[12th of May] Schine Q&A Answers

[Nebulon-B_Frigate_FTW]

If by "accuracy (falling off at longer ranges)" you mean they lose the lock-on ability after a certain range, then this might work. AI accuracy is irrelevant if a human is aiming the weapon. Programmed-in accuracy on a manually fired weapon (e.g. recoil) is extremely irritating.
Having a long-range weapon that does higher damage than cannons, locks-on and instantly hits it target is very bad for balance, no matter how much power is required to fire it. At least one of those 4 behaviors has to go.

In my (not very experienced) opinion it should be:

Missiles
Damage: High
Range: Long
Pros: Area of effect damage
Cons: Countered by chance to dodge/intercept with AMS, long re-load time.
Summary: Good for damaging large, slow or stationary targets when fired in waves or when AMS have been taken-out. Good for distracting/scattering small, highly maneuverable targets. Makes big holes in things when the shields go down.

Cannons
Damage: Medium
Range: Medium
Pros: Acid damage, good against slow/stationary targets
Cons: Difficult to target small/agile targets at a distance
Summary: Good for applying continual damage against large and stationary targets at mid-range, and small, highly maneuverable targets at shorter ranges. Can strip armor once the shields have gone down.


Beams
Damage: Low
Range: Short
Pros: Instant hit, lock-on
Cons: No acid or AoE damage.
Summary: Great against shields and small, highly maneuverable targets when at close range. Not great against armor or larger targets with spread-out systems (unless you get a lucky penetrating shot).

I actually mistyped, forgetting the word damage there for falloff. Anywas, I think cannons as medium is a contradiction due to their low accuracy. If beams are limited to short ranges, cannons will just overtake them except in exceptionally limited roles as emergency PD, but at low damage, even that would suck.

 

[Hidden Porpoise]

I didn't stop playing because they changed anything, I stopped because better games came out and StarMade has nothing to stand out with. The only thing that it has that something like Avorion or From The Depth don't is low level fabrication and mining, but those are the least functional parts of the game and they are most of the time totally non working.

In SM guns just throw numbers at things so the best protection is the game's terrible damage models. In Avorion a ship's shield isn't on the hull and some shots will pass through it resulting in less all or nothing. In FtD a shell's impact force, armor pen, speed, fuse type, and payload are all tracked so things matter and secondary batteries have a reason to exist.

SM has nothing going for it, no real direction, no clear goals, and it's slower than anything in its category to actually do anything. Why would I play it?

 

[Spyrelle]

I didn't stop playing because they changed anything, I stopped because better games came out and StarMade has nothing to stand out with. The only thing that it has that something like Avorion or From The Depth don't is low level fabrication and mining, but those are the least functional parts of the game and they are most of the time totally non working.

In SM guns just throw numbers at things so the best protection is the game's terrible damage models. In Avorion a ship's shield isn't on the hull and some shots will pass through it resulting in less all or nothing. In FtD a shell's impact force, armor pen, speed, fuse type, and payload are all tracked so things matter and secondary batteries have a reason to exist.

SM has nothing going for it, no real direction, no clear goals, and it's slower than anything in its category to actually do anything. Why would I play it?

Nothing going for it? That's complete hyperbole, From The Dephs doesn't have planets; Avorion's ships have no interior from what I understand, also the sheilds are no longer hull-skins, if you're going to critisize a game you own, you ought to play it; I'd say you're only limiting your opitions and making up your mind prematurely.

I mean no offence, I'm only pointing out what I'm seeing.

 

[Nebulon-B_Frigate_FTW]

Nothing going for it? That's complete hyperbole, From The Dephs doesn't have planets; Avorion's ships have no interior from what I understand, also the sheilds are no longer hull-skins, if you're going to critisize a game you own, you ought to play it; I'd say you're only limiting your opitions and making up your mind prematurely.

I mean no offence, I'm only pointing out what I'm seeing.

Avorion has no astronaut mode, so internal spaces serve no purpose. Your ship is basically 90% power and shields with turrets slapped on a thin hull once you find the upgrade cards to be able to have them.
It is perhaps the most boring spaceship building (and combat and mining) I have ever seen.

 

[HorribleHedgehog]

Personally, I've been taking a break from Starmade because I'm waiting for the weapons update to be finalized. After it hits, I'll whip myself into a building frenzy.

Personally I don't mind the slow development time. I've got plenty of other stuff to do while waiting for Starmade to blossom.

 

[Blodge]

I actually mistyped, forgetting the word damage there for falloff. Anywas, I think cannons as medium is a contradiction due to their low accuracy. If beams are limited to short ranges, cannons will just overtake them except in exceptionally limited roles as emergency PD, but at low damage, even that would suck.

Having damage on an inverse scale with the distance to the target might work too for balance, but I don't know how much strain that would put on a server having to continually calculate relative distance and damage amounts. It would certainly give you an incentive to get closer to your target.
But then, the increased likelihood to miss at a distance also encourages you to get closer when using Cannons. I think unless the damage done by beams at longer distance is considerably weaker, then this would lead to Beams overtaking Cannons as the lock-on ability means they're guaranteed to hit and at least do some damage, whereas the Cannon may miss.

Using Beams as short-range point defence sounds useful to me as they'll keep people using Cannons and Missiles at a certain minimum distance for fear of receiving one or multiple guaranteed instant hits. That gives you more chance to dodge Cannon shots and intercept Missiles, and Fighters with low armour and shields will have a hard time getting close enough for those precision hits on your weak points.
[doublepost=1529323013,1529322549][/doublepost]

I didn't stop playing because they changed anything, I stopped because better games came out and StarMade has nothing to stand out with. The only thing that it has that something like Avorion or From The Depth don't is low level fabrication and mining, but those are the least functional parts of the game and they are most of the time totally non working.

In SM guns just throw numbers at things so the best protection is the game's terrible damage models. In Avorion a ship's shield isn't on the hull and some shots will pass through it resulting in less all or nothing. In FtD a shell's impact force, armor pen, speed, fuse type, and payload are all tracked so things matter and secondary batteries have a reason to exist.

SM has nothing going for it, no real direction, no clear goals, and it's slower than anything in its category to actually do anything. Why would I play it?

From the Depths is a different genre of game to StarMade that just happens to use voxels. Avorion has different features, is not 1st-person and is in Beta, so I don't think either are good examples for comparison.

Well done on getting people to look them up though...

 

[Spyrelle]

Avorion has no astronaut mode, so internal spaces serve no purpose. Your ship is basically 90% power and shields with turrets slapped on a thin hull once you find the upgrade cards to be able to have them.
It is perhaps the most boring spaceship building (and combat and mining) I have ever seen.

I understand AVORION has no astronaut mode; I did some light research in watching YouTube coverage of the game in order to make sure I knew what Starmade's competition had to offer.

Whilst I see potential in AVORION, the lack of internal space is what shall keep me playing Starmade; Interiors give character.

 

[Valiant70]

Full handling of life-support, oxygen or pressure management would require a ton of calculations and may restrict the building options and designs.

[doublepost=1529605787,1529605609][/doublepost]I have no words for how much it disappoints me that my favorite game will never have simulated air. This gigantic thumbs down will have to suffice. I've looked forward to and hoped for a solution to air since I first started playing Starmade. In my opinion, if air is not feasible in this engine, a space game is not feasible in this engine and Schema's goals have surpassed the capabilities of the engine he has created.

This isn't going to stop me from playing, but it's always going to be a gaping hole in the game for me.

 

[Alphajim]

View attachment 49294
[doublepost=1529605787,1529605609][/doublepost]I have no words for how much it disappoints me that my favorite game will never have simulated air. This gigantic thumbs down will have to suffice. I've looked forward to and hoped for a solution to air since I first started playing Starmade. In my opinion, if air is not feasible in this engine, a space game is not feasible in this engine and Schema's goals have surpassed the capabilities of the engine he has created.

This isn't going to stop me from playing, but it's always going to be a gaping hole in the game for me.

They never kept it secret. Schema said many times that pressure gestion won't be a thing, except if he succeed to make something lighter.

 

[Valiant70]

They never kept it secret. Schema said many times that pressure gestion won't be a thing, except if he succeed to make something lighter.

It's never been a secret that this is a shortcoming of the game, either. It's been ignored for so long that the current state is just assumed to be acceptable, and it's not. Air doesn't exist in StarMade - humans breathe space! We regularly see players and NPCs floating in space with no helmet. Regardless of whether we get simulated atmosphere/compression/decompression, something needs to be done to patch the immersion gap.

That said, I'm not sure why the game can't use the fill tool code (or an optimized version thereof) to fill spaces with air. The acid damage model slows down changes to large numbers of blocks and makes them incrementally. Why couldn't the same be done for air?

 

[Blodge]

It's never been a secret that this is a shortcoming of the game, either. It's been ignored for so long that the current state is just assumed to be acceptable, and it's not. Air doesn't exist in StarMade - humans breathe space! We regularly see players and NPCs floating in space with no helmet. Regardless of whether we get simulated atmosphere/compression/decompression, something needs to be done to patch the immersion gap.

That said, I'm not sure why the game can't use the fill tool code (or an optimized version thereof) to fill spaces with air. The acid damage model slows down changes to large numbers of blocks and makes them incrementally. Why couldn't the same be done for air?

I'm pretty sure the Engine can be adapted to handle air. Something similar the new shield mechanic but centered around a Life Support Block would probably do the trick. My question however is; why?
How does adding atmosphere mechanics make the game more fun?

Yes, it adds to the realism, but so would having to empty your spacesuit's poo-pouch every 24 hours. Not my idea of fun.

 

[Valiant70]

My question however is; why?
How does adding atmosphere mechanics make the game more fun?

Yes, it adds to the realism, but so would having to empty your spacesuit's poo-pouch every 24 hours. Not my idea of fun.

Have you ever played Empyrion or the Galcticraft Minecraft mod? Think of either of those without air. Weird? Definitely. It's no less weird in Starmade. We've just gotten used to something that makes no sense and is frankly kind of boring. What if spacewalk was something where you had to be careful? What if having your hull ripped open mattered after the battle was over?

 

[dwwojcik]

Yeah no air would be a disappointing omission. I really hope Schine reverses this decision.

 

[Alphajim]

It's never been a secret that this is a shortcoming of the game, either. It's been ignored for so long that the current state is just assumed to be acceptable, and it's not. Air doesn't exist in StarMade - humans breathe space! We regularly see players and NPCs floating in space with no helmet. Regardless of whether we get simulated atmosphere/compression/decompression, something needs to be done to patch the immersion gap.

Have you ever played Empyrion or the Galcticraft Minecraft mod? Think of either of those without air. Weird? Definitely. It's no less weird in Starmade. We've just gotten used to something that makes no sense and is frankly kind of boring. What if spacewalk was something where you had to be careful? What if having your hull ripped open mattered after the battle was over?

I don't care about air in this game. Why having anything wasting server ressources when less than some % of all the ships would be player-manned ? Even more, why having a ship atmosphere when it has been directly said that a galacticraft-like oxygen system would never be a thing, like fuel and food ?

That said, I'm not sure why the game can't use the fill tool code (or an optimized version thereof) to fill spaces with air. The acid damage model slows down changes to large numbers of blocks and makes them incrementally. Why couldn't the same be done for air?

It seems to be a good idea, but it's up to schema to confirm.

I'm not against an oxygen system, but as this won't be useful I don't see why it would be added. At least I don't want to be bothered by it at all except in fights or when building. I don't want to reload my oxygen tanks every X minutes for the sake of "realism".

 

[Nebulon-B_Frigate_FTW]

The main point of air would be to need it to keep crew alive (presumably wouldn't be instant, allowing them to repair breaches etc.), so ships would need actually-separated interior spaces which would make a ship feel better in terms of design. Right now, ships are often just a few hallways, or have large empty voids, with almost no doors; air makes interior design more useful and interesting.

 

[Valiant70]

I don't want to reload my oxygen tanks every X minutes for the sake of "realism".

I don’t think anyone wants that TBH... not in this game. The main thing is sealing ships, and possibly limiting how long you can survive in space in only your suit. Lots of ships in sci-fi are self-sufficient in life support, and there’s no reason for that not to be automated. The main thing is a way to tell what’s inside and what’s space. Humans don’t breathe vacuum!!

 

[Blodge]

Have you ever played Empyrion or the Galcticraft Minecraft mod?

I haven't played either. Can you give me a summary of the benefits to game-play? And I mean how it impacts playing the game, not how it impacts immersion.

What if spacewalk was something where you had to be careful? What if having your hull ripped open mattered after the battle was over?

The main point of air would be to need it to keep crew alive

The main thing is sealing ships, and possibly limiting how long you can survive in space in only your suit.

This is what I mean by why have atmosphere.

At the moment, your Player Astronaut has an unlimited air supply in his suit. Presumably NPCs do too. If you're proposing to limit the amount you have, then you're introducing a time limit in which you need to find an oxygen source before you die. How do you implement that in a way that make the game more fun? At the very least, you couldn't have the Player start the game floating in space outside of a shop anymore.

 

[Nebulon-B_Frigate_FTW]

I haven't played either. Can you give me a summary of the benefits to game-play? And I mean how it impacts playing the game, not how it impacts immersion.







This is what I mean by why have atmosphere.

At the moment, your Player Astronaut has an unlimited air supply in his suit. Presumably NPCs do too. If you're proposing to limit the amount you have, then you're introducing a time limit in which you need to find an oxygen source before you die. How do you implement that in a way that make the game more fun? At the very least, you couldn't have the Player start the game floating in space outside of a shop anymore.

So, give shops actually decent interiors including some indoor shipyards and hangars instead of just being notched sticks in space. Not only makes for a much better feel of a world, but also protects new players or those who just lost their ship from pirates.

Basically, things feel better when there is an immediate reason to have shelter. Right now, without one, stations seem rather pointless except to dock to and both ships and stations feel empty, even when they have some interior, since it's all just decoration.

Also, it would make sense for the core and build blocks to have unlimited life support. Fighters would be things you want to dock indoors or at least near airlocks and you'd have time to construct interior shelter after starting a ship.

 

[Valiant70]

Can you give me a summary of the benefits to game-play? And I mean how it impacts playing the game, not how it impacts immersion.

To put it simply, it makes space feel like space. Space is a place where you can't breathe without equipment. It's hostile, and draws a contrast to the cozy, air-filled interior of your ship or station.

At the moment, your Player Astronaut has an unlimited air supply in his suit. Presumably NPCs do too. If you're proposing to limit the amount you have, then you're introducing a time limit in which you need to find an oxygen source before you die. How do you implement that in a way that make the game more fun?

I think Galacticraft hit it on the head. You can survive for quite a while with large tanks, but not forever. Galcticraft makes you produce oxygen and compress it to refill your tanks, but I think we can leave that part out of StarMade since it should be very easy for our technology to split CO2 back into oxygen and carbon. Just a block that lets you refill would be fine. It might be nice if there was a reason to take your helmet off sometimes, so how about this:

• In space: Consume O2 slowly
• In air with helmet on: Consume no O2
  
• In air with helmet off: Refill O2 slowly

The goal of all of this is to make you feel like you're actually in space, and encourage players to seal their stations and ships properly. I think it would be fun, and I don't see it being particularly annoying.

 

[Briaireous]

Yaa, but now comes the hardest part of the programing... How do u determine where there is air (breathable).

Maybe adding air might make planets more appealing as you don't need to ever do any sort of refilling (can also depends on the planet if u want to make some planets inhospitable)