Turret nerfs

aceface · Dec 27, 2017

Turrets in the pvp community are very common, to the point where manual firing weapons that do damage are hardly ever used. For those who dont know turrets have often better accuracy than a player and get a better firing arc because of how they can move. Here's some suggestions to nerf them to make the choice between manual fire weapons and turrets not as obvious:

1. Make maximum turning speed of turrets slower the bigger the turret is in mass. The turret achieves its maximum speed by having appropriate rail mass enhancers. Right now as long as you have enough enhancers giant turrets will turn crazily fast like small ones.

2. Make it so that the more turrets you have per ship the more power the turrets weapons use, e.g 10% extra, like the grouping effect with weapons. This is to make it so that people dont spam small turrets to get a good turning speed.

RB101 · Dec 27, 2017

I just think overall turret mass should dictate maximum tracking speed.

As for turret spam, I just think that there should be a maximum amount of automated turrets you can have active without investing into so kind of turret controll system (blockbased most likely)

Manually aimed turrets also shouldn’t count towards automatic turret count.

Non · Dec 27, 2017

aceface said:
Turrets in the pvp community are very common, to the point where manual firing weapons that do damage are hardly ever used. For those who dont know turrets have often better accuracy than a player and get a better firing arc because of how they can move. Here's some suggestions to nerf them to make the choice between manual fire weapons and turrets not as obvious:

1. Make maximum turning speed of turrets slower the bigger the turret is in mass. The turret achieves its maximum speed by having appropriate rail mass enhancers. Right now as long as you have enough enhancers giant turrets will turn crazily fast like small ones.

2. Make it so that the more turrets you have per ship the more power the turrets weapons use, e.g 10% extra, like the grouping effect with weapons. This is to make it so that people dont spam small turrets to get a good turning speed.

Turrets are how big ships fire in real life. I agree with 1, 2 is just ridiculous. I also don't see a problem with turrets being used a lot, it frees up the player to do things like manual missile shootdown.

RB101 said:
As for turret spam, I just think that there should be a maximum amount of automated turrets you can have active without investing into so kind of turret controll system (blockbased most likely)

Manually aimed turrets also shouldn’t count towards automatic turret count.

This is just super arbitrary.

Raisinbat · Dec 27, 2017

aceface said:
Turrets in the pvp community are very common, to the point where manual firing weapons that do damage are hardly ever used. For those who dont know turrets have often better accuracy than a player and get a better firing arc because of how they can move. Here's some suggestions to nerf them to make the choice between manual fire weapons and turrets not as obvious:

Not this shit again. Nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf, anything you dont like? nerf that shit. Someone having fun the wrong way? nerf nerf nerf.

Why the fuck does manual weapons need a fucking boost? Premise is complete bullshit for this; how is this going to affect stations, or multiple player ships where the turrets ARE manually operated? The accuracy benefit has more to do with beams being insanely OP, and in dire need of some massive nerfing(Which noone will complain about because it doesn´t bother cosmeticles), weapon range being sector size dependant, something that shouldve been fixed years ago, combined with public servers running 10-20km servers. BEAMS are the problem and turrets have nothing to do with it.
This is the same beautiful brand of retarded every gigantism argument farts around with. All your change is doing is make it so people wont kill you with one huge ship that has all the benefits youre complaining about but thousands of little bullshit drones that are completely unaffected by your idiot nerfing and already kick the shit out of larger ships. Undock your turrets and give them lil engines then what?
Making turret tradeoff heavier isn´t a bad idea but whats wrong with mass enhancers? You can´t exploit your way around them in any way, and they still allow fast turning capital turrets at a heavy price. Just don´t put any of the anti-gigantism shit on it and give them linear benefit; a 100 mass turret with 100 mass enhancers should move at the same speed as a 1000 mass turret with 1000 mass enhancers. If a massive turret is supposed to shoot at big, slow targets paying extra for unnecessary speed is dumb.

aceface said:
1. Make maximum turning speed of turrets slower the bigger the turret is in mass. The turret achieves its maximum speed by having appropriate rail mass enhancers. Right now as long as you have enough enhancers giant turrets will turn crazily fast like small ones.

Again this completely pointless gigantism nonsense. Keep turret mass enhancer cost linear and make them require more mass enhancers; if there was significant cost to boosting your big guns rotation speed people wouldn´t go for max speed turrets everywhere. Also im pretty sure, but not 100% i havent played much since 2.0 was announced, benefit per mass enhancer isn´t linear for some messed up reason; a 50% mass enhancer turret does NOT move at 50% the speed, but much slower. This means that going from 90% to 100% rotation speed is extremely cheap.

The problem with doing it your way is also that turrets need to move at different speeds depending on what they´re used for. A short range turret needs much faster tracking speed than a long range turret, doesn´t matter what mass they are or what they are shooting. Since the problem you´re trying to address is the long range accuracy for AI, it seems like short range turrets will be another casualty of overzealous pissing solutions.

aceface said:
2. Make it so that the more turrets you have per ship the more power the turrets weapons use, e.g 10% extra, like the grouping effect with weapons. This is to make it so that people dont spam small turrets to get a good turning speed.

What defines a turret? If i dock a block of guns to my ship and give it ai control even though it can´t rotate that will still function as a turret, and how are you going to distinguish that from a docked fighter in a carrier?

Literally also kills anything other than having a single turret. Again this is just more retarded fucking gigantism bullshit, fucking with big ships that have more turrets on account of being bigger. All youre going to do is encourage drone spam, fuck off with gigantism its turboaids.

aceface · Dec 27, 2017

Raisinbat said:
Not this shit again. Nerf nerf nerf nerf nerf, anything you dont like? nerf that shit. Someone having fun the wrong way? nerf nerf nerf.

Why the fuck does manual weapons need a fucking boost? Premise is complete bullshit for this; how is this going to affect stations, or multiple player ships where the turrets ARE manually operated? The accuracy benefit has more to do with beams being insanely OP, and in dire need of some massive nerfing(Which noone will complain about because it doesn´t bother cosmeticles), weapon range being sector size dependant, something that shouldve been fixed years ago, combined with public servers running 10-20km servers. BEAMS are the problem and turrets have nothing to do with it.

This is the same beautiful brand of spaget every gigantism argument farts around with. All your change is doing is make it so people wont kill you with one huge ship that has all the benefits youre complaining about but thousands of little bullshit drones that are completely unaffected by your pizza nerfing and already kick the shit out of larger ships. Undock your turrets and give them lil engines then what?

Making turret tradeoff heavier isn´t a bad idea but whats wrong with mass enhancers? You can´t exploit your way around them in any way, and they still allow fast turning capital turrets at a heavy price. Just don´t put any of the anti-gigantism shit on it and give them linear benefit; a 100 mass turret with 100 mass enhancers should move at the same speed as a 1000 mass turret with 1000 mass enhancers. If a massive turret is supposed to shoot at big, slow targets paying extra for unnecessary speed is dumb.

Again this completely pointless gigantism nonsense. Keep turret mass enhancer cost linear and make them require more mass enhancers; if there was significant cost to boosting your big guns rotation speed people wouldn´t go for max speed turrets everywhere. Also im pretty sure, but not 100% i havent played much since 2.0 was announced, benefit per mass enhancer isn´t linear for some messed up reason; a 50% mass enhancer turret does NOT move at 50% the speed, but much slower. This means that going from 90% to 100% rotation speed is extremely cheap.

The problem with doing it your way is also that turrets need to move at different speeds depending on what they´re used for. A short range turret needs much faster tracking speed than a long range turret, doesn´t matter what mass they are or what they are shooting. Since the problem you´re trying to address is the long range accuracy for AI, it seems like short range turrets will be another casualty of overzealous pissing solutions.

What defines a turret? If i dock a block of guns to my ship and give it ai control even though it can´t rotate that will still function as a turret, and how are you going to distinguish that from a docked fighter in a carrier?

Literally also kills anything other than having a single turret. Again this is just more spaget fucking gigantism bullshit, fucking with big ships that have more turrets on account of being bigger. All youre going to do is encourage drone spam, fuck off with gigantism its turboaids.

My man, you can critisize someones suggestion without being rude like this. I am sorry if my suggestion has insulted you because you seem like you've been angered on a deep level.

Premise: I Aceface think that turrets and manual fired weapons ought to be about the same in terms of viability as main weapons for a ship. When turrets are the method of choice it enforces certain types of design choices that are based around turrets. I am not saying its a bad design choice that a ship is based around turrets but the thing is there are many ships that will look weird with big turrets and I'd like them to be able to be on the same playing field without having to have big turrets and by instead having manual fired weapons. E.g: ship1 ship2

Since you want turrets that can turn the same speed regardless of size, may as well make big ships turn as fast as fighters. I never mentioned that big ships are bad, in fact I like flying big ships.

Definition of a turret: ship docked to main ship in some way that is shooting weapons with ai control active on that entity. Wouldn't matter with carriers because if a fighter is docked it is not there to fight and not shooting.

Doesn't necessarily need to apply to stations. Stations are quite underpowered in some ways.

Non · Dec 27, 2017

aceface said:
Since you want turrets that can turn the same speed regardless of size, may as well make big ships turn as fast as fighters. I never mentioned that big ships are bad, in fact I like flying big ships.

You messed with dev build yet? Cause thats a thing.

Zoolimar · Dec 27, 2017

aceface said:
Premise: I Aceface think that turrets and manual fired weapons ought to be about the same in terms of viability as main weapons for a ship.

In this case you should start with removing energy penalty for multiple weapon groups on a single computer. It's a much worse offender than turrets themselves.

aceface · Dec 27, 2017

Zoolimar said:
In this case you should start with removing energy penalty for multiple weapon groups on a single computer. It's a much worse offender than turrets themselves.

If you do this then everyones gonna spam outputs on cannons and beams because this yields better block destruction than fewer outputs.

Zoolimar · Dec 27, 2017

aceface said:
If you do this then everyones gonna spam outputs on cannons and beams because this yields better block destruction than fewer outputs.

Then you probably should have started with suggestion that allows single output non-missile weapons to deal proper damage to targets. Because without that turrets still would be the way to go - for they allow to ignore the group penalty.

NaStral · Dec 27, 2017

Instead of a nerf, why not improve player used weapons so that they will actually want to use them? Waiting for your missiles to lock and not being able to steer much is a huge disadvantage which is way I avoid such setups like the plague. If missiles had some kind of inherent bonus that only kicked in when used by a player to counteract the issues at hand such as maybe when missiles are fixed player fired missiles would have a better damage yield, accuracy, even unique effects like manual control of the missile in flight. Same with cannons which suffer from a lack of fairly basic things like a Predicted Impact Point among other things. Buffs for underused setups would accomplish more for game play ultimately. Many people want to use main body weapons really bad but are disappointed by the disadvantage that puts them in. Both styles are worthwhile and deserve a place in the game.

Nosajimiki · Dec 27, 2017

aceface said:
Turrets in the pvp community are very common, to the point where manual firing weapons that do damage are hardly ever used. For those who dont know turrets have often better accuracy than a player and get a better firing arc because of how they can move. Here's some suggestions to nerf them to make the choice between manual fire weapons and turrets not as obvious:

1. Make maximum turning speed of turrets slower the bigger the turret is in mass. The turret achieves its maximum speed by having appropriate rail mass enhancers. Right now as long as you have enough enhancers giant turrets will turn crazily fast like small ones.

2. Make it so that the more turrets you have per ship the more power the turrets weapons use, e.g 10% extra, like the grouping effect with weapons. This is to make it so that people dont spam small turrets to get a good turning speed.

Big turrets DO turn slower, they are just affected by the same glitch that is effecting big ships where rounding errors under lag allow them to turn faster.

Also, there are certain weapon systems that make more since as main-body weapons, and some that make more since as turrets. It is not an all or nothing sort of thing. At MOST, the game should consider removing the lock-on timer of homing missiles or adding a fire dely to AI missiles since that is kinda broken, but mostly I agree with others that turreting main weapons frees the pilot up for doing more "captain" level stuff like toggling passives, scanning, tactical jumps, commanding drones, etc. This makes capitol ship fights feel more like capital ships.
[doublepost=1514403282,1514402334][/doublepost]

aceface said:
If you do this then everyones gonna spam outputs on cannons and beams because this yields better block destruction than fewer outputs.

People already do this with turrets. Some individual turrets have 100+ outputs using the multi-computer exploit which is WHY people favor them so much. Make main weapons able to have the same advantages, then you'll see a lot of those outputs moved to the main body naturally.

HerrColonel · Dec 27, 2017

aceface said:
My man, you can critisize someones suggestion without being rude like this. I am sorry if my suggestion has insulted you because you seem like you've been angered on a deep level.

Premise: I Aceface think that turrets and manual fired weapons ought to be about the same in terms of viability as main weapons for a ship. When turrets are the method of choice it enforces certain types of design choices that are based around turrets. I am not saying its a bad design choice that a ship is based around turrets but the thing is there are many ships that will look weird with big turrets and I'd like them to be able to be on the same playing field without having to have big turrets and by instead having manual fired weapons. E.g: ship1 ship2

Since you want turrets that can turn the same speed regardless of size, may as well make big ships turn as fast as fighters. I never mentioned that big ships are bad, in fact I like flying big ships.

Definition of a turret: ship docked to main ship in some way that is shooting weapons with ai control active on that entity. Wouldn't matter with carriers because if a fighter is docked it is not there to fight and not shooting.

Doesn't necessarily need to apply to stations. Stations are quite underpowered in some ways.

But turrets have drawbacks already. Mostly the same advantages than static docked weapons fired by an AI, but more vulnerability due to the mechanical challenges for them to rotate and cover a large angle which is the best option ATM because a turret aiming at something out of its angle will be "stuck" until this entity is overheating, and will not switch to available targets. There's a trick that implies a clock and switching the turret off every 2 sec or so for it to switch target but it's really over-engineering and due to the lacks of intelligence of this system. You might be aware of it already.
IMO AI behavior and turrets is something that should be worked on (it's been awaited for soooo long I can't imagine how they could stick with it and still have produced the NPC update), but not nerfed or buffed in this state of the game

Valiant70 · Dec 28, 2017

aceface said:
1. Make maximum turning speed of turrets slower the bigger the turret is in mass. The turret achieves its maximum speed by having appropriate rail mass enhancers. Right now as long as you have enough enhancers giant turrets will turn crazily fast like small ones.

Yes.

aceface said:
2. Make it so that the more turrets you have per ship the more power the turrets weapons use, e.g 10% extra, like the grouping effect with weapons. This is to make it so that people dont spam small turrets to get a good turning speed.

There has GOT to be a better way to balance small turrets, because this SUCKS.

RB101 said:
I just think overall turret mass should dictate maximum tracking speed.

That's even worse!!

RB101 said:
As for turret spam, I just think that there should be a maximum amount of automated turrets you can have active without investing into so kind of turret controll system (blockbased most likely)

Okay, now we're getting somewhere. Maybe we can get an idea together to make AI into a system all its own, both for turrets and for ships themselves. I'd like if it wasn't terribly large or use a lot of power, but took some thought to make it work well, something similar to the chamber system but with individual blocks rather than large groups of them.

Raisinbat said:
Again this completely pointless gigantism nonsense. Keep turret mass enhancer cost linear and make them require more mass enhancers; if there was significant cost to boosting your big guns rotation speed people wouldn´t go for max speed turrets everywhere. Also im pretty sure, but not 100% i havent played much since 2.0 was announced, benefit per mass enhancer isn´t linear for some messed up reason; a 50% mass enhancer turret does NOT move at 50% the speed, but much slower. This means that going from 90% to 100% rotation speed is extremely cheap.

The problem with doing it your way is also that turrets need to move at different speeds depending on what they´re used for. A short range turret needs much faster tracking speed than a long range turret, doesn´t matter what mass they are or what they are shooting. Since the problem you´re trying to address is the long range accuracy for AI, it seems like short range turrets will be another casualty of overzealous pissing solutions.

Giant turrets spinning too quickly looks and feels stupid. End of story.

On the other hand, this is giving me more ideas. From this discussion overall, I think:

Enhancers should be per turret, ON the turret in the base and/or barrel (both or either, builder's preference)
There should be multiple types of enhancers to choose from: Rotation speed and accuracy, both of which consume power.
Base rotation speed should decrease greatly with turret mass, requiring more rotation enhancers and a lot more power. Max rotation speed should decrease slightly with mass, so you don't have 100k mass turrets spinning at max rate.

Nosajimiki · Dec 28, 2017

One other MAJOR problem with nerfing big turrets is that big turrets cause less lag. A ship with 100k mass devoted to 4-6 large battle turrets is much less laggy than a similar amount of firepower dumped into 20-40 smaller turrets. If you recall the Despoiler or the Salamis, they were laggier than most ships twice their size because they used so many turrets.

This update would encourage entity spamming and result in game breaking designs. It would be absolutely toxic to the game, and would be FAR worse than just "looking stupid" by allowing big turrets to turn quickly.

Another point worth mentioning is that power 2.0 is currently planed to drastically reduce turret sizes anyway. Turrets will become at-least 10 times smaller since weapons are so much more compact, they won't be able to be self powered, and they will not be able to be as relatively strong without self-powering.

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