Starmade and Degenerate Strategy

[Lecic]

"A degenerate strategy is a way of playing a video game that exploits an oversight in gameplay mechanics or design. Degenerate strategies apply to player-versus-player (PvP) as well as player versus environment (PvE) games. Degenerate strategies do not break the rules of a game like a code or a cheat, but they do prevent the game from being experienced in the manner intended by the game designer."

Starmade is currently the victim of degenerate strategy. Here's a list why.

• Cannon/Cannon is the only cannon choice that anyone with brains would use. It is more effective with punch/pierce than any other cannon type, has no long reload time penalty compared to the other cannon types, has no penalty for missing due to extreme projectile spam, has the same range as every other cannon type except Cannon/Beam. The issues with this have only been exaggerated now that punch has been majorly nerfed. They don't have the hitscan of beams, but due to the high speeds on most servers, this is rarely an issue.
• Missile/Missile is the superior missile weapon for non-team engagements. It is lock on with no lock on time needed, fires a large number of missiles which essentially make it immune to PD, can be logic-fired in shotguns with no power or lack of focus penalty, and can easily annihilate drone swarms and ships with heavy turreting. Simply put, anyone who doesn't use Missile/Missile for a ship that engages in solo fights needs to rethink their weapon layout.
• Missile/Beam is the only viable missile type for team engagements. It has lock on, high alpha, and has no lock on time for turrets. However, it suffers against jamming ships, highly mobile ships, and ships with high amounts of turrets. It has every advantage over dumbfire missiles, as you can simply slave a beam computer to a normal dumbfire and have identical stats plus lock on capabilities.
• Shields are the only viable defensive strategy. I realize this is being looked at with the HP update, but as the game currently has this issue, I felt it should be included.
• Drones. Drones can easily take down something with only 20% of the mass. They are difficult to set up, having high resource cost, and are weak to swarmer missiles, however.

Spoiler: My Suggestions For Fixing This

This isn't a suggestion thread, it's a discussion thread on the problems with degenerate strategy in Starmade. However, I will include my ideas on how to fix this, to jumpstart some discussion.

To fix cannons, I propose that every cannon type EXCEPT Cannon/Cannon gains an innate explosive and punch effect that scales with damage (which goes beyond the hard and soft caps for those two effects). I also suggest a tighter spread for shotguns, and slightly reduced range for Cannon/Cannon.

To fix missiles, I suggest increased velocity (or perhaps an accelerating projectile) for dumbfire missiles, and that this velocity/acceleration is lost the moment you link a beam computer to it. I also suggest a reduced amount of missiles output by Missile/Missile (maybe 5 instead of 20) and that swarmers only be able to heat seek if they are manually fired to prevent logicboards of swarmers.

To make beams viable, I suggest they have 75% the range of cannons instead of 50%, and that they also gain the innate explosive and punch I described earlier for cannons.

To make pulse viable, I suggest it launches at short range pulse that expands as it flies, instead of the current near-useless melee weapon status it holds.

Hull is going to be more useful in the future with the HP update. That's all I'm going to say on shields vs hull.

To fix drones, I suggest turrets have improved AI to prevent the "target overload" that happens right now and causes drones to be able to destroy even a well turreted ship with relative ease.

So, Starmade community. Let's discuss. Do you see any problems with degenerate strategy in Starmade? Do you disagree with me and find all or most weapons to currently be viable? Or do you agree with my points but not my suggestions for correcting it? Whatever your stance is, please, speak up, because the Starmade devs really need to look at combat, in my opinion.

 

[CyberTao]

To fix cannons

Nerf Cannon/Cannon range. That's an opinion I had for a little, most problems (large arrays on capitals), could probably be circumvented by just not letting Cannon/Cannon have the same range as everything else. Bring it down to around Beam range, since those weapons also have the ability to rekt plenty of blocks naturally with their damage tick setup.

To fix missiles, I suggest increased velocity (or perhaps an accelerating projectile) for dumbfire missiles, and that this velocity/acceleration is lost the moment you link a beam computer to it. I also suggest a reduced amount of missiles output by Missile/Missile (maybe 5 instead of 20) and that swarmers only be able to heat seek if they are manually fired to prevent logicboards of swarmers.

The additive velocity thing could simply be tied to Missile Style <0>, which is dumbfire. Just adding a beam computer changes it to <1>, which is lockon iirc, so it would lose any bonus it gained from being a dumbfire before.

Missile/Missile is also the slowest missile type as well. A normal default Missile/- moves at 1.98x server speed, Missile/Missile moves at 0.99, and a Missile/Beam moves at 4.96. This means you get more time to shoot down those missiles with PD, as well as being sub-max-speed, meaning it is technically possible to outrun them in a fighter.

Bringing them to 10, rather 5, sounds more balanced to me. You are increasing the chances of missiles being shot down (longer flight time), but also increasing the chance of doing minimal damage (at least 1 missile should hit). Bringing it down to 5 makes it a tad more unlikely that it would ever hit, especially on Anti-missile ships.

Additionally, a larger turn radius on Missile/missile would make it easier to dodge on smaller ships, so it's less of a insta-ownage.

To make beams viable, I suggest they have 75% the range of cannons instead of 50%, and that they also gain the innate explosive and punch I described earlier for cannons.

I am against that. Beams are already better at breaking blocks (even the heavy hitting ones) via tick style, the range alone is the only reason Cannons have any advantage over Beams, reduce it too much and there is literally no reason to use cannons at all, unless you wish to snipe shields.

I know AI and Hull will be fixed up someday (AI overhaul will probably be later, rather than sooner), and I heard Pulse is gonna get overhauled someday as well. The only thing I will say is, I am Against adding 'effects' to weapons as default, especially the additional block breakers. You will render missiles obsolete with such a system, I'd rather wait for them to fix Explosive and un-hard-nerf Punch/Pierce.


As a side note, you added a solution to make Beams Viable, but didn't list how they weren't (like your other solutions). Just something that stuck out to me, it's better to assume not everyone understands the 'problems' with beams.

 

[Megacrafter127]

To make pulse viable, I suggest it launches at short range pulse that expands as it flies, instead of the current near-useless melee weapon status it holds.

Err, what now? You mean like a vortex cannon?

Anyhow, I favor this approach to make pulse more useful:

1. Unlike now, a pulse does not deal all it's damage at the same time(when the pulse finished expanding), make the pulse deal it's damage in different radii, with the larger radii being calculated only once the pulse expanded to them. As huge radii cause a big load when calculating the damage, I instead recommend handling the pulse as a weapon, which fires projectiles in all directions(the vertices of the animation would make a good basis for that). When that is done, the radius of the pulse weapon can be increased drastically.
2. The hitbox of these projectiles will enlarge relative to the distance they've traveled.
   
3. Each of the above-mentioned projectiles has an own damage-pool, which it uses to deal it's damage, it will deal a lesser amount of damage to a hit block/entity, the farther it has already traveled[and the less damage is in the pool]. Excess damage will NOT be returned to the pool. The projectile will only despawn once it's pool reaches 0, or it traveled the maximum distance
4. Have the range of a pule depend on it's overall damage(in a sublinear fashion, maybe with a hardcap at a part of the sector-size)

What would the immedeate effects of this be:

• In case a large ship, which is being attacked by fleet of smaller ships, fires such a pulse, the smaller ships will have to evacuate the area, however, tanks within the fleet can "punch" holes into the pulse, allowing the nontanks to enter again and close the distance.
• A pulse with a high enough range will be a great weapon, when one is completely encompassed
• It encourages teamwork between agile ships and tanks
• It encourages specialization

Now for the only downside I can think of right now:

• Stations are pretty much helpless against it
• Player-piloted fighter-swarms are discouraged, as they do not contain any ships capable of tanking such a pulse, if emitted by a major target

 

[CyberTao]

Anyhow, I favor this approach to make pulse more useful:

1. Unlike now, a pulse does not deal all it's damage at the same time(when the pulse finished expanding), make the pulse deal it's damage in different radii, with the larger radii being calculated only once the pulse expanded to them. As huge radii cause a big load when calculating the damage, I instead recommend handling the pulse as a weapon, which fires projectiles in all directions(the vertices of the animation would make a good basis for that). When that is done, the radius of the pulse weapon can be increased drastically.
2. The hitbox of these projectiles will enlarge relative to the distance they've traveled.
   
3. Each of the above-mentioned projectiles has an own damage-pool, which it uses to deal it's damage, it will deal a lesser amount of damage to a hit block/entity, the farther it has already traveled[and the less damage is in the pool]. Excess damage will NOT be returned to the pool. The projectile will only despawn once it's pool reaches 0, or it traveled the maximum distance
4. Have the range of a pule depend on it's overall damage(in a sublinear fashion, maybe with a hardcap at a part of the sector-size)

Mega, I'm pretty sure you just described the Missile Staging system used for calculating damage, gradually increasing radii to get around Lag, and a set damage % value per Radius. The only part you are missing is where it stops if all blocks in the past Radii were not destroyed.

Missiles are based on the Pulse spheres, didn't you know?

 

[Megacrafter127]

Mega, I'm pretty sure you just described the Missile Staging system used for calculating damage, gradually increasing radii to get around Lag, and a set damage % value per Radius. The only part you are missing is where it stops if all blocks in the past Radii were not destroyed.

Missiles are based on the Pulse spheres, didn't you know?

Yes, but the missile radii are not calculated with an intended difference in time. The missile damage is applied as fast as possible for the computer. I intend breaks between the radii, to give the illusion of a (slowly) expanding pulse.

 

[Viridis00]

You will render missiles obsolete with such a system, I'd rather wait for them to fix Explosive and un-hard-nerf Punch/Pierce.

I can't ever see missiles being obsolete the way they are now. The sheer damage and scale of their explosions will always make them important weapons. A small innate explosive effect will not encroach missile's effectiveness as long as the radius does not exceed the immediate neighboring blocks and the percentage of damage is not too high in addition to scaling with the rate of fire, the fastest rapid or possibly a certain threshold removing it completely. I do not agree with the innate punch unless it is severely capped off even more than it is already (that applies to the base effect only, punch/pierce really do need to have a higher upper limit)

Maybe giving cannons an innate piercing effect instead of punch and giving lasers the innate punch would better reflect their roles as weapons as well? Behavior while having a different tertiary system (eg: laser with punch) would eliminate the innate effect entirely and the same effect as the innate property just scales up even more (like explosive missiles).

 

[CyberTao]

Maybe giving cannons an innate piercing effect instead of punch and giving lasers the innate punch would better reflect their roles as weapons as well?

That does sound kinda nice, so long as they don't go more than 3 blocks most times. I'm mostly wary of defensive effects in this case, because if it is too strong then passive punch would be almost a requirement for PvP, instead of being part of a specialty or counter ship. Though I suppose those effects do need a bit more value to them.

I might just be over thinking things, but it seems like most people forget about the defensive counter parts to said effects, and how they will be affected or affect ship building.

 

[Viridis00]

because if it is too strong then passive punch would be almost a requirement for PvP, instead of being part of a specialty or counter ship.

As long as each system has its own innate effect, I can't see it being a problem.

• Cannon: Pierce
• Missile: Explosion (already the way it is)
• Laser: Punch
• Pulse: EMP

Might be a good way to have slight innate effects for weapons that way no one defensive system is the go to, or at the very least only two. Ideally, the innate effects are not strong enough to make someone value one defense effect over the other significantly if they are just nerfed versions of full effect systems.

 

[CyberTao]

Missile: Explosion (already the way it is)

When you say it like that, it makes me feel like the explosive defensive effect should be able to reduce missile craters as well, which would honestly be nice. Another counter to missiles, one to reduce the damage taken when hit to some extent. It's an idea at least.

 

[AtraUnam]

How about we make hulk missiles like torpedoes. Keep their damage, loose the lock and make em immune to PD. Gives bombers a great weapon against capitals and for capitals to use against each other, but the slow speed would make it easy for small ships to dodge. Might make piloting fighters a little more fun.

 

[Stakhanov]

The game suffered from degenerate strategies for its entire life. That's expected for an alpha , but the balancing method of starting with identical damage per block for everything is questionable. Only the most practical weapons would be used.

It's time to assign proper roles to weapons based on how reliable or damaging they should be. Rapid fire cannons really should not have the same damage potential as heavy cannons that require an extra ship worth of capacitors to fire a single shot. Beams and pulses would benefit from a more pratical range at the cost of lower damage. Who's using scatter beams at the moment ? They have no viable role.

 

[CyberTao]

Who's using scatter beams at the moment ? They have no viable role.

If the spread of shotgun weapons weren't so shit at moderate ranges, I could use them as a turret. Change it from depending on the AI's bad to accounting for a pilot to try and dodge for example.

Also, Damage pulse already has a reduced DPS, it gets 0.5 DPS/block.
/Nitpick

I think the idea of (almost) all weapons having the same is the same for having effects seperate, it gives you the option to use whatever for whatever. That said, varying up the stats and values a bit would probably help the game in the long run.

 

[Keptick]

I use cannon/beam for my big turrets. It murders enemy shields at long range, hits almost instantly, can't really miss (depends on accuracy setting) and can't be shot down by missiles.

I mostly agree with the rest. Except for drones. You stated the downsides yourself :p. In practice I haven't seen anyone use drones, and I've only done so a couple of times. There's also some bugs that make them slightly OP (like the turret mess-up you mentioned)

It'd be really nice if turrets could separate out targets between themselves, especially in the case of Anti-missile turrets. Basically each turret gets it's own target. So if you have 100 PD turrets you could engage 100 missile at the same time.

 

[Lecic]

I mostly agree with the rest. Except for drones. You stated the downsides yourself :p. In practice I haven't seen anyone use drones, and I've only done so a couple of times. There's also some bugs that make them slightly OP (like the turret mess-up you mentioned)

Well, Thryn did use drones during Blood and Steel for deadly effect. I haven't seen them used outside of there, though, which can probably be attributed to the rather large cost of using them.

 

[Keptick]

Well, Thryn did use drones during Blood and Steel for deadly effect. I haven't seen them used outside of there, though, which can probably be attributed to the rather large cost of using them.

Yea, I meant in a normal server environment, sorry :P

 

[jzimmerman4]

Err, what now? You mean like a vortex cannon?

Anyhow, I favor this approach to make pulse more useful:

1. Unlike now, a pulse does not deal all it's damage at the same time(when the pulse finished expanding), make the pulse deal it's damage in different radii, with the larger radii being calculated only once the pulse expanded to them. As huge radii cause a big load when calculating the damage, I instead recommend handling the pulse as a weapon, which fires projectiles in all directions(the vertices of the animation would make a good basis for that). When that is done, the radius of the pulse weapon can be increased drastically.
2. The hitbox of these projectiles will enlarge relative to the distance they've traveled.
   
3. Each of the above-mentioned projectiles has an own damage-pool, which it uses to deal it's damage, it will deal a lesser amount of damage to a hit block/entity, the farther it has already traveled[and the less damage is in the pool]. Excess damage will NOT be returned to the pool. The projectile will only despawn once it's pool reaches 0, or it traveled the maximum distance
4. Have the range of a pule depend on it's overall damage(in a sublinear fashion, maybe with a hardcap at a part of the sector-size)

What would the immedeate effects of this be:

• In case a large ship, which is being attacked by fleet of smaller ships, fires such a pulse, the smaller ships will have to evacuate the area, however, tanks within the fleet can "punch" holes into the pulse, allowing the nontanks to enter again and close the distance.
• A pulse with a high enough range will be a great weapon, when one is completely encompassed
• It encourages teamwork between agile ships and tanks
• It encourages specialization

Now for the only downside I can think of right now:

• Stations are pretty much helpless against it
• Player-piloted fighter-swarms are discouraged, as they do not contain any ships capable of tanking such a pulse, if emitted by a major target

Here's my break down of how pulse should act, pretty much what you said but I broke it down to how it will be with the different slaves.
http://starmadedock.net/threads/re-imagining-the-damage-pulse.2726/

And I wrote it first if that counts for anything :p

 

[EtherEel]

Caution: EtherEel input incoming

I've stated elsewhere various opinions/observations regarding the weapons and their issues. So I guess I'll assemble some those that I recall here. And add a few as well:

1. Cannons and Beams should be "swapped": Cannons -- less accurate, short range, higher damage. Beams -- extremely accurate, long range, lesser damage. (Of course, Beams need to be "fixed" in the first place... so many bugs.)
1a. I agree that Cannon/Cannon has too many advantages -- it should produce much less dps. (Extra short range is another valid possibility.)
1b. I have already suggested that Cannons and Beams should have an innate/inherent minor blast radius.
1c. Shotgun needs a make-over for sure. (Beam/Missile needs help, too -- but that falls under "Beams needa be fixed.")

2. I agree that Missile/Missile output qty be reduced to 10. (Should it not also just have a natural filter to not target friendlies?)
2a. The Lock-on mechanism is slow and clumsy. Perhaps something like "if you've targeted via the Nav menu, your lock-on should not be interfered by other targetables." (Just a stray thought...)

3. I'm actually not fond of the idea of a projected Pulse (or a "Cone Pulse) (my other opinions of Pulse I will not mention here...) Rather, I prefer that Pulse have a very large radius (200+ meters) and do lesser damage (though not too little) -- like a "starburst" shockwave. Would be good for positioning a Pulse-equiped ship amidst multiple enemies and unleashing the natural ability to hit everything with a single "shot" -- which really is point of the Pulse after all, no? -- omnidirectional damage.

4. Any weapon should be able to destroy a missile. But also give missiles more than just 1 measly HP. (Which also necessitates "Big-radius-Pulse" have an extra-lengthy recharge time.) (But would also make it a good "defensive" weapon...)

• Cannon: Pierce

• Missile: Explosion (already the way it is)

• Laser: Punch

• Pulse: EMP

This has real potential. Kinda similar to my idea of innate blast-radius for cannons & beams, but more refined. "Thumbs-up."

Gotta go for now, but other ideas are still lurking. And If I didn't mention your other idea(s), it doesn't mean I like/dislike it....

~ee

 

[CyberTao]

1a. I agree that Cannon/Cannon has too many advantages -- it should produce much less dps.

The problem is that Cannon/Cannon can not have any lower DPS. At 5 dps per block, and 10 shots per second at 100% support (2 block minimum), you get 1 damage per shot. Starmade rounds down from what I heard, so any lower and you effectively make the weapon useless below a certain size. If missile are truly set to have -1- HP, then you wouldn't be able to use Cannon/Cannon as PD unless you passed that certain size.

It's kinda in an odd place, might be easier to make other weapons more appealing than it is to make Cannon/Cannon less appealing.

(Should it not also just have a natural filter to not target friendlies?)

Having an enemy-only, auto-locking, bulk missile spitter seems OP, it would become worse than Cannon/Cannon is atm.

Maybe a cone instead? Normal fire would only lock on targets view-able from the Computer (things you can see from within the computer). It would let you use them in fleet combat to some extent if you are careful, and if this was set as the default firing, it would nerf ships that cover themselves in logic swarm spam (they could only lock in the direction they fire). Right click fire would give you the same as it is now, being able to lock in any direction, but only usable by a player. Just an idea.

Spoiler: To anyone who can answer me

A question about inherit explosive or punch effects; Why is this so sought after? I'm just asking in general, but how is a weapon being able to break X extra blocks any different than adding those effect blocks to the weapon? Most other effects would override them (EMP, Ion, Any momentum effect), and the few that wouldn't would lead to combinations like Explosive+Punch at the same time (You'd still be breaking the same number of blocks, since this does not add damage).

It truly gains no advantage other than just adding those effects to the weapon. Are effects that expensive? Or is it cause Explosive is bugged and cannot be increased beyond 1, and people think that was a design choice? Why do people think this would add anything to the game, aside from a free change in crater?

 

[Lecic]

The problem is that Cannon/Cannon can not have any lower DPS. At 5 dps per block, and 10 shots per second at 100% support (2 block minimum), you get 1 damage per shot. Starmade rounds down from what I heard, so any lower and you effectively make the weapon useless below a certain size.

Well, there is one solution to that- decrease the fire-rate of Cannon/Cannon to 5 shots per second instead of 10. Still quite rapid, allows us to halve the DPS per block, and doesn't cause as much projectile lag due to half as many projectiles.

 

[Coke McCain]

Or is it cause Explosive is bugged and cannot be increased beyond 1, and people think that was a design choice?

It's not bugged. The config is commented that it's intentionally capped.