity. I like the idea but I don't see how they can implement it actually being useful and without it being exploited to be overpowering. There has been a number of posts about stronger small weapon blocks each of them suffer from these basic limitations and problems.

I actually think that might be a good thing. Because the purpose of big ships should be to have devastating firepower capable of deciding fates of planets. While mass drones could be used to harass and destroy the enemy, Big ships if undefended or properly build could be destroyed by swarms of drones, But that could still be solved by a drone escort, Or building big ships specifically designed to destroy little drones with fast moving rapid fire turrets. Besides a well built capital ship with lots of fast moving rapid fire turrets should have nothing to fear.

If your ship gets killed by a swarm of drones then you need to build a better ship.

 

[Mork2]

Actually from the testing other people have done, drones swarms are killers. A number of posts they quote as 20% mass of the ship in equal mass of drones will kill it with the present systems as tested easily.

Just setup drones with a cannon/missile, cannon/cannon smallest possible and a cannon/beam for damage. The drone will stay at extreme range of the cannon/beam with its AI.

As its a small target the homing or lock on missiles pretty much has to fly directly at it and the cannon/cannon and cannon/missile will take out most of the incoming missiles and that's without putting a dedicated AMS turret on it.

At cannon/beam range the drone is such a small target that your bobby AI is unlikely to hit it. (you might at that range but you can only focus on one at a time) and it has a much higher chance of hitting your larger ship.

If you use large weapons you have less of chance of chances of hitting them but when you do you will punch right through. If you use lots of small rapid fire weapons to generate hits the hits are so small you can't punch through the advanced armour on the front or the small shields. Advanced armour has atleast 1000EHP before AHP and you would need a cannon/cannon 1000 blocks in size just to break one of those per hit. A small 50 block cannon/cannon system would have to score 20 hits on the same block of advanced armour to maybe kill it.

Between all of that and around 20% of your ship mass in drones is not good already.

You pretty much have to jump out or reverse full speed and kite them or out mass them by a very large margin already far higher than 5:1

 

[Daniel L.]

Actually from the testing other people have done, drones swarms are killers. A number of posts they quote as 20% mass of the ship in equal mass of drones will kill it with the present systems as tested easily.

Just setup drones with a cannon/missile, cannon/cannon smallest possible and a cannon/beam for damage. The drone will stay at extreme range of the cannon/beam with its AI.

As its a small target the homing or lock on missiles pretty much has to fly directly at it and the cannon/cannon and cannon/missile will take out most of the incoming missiles and that's without putting a dedicated AMS turret on it.

At cannon/beam range the drone is such a small target that your bobby AI is unlikely to hit it. (you might at that range but you can only focus on one at a time) and it has a much higher chance of hitting your larger ship.

If you use large weapons you have less of chance of chances of hitting them but when you do you will punch right through. If you use lots of small rapid fire weapons to generate hits the hits are so small you can't punch through the advanced armour on the front or the small shields. Advanced armour has atleast 1000EHP before AHP and you would need a cannon/cannon 1000 blocks in size just to break one of those per hit. A small 50 block cannon/cannon system would have to score 20 hits on the same block of advanced armour to maybe kill it.

Between all of that and around 20% of your ship mass in drones is not good already.

You pretty much have to jump out or reverse full speed and kite them or out mass them by a very large margin already far higher than 5:1

I really believe that there should be an advantage to everything, And the advantage of a capital ship is mass destruction in seconds. while drones fight capital ships and can destroy them... Seems pretty fair.

 

[Aynslei]

What is so hard to understand about a 1 block weapon that has equal damage to a large group of weapon modules and several computers not being balanced?

If all I needed is the one module and one comp, then that lets me just surround it in thick advanced armor, if power cost are incredibly high it wont do anything to help new players out, if its cheap to produce for new players that means I can have tons of them, if I can use them on turrets even better since I wont waste any space on rail enhancers.

There are way too many advantages and not nearly enough downsides to such a block being in game.
You propose this is to help new players and small ships, but to not be broken they would need insane power costs, be hard to manufacture, be limited in some other fashion (like high mass). All of those ways of balance would make it harder for small ships and new players, but trivial for large ships and established players. Now they get some OP gun to kill more noobs with.

 

[cyberus111]

Ya know, a "starter weapon" isn't a bad idea, along with a "starter" salvage array.

Now given that we all know that this could be abused and exploited it would have to be a part of a "Drop on Death" revision in that some things never drop, and can't be transferred, and you can only have one.

 

[Keptick]

1 weapon block = 10dps (damage per second)


Just saying.

 

[PizzaPress]

...
Perhaps we can just make computers cost less across the board, and give a little bit more stuff to a starting player?
Would be a nice change.

 

[Lecic]

...
Perhaps we can just make computers cost less across the board, and give a little bit more stuff to a starting player?
Would be a nice change.

Server owners can control what they give new players.