A suggestion on Shields and Ship classes.

[bdunwithat]

[EDIT] As has been noted, this is not only an un-original idea, the post is quite poorly written. Feel free to skip over this dime a dozen post to the actual discussion.[/EDIT]

Currently, shields act as an hp bar for ship blocks, tightly surrounding the entire ship. No matter how byzantine the shape or contour, the shield will protect every block equally. Because of this, large ships are free to stack shields, while small ships can only stay away.

My rudimentary illustration:


What if we changed to that? What if shields were a bubble that expanded outside of the ship proper? And what if the size of the shield was decided by the size of ship protected? And finally, what if ships could pass through that bubble, but not projectiles?

Large ships would have a huge amount of dead-space between their shields and themselves. Small agile fighters could slip through the shields on the ship and wreak havoc directly on the ship itself. Warheads would have a use on suicide drones. Essentially this would give large ships a weakness, and small ships some measure of usefulness.

I know my writing needs some work, but I do hope my idea (and moreover the implications of such a change) shine through

 

[Criss]

 

[Mariux]

Suggested millions of times and denied, main reasons being large potential of griefing and spherical collision detection being performance costly.

 

[starhaiden]

it was in starmade before, before version 0.9, it caused a lot of lag from what i have heard.

 

[Dragleones]

regarding bubble shields:

A "small" compilation of threads suggesting bubble shields:

This list is far from being or claiming to be complete.

1. Suggestion for shield systems [April 23, 2014]:
   http://starmadedock.net/threads/suggestion-for-shield-systems.758/
2. Spherical shields [May 29, 2014]:
   http://starmadedock.net/threads/spherical-shields.1226/
3. The idea of shield radius [Jul 13, 2014]:
   http://starmadedock.net/threads/the-idea-of-shield-radius.1991
4. Rounded shield [Aug 5, 2014]:
   http://starmadedock.net/threads/rounded-shield.2377/
5. Another take at the bubble shield stuff [Oct 12, 2014]:
   http://starmadedock.net/threads/another-take-at-the-bubble-shield-stuff.3659/
6. Bubble shields the re-take [Oct 22, 2014]:
   http://starmadedock.net/threads/bubble-shields-the-re-take.3828/
7. How to add fighter role correctly [Jan 6, 2015]:
   http://starmadedock.net/threads/how-to-add-fighter-role-correctly.5207/
8. Replace surface shields with bubble shields [Jan 15, 2015]:
   http://starmadedock.net/threads/replace-surface-shields-with-bubble-shields.5365/
9. Ltmauve's shielding suggestion [Jan 28, 2015]:
   http://starmadedock.net/threads/ltmauves-shielding-suggestion.5564/
   
10. Armor & Shiels [Mar 11, 2015]:
    http://starmadedock.net/threads/armor-shiels.6335/
11. Ltmauve's shielding suggestion [Mar 30, 2015]:
    http://starmadedock.net/threads/a-suggestion-on-shields-and-ship-classes.6673/

Summarisation:

• Already tested and removed due to performance issues

________________________________________________________________________________________

regarding gigantism:

Another "small" compilation of solutions to the "big-ships-are-too-stronk-problem":

This list is far from being or claiming to be complete.
No seriously... At some point literally every thread was rambling about gigantism/max speed based on mass/etc. Therefore just a few of them:

1. A way to effectively balance things mass volume and density [Jun 17, 2014]: http://starmadedock.net/threads/a-way-to-effectively-balance-things-mass-volume-and-density.1578/
2. Nerf shield curves so that shields scale appropriately for titans [Jun 18, 2014]:
   http://starmadedock.net/threads/nerf-shield-curves-so-that-shields-scale-appropriately-for-titans.1581/
3. Game balance the mathematical approach [Jun 23, 2014]:
   http://starmadedock.net/threads/game-balance-the-mathematical-approach.1666/
4. Power crystals [Jun 25, 2014]:
   http://starmadedock.net/threads/power-crystals.1702/
5. Big ships, small ships [Jul 28, 2014]:
   http://starmadedock.net/threads/big-ships-small-ships.2239/
6. To combat gigantism and do new expensive blocks [Jul 28, 2014]:
   http://starmadedock.net/threads/to-combat-gigantism-and-do-new-expensive-blocks.2237/
7. Solutons to discourage gigantism? [Oct 5, 2014]:
   http://starmadedock.net/threads/solutons-to-discourage-gigantism.3531/
8. Ship max speed determined by mass [Dec 11, 2014]:
   http://starmadedock.net/threads/ship-max-speed-determined-by-mass.4678/

This statement pinpoints it:

It's a much debated topic, but I don't think that many people are looking at it correctly.
I liked the quote that Schema gave during the Q and A:
"I didn't make big ships, players did".

Frankly, I feel that besides some minor changes to turrets(rotation speed should be based on mass, and no more silly cones of fire), things are the way that they should be.

You shouldn't be able to use your wimpy little cannons to kill a big ship, which big shields and big armor.

It makes sense.
Think like in Eve online.
You, by yourself, cannot take on a Titan.
It makes sense, and nobody complains.

The reason it happens here Is that everyone wants their ship to be awesome, and it's hard to accept that there are limits to our own creativity and time.

"It makes sense." -Legolas170 -the voice of reason

July 13, 2014.... a philospher and great thinker passed away. His opinion was too reasonable for this world to comprehend.
->time to get a signature

________________________________________________________________________________________

overall Rating:

Bonus points:
+1 for creativity (connecting bubble shields and gigantism (THE 2 COMMUNITY FAVOURITE TOPICS of 2013/2014)
-1 for not mentioning and including pictures of your favourite scenes from your favourite scifi-franchises (e.g. startrek...)
-1 for not adding a poll (e.g.: 1. is this an awesome idea? 2. Do you want this in the game? 3. Do you also think....)
-1 forgot to include phrases like: another approach / retake

Sorry but thats just 6/10 even though its one of our favourite suggestion-topics.
But it will eventually be replaced with the currently upcoming "I have a weapon to replace Pulse"-threads.
________________________________________________________________________________________


Damnit i suddenly feel the urge to write something about bubble shields aswell before its final demise:
I should probably make a new thread but anyways:

Fleet-shields:
Edits: Disclaimer: The suggested fleetshield is not meant to be a substitution to the current shield
Add fleetshield module blocks and a fleet-shield controller block. It works similar to a defensive effect.
By adding more modules you can increase the radius, while increasing the energy cost when turned on.
When turned on all ships inside the radius are affected by the shield and take a fixed percentage less damage from any source (faction affiliation doesn't matter).
(A ship counts as inside the shield, when its core is inside the radius.
To be affected the ships longest xyz must be smaller than the diameter (radius*2) of the shield (to prevent big ships from abusing it.))
A shield texture would be purely aesthetically and the game merely needs to calculate the distance between the shipcore of the shield providing ship and the affected ship.

Ways to balance it:
-tweaking the radius per module and energy cost per module
-tweaking the fixed percentage damage reduction
-possibly adding a duration and cooldown


I think this would be a good addition to the game, as it:
-would provide interesting gameplay aspects (formations etc.)
-would be feasible and ressource/performance-friendly
-and it would make many people happy, because.... BUBBLE SHIELDS

/discuss
and if i forgot to add any relevant thread to the two lists above. PM me: I'll try my best at keeping it updated...

 

[mrsinister]

personally, I do not want bubble shields. I like them as they are, and I would like to think the denizens that created the current shield technology are beyond the old " bubble shield ".

 

[Mariux]

regarding bubble shields:

A "small" compilation of threads suggesting bubble shields:

This list is far from being or claiming to be complete.

1. Suggestion for shield systems [April 23, 2014]:
   http://starmadedock.net/threads/suggestion-for-shield-systems.758/
2. Spherical shields [May 29, 2014]:
   http://starmadedock.net/threads/spherical-shields.1226/
3. The idea of shield radius [Jul 13, 2014]:
   http://starmadedock.net/threads/the-idea-of-shield-radius.1991
4. Rounded shield [Aug 5, 2014]:
   http://starmadedock.net/threads/rounded-shield.2377/
5. Another take at the bubble shield stuff [Oct 12, 2014]:
   http://starmadedock.net/threads/another-take-at-the-bubble-shield-stuff.3659/
6. Bubble shields the re-take [Oct 22, 2014]:
   http://starmadedock.net/threads/bubble-shields-the-re-take.3828/
7. How to add fighter role correctly [Jan 6, 2015]:
   http://starmadedock.net/threads/how-to-add-fighter-role-correctly.5207/
8. Replace surface shields with bubble shields [Jan 15, 2015]:
   http://starmadedock.net/threads/replace-surface-shields-with-bubble-shields.5365/
9. Ltmauve's shielding suggestion [Jan 28, 2015]:
   http://starmadedock.net/threads/ltmauves-shielding-suggestion.5564/
   
10. Armor & Shiels [Mar 11, 2015]:
    http://starmadedock.net/threads/armor-shiels.6335/
11. Ltmauve's shielding suggestion [Mar 30, 2015]:
    http://starmadedock.net/threads/a-suggestion-on-shields-and-ship-classes.6673/

Summarisation:

• Already tested and removed due to performance issues

________________________________________________________________________________________

regarding gigantism:

Another "small" compilation of solutions to the "big-ships-are-too-stronk-problem":

This list is far from being or claiming to be complete.
No seriously... At some point literally every thread was rambling about gigantism/max speed based on mass/etc. Therefore just a few of them:

1. A way to effectively balance things mass volume and density [Jun 17, 2014]: http://starmadedock.net/threads/a-way-to-effectively-balance-things-mass-volume-and-density.1578/
2. Nerf shield curves so that shields scale appropriately for titans [Jun 18, 2014]:
   http://starmadedock.net/threads/nerf-shield-curves-so-that-shields-scale-appropriately-for-titans.1581/
3. Game balance the mathematical approach [Jun 23, 2014]:
   http://starmadedock.net/threads/game-balance-the-mathematical-approach.1666/
4. Power crystals [Jun 25, 2014]:
   http://starmadedock.net/threads/power-crystals.1702/
5. Big ships, small ships [Jul 28, 2014]:
   http://starmadedock.net/threads/big-ships-small-ships.2239/
6. To combat gigantism and do new expensive blocks [Jul 28, 2014]:
   http://starmadedock.net/threads/to-combat-gigantism-and-do-new-expensive-blocks.2237/
7. Solutons to discourage gigantism? [Oct 5, 2014]:
   http://starmadedock.net/threads/solutons-to-discourage-gigantism.3531/
8. Ship max speed determined by mass [Dec 11, 2014]:
   http://starmadedock.net/threads/ship-max-speed-determined-by-mass.4678/

This statement pinpoints it:

"It makes sense." -Legolas170 -the voice of reason

July 13, 2014.... a philospher and great thinker passed away. His opinion was too reasonable for this world to comprehend.
->time to get a signature

________________________________________________________________________________________

overall Rating:

Bonus points:
+1 for creativity (connecting bubble shields and gigantism (THE 2 COMMUNITY FAVOURITE TOPICS of 2013/2014)
-1 for not mentioning and including pictures of your favourite scenes from your favourite scifi-franchises (e.g. startrek...)
-1 for not adding a poll (e.g.: 1. is this an awesome idea? 2. Do you want this in the game? 3. Do you also think....)
-1 forgot to include phrases like: another approach / retake

Sorry but thats just 6/10 even though its one of our favourite suggestion-topics.
But it will eventually be replaced with the currently upcoming "I have a weapon to replace Pulse"-threads.
________________________________________________________________________________________


Damnit i suddenly feel the urge to write something about bubble shields aswell before its final demise:
I should probably make a new thread but anyways:

Fleet-shields:
Edits: Disclaimer: The suggested fleetshield is not meant to be a substitution to the current shield
Add fleetshield module blocks and a fleet-shield controller block. It works similar to a defensive effect.
By adding more modules you can increase the radius, while increasing the energy cost when turned on.
When turned on all ships inside the radius are affected by the shield and take a fixed percentage less damage from any source (faction affiliation doesn't matter).
(A ship counts as inside the shield, when its core is inside the radius.
To be affected the ships longest xyz must be smaller than the diameter (radius*2) of the shield (to prevent big ships from abusing it.))
A shield texture would be purely aesthetically and the game merely needs to calculate the distance between the shipcore of the shield providing ship and the affected ship.

Ways to balance it:
-tweaking the radius per module and energy cost per module
-tweaking the fixed percentage damage reduction
-possibly adding a duration and cooldown


I think this would be a good addition to the game, as it:
-would provide interesting gameplay aspects (formations etc.)
-would be feasible and ressource/performance-friendly
-and it would make many people happy, because.... BUBBLE SHIELDS

/discuss
and if i forgot to add any relevant thread to the two lists above. PM me: I'll try my best at keeping it updated...

Lol, had so much fun reading this...

 

[bdunwithat]

regarding bubble shields:
*snip*

Excellent reads thus far. I've only perused a few but I'd like to clarify my point a bit. It isn't that I think big ships are too stronk, or that shields need a weakness to be fair. It's that a 'bubble shield' (and I use this term hesitantly) allows for a lot of interesting play and counter play which I feel is just plain required for game health later on. Right now this isn't a priority, I'd say an AI/Bobby AI overhaul is probably the most immediate concern.

But as this game takes off, PvP and PvE are going to be one of the central components to the game, and right now the only win conditions are 1) be bigger than your opponent(s), or 2) shoot first. Now 1, is perfectly valid. Enemy faction mined more than you did? Well you lost the battle. Tough titty. 2 on the other hand, is a bit more concerning. Once ships hit a certain size, you generally need to fire your volley before they do the same. And really that leaves no room for anything else. You go big, or you go home, and you build to take them out immediately. That certainly a valid play style, most certainly and I don't seek to remove it. I just seek a way for smaller ships (as in ships smaller than the largest in the fight) to play a stronger role if they can out maneuver/out play their opponent.

Perhaps we need more weapons to fix this problem, maybe we need less alpha damage available. Maybe ship cores shouldn't be the only way to kill a ship. I suppose in retrospect, my issue is more in how PvP is shaping up to be, and not the shields per se. Such things get lost when you're in a rush I suppose.
[DOUBLEPOST=1427737798,1427737069][/DOUBLEPOST]

________________________________________________________________________________________

overall Rating:

Bonus points:
+1 for creativity (connecting bubble shields and gigantism (THE 2 COMMUNITY FAVOURITE TOPICS of 2013/2014)
-1 for not mentioning and including pictures of your favourite scenes from your favourite scifi-franchises (e.g. startrek...)
-1 for not adding a poll (e.g.: 1. is this an awesome idea? 2. Do you want this in the game? 3. Do you also think....)
-1 forgot to include phrases like: another approach / retake

Sorry but thats just 6/10 even though its one of our favourite suggestion-topics.
But it will eventually be replaced with the currently upcoming "I have a weapon to replace Pulse"-threads.
________________________________________________________________________________________


Damnit i suddenly feel the urge to write something about bubble shields aswell before its final demise:
I should probably make a new thread but anyways:

Fleet-shields:
Edits: Disclaimer: The suggested fleetshield is not meant to be a substitution to the current shield
Add fleetshield module blocks and a fleet-shield controller block. It works similar to a defensive effect.
By adding more modules you can increase the radius, while increasing the energy cost when turned on.
When turned on all ships inside the radius are affected by the shield and take a fixed percentage less damage from any source (faction affiliation doesn't matter).
(A ship counts as inside the shield, when its core is inside the radius.
To be affected the ships longest xyz must be smaller than the diameter (radius*2) of the shield (to prevent big ships from abusing it.))
A shield texture would be purely aesthetically and the game merely needs to calculate the distance between the shipcore of the shield providing ship and the affected ship.

Ways to balance it:
-tweaking the radius per module and energy cost per module
-tweaking the fixed percentage damage reduction
-possibly adding a duration and cooldown


I think this would be a good addition to the game, as it:
-would provide interesting gameplay aspects (formations etc.)
-would be feasible and ressource/performance-friendly
-and it would make many people happy, because.... BUBBLE SHIELDS

/discuss
and if i forgot to add any relevant thread to the two lists above. PM me: I'll try my best at keeping it updated...

I appreciate the rating! 6/10 is pretty high for such a poorly written post I feel, but criticism is always good. I will say I didn't add a poll because I thought it would cheapen the discussion. I'm attacking this from a more nuanced play/counter-play perspective and find long winded discussion to be better for learning about the subject.

Now to discuss the real meat of your post.

I think the idea is pretty awesome, along with the benefits you mentioned, we could finally have decent support ships. The lack of support-y ships being effective is another issue in PvP/PvE as far as game play is concerned.

So would the Fleet-Shield ship take the percent damage negated or does the damage just evaporate? Sort of like a projectile dampening field? The only worry I have is the difficulty of balance (Seems very easy to make this too strong or too weak with very little change. Percent damage reduction is dangerous), but that's no reason not to try it.

 

[SkaireKrough]

Currently, shields act as an hp bar for ship blocks, tightly surrounding the entire ship. No matter how byzantine the shape or contour, the shield will protect every block equally. Because of this, large ships are free to stack shields, while small ships can only stay away.

You hit to main problem with the current shield mechanics squarely with your statement. Unfortunately your solution to the problem (which has proven to be problematic to implement) will not fix it. Right now ship/station mass is not a factor in any of the shield equations, this is the root of the large vs. smaller ship shield balance problem. It should take more shield caps to achieve the same strength shield on a larger ship than a smaller one. However, if the shields are kept as one unified shield, I don't think a straight linear progression is the correct answer, neither is making it have diminishing returns like the current thrust mechanics.

I don't know if this is workable but maybe instead on one unified shield, 2x the current shield strength divided by the number of blocks in the ship (including docked units) equals how much shield each block (including blocks of docked units) receives. Possibly having the shields auto re-balance every 0.5-1.0 seconds or maybe a manual key press to re-balance shields. The 2x is to compensate for the difference in mass vs exterior surface, it would be even better if just the external blocks counted in the calculation but I'm pretty sure that would be hard to program.

 

[Dragleones]

Welp... My post above was almost entirely sarcastic.
Exspecially the rating part.
But nevertheless thanks for your appreciation.
Though after reading through your post above, i have to revert from my initial standpoint:
Due to your humble attitude aswell as the above average amount of common sense found in your post above,
you probably deserve atleast 8/10.

Spoiler

The last line was a joke again
But seriously exspecially about this:

I will say I didn't add a poll because I thought it would cheapen the discussion.

I feel like you are like the kid in grim's "the emporer's new clothers" having the courage to point out the obvious, which noone else dares to say.
There is no better way of describing what polls usually contribute to suggestion-threads.

If on the other hand your reply regarding the rating was somekind of next-level reverse sarcasm my mind failed to comprehend
Kudos to you!
I know i still have a long way to go...

But to contribute atleast something constructive to the thread:
_________________________________________________________________________________________________
The no-sarcasm/entirely serious-line:_______________________________________________________________________

Shield vs DPS:

But as this game takes off, PvP and PvE are going to be one of the central components to the game, and right now the only win conditions are 1) be bigger than your opponent(s), or 2) shoot first. Now 1, is perfectly valid. Enemy faction mined more than you did? Well you lost the battle. Tough titty. 2 on the other hand, is a bit more concerning. Once ships hit a certain size, you generally need to fire your volley before they do the same. And really that leaves no room for anything else. You go big, or you go home, and you build to take them out immediately. That certainly a valid play style, most certainly and I don't seek to remove it. I just seek a way for smaller ships (as in ships smaller than the largest in the fight) to play a stronger role if they can out maneuver/out play their opponent.

The game is far away from being that bursty.
When using an equal amount of cannons and shield capacitors then the shield will hold for 15-20 seconds. Depending on the overall amount of cannons/shield capacitors.

Spoiler: combat-duration

The 1/1 ratio for shield/cannon is just thrown in. Many players prefer to actually use much more shield capacitors than cannons, which results in longer fights.
It doesn't really matter since the scaling is linear (slight diminishing return for shield capacitors ).
There is no sweetspot for the shield/cannon=ratio (atleast i don't know of any).
Players can go with as much shields as they want.
And all the fancy graphs ignore dodges/misses and incombat shield recharge.

For the second part:

The most profoundly limiting factor for big ships is *pulls out more fancy graphs*

Spoiler: power

The [modular] indicates the use of docked power generators. In this modeling the docked power generators provide 75 e/sec/block:

Power regen limits the shield recharge/thrust/dps/pretty much anything else.
A 50/70 meter long/wide/tall/whatever ship can easily reach the sweet-spots in power regen (maximum e/sec/block). And i hope nobody considers that too big.

A few small well designed ships (in terms of power-managing) can easily oppose a ship of much greater size.
Yes big ships may use a high amount of power capacitors, but that doesn't really make them consistent, while smaller ships can easily outmaneuver them.
Drones are the best example. They are insanely effective (though expensive and laborious).

Even more limiting factors for big ships:

• jumpdrives charge are based on mass
• thrust is based on mass
• turnrate is based on the ship-dimensions

To sum it up:

Speaking of a ship 100^3 with about 1 million power regen.
A ship of twice its size (200^3) has 8 times more blocks, but is also 8 times as expensive.

However:

1. its far away from having 8 times as much power regen,
2. it needs more thruster and therefore more power to achieve the same thrust/mass ratios
3. with the same amount of shield capacitors it has 7,66 as much shields
4. and much more downsides...

Gigantism is NOT a thing.

@SkaireKrough
We don't need also shield capacitors based on mass/dimensions or with more diminishing return.
(Yes shield capacity is affected by diminishing return, even though its only slightly. It gets much more significant at high numbers of shield capacitors.)
The formula you can find in the block.behaviour.config and the starmade wiki is:
C = (N^0.9791797578) * 110 + 220

C= shield capacity
N= number of capacitors

I can just post this again:

It's a much debated topic, but I don't think that many people are looking at it correctly.
I liked the quote that Schema gave during the Q and A:
"I didn't make big ships, players did".

Frankly, I feel that besides some minor changes to turrets(rotation speed should be based on mass, and no more silly cones of fire), things are the way that they should be.

You shouldn't be able to use your wimpy little cannons to kill a big ship, which big shields and big armor.

It makes sense.
Think like in Eve online.
You, by yourself, cannot take on a Titan.
It makes sense, and nobody complains.

The reason it happens here Is that everyone wants their ship to be awesome, and it's hard to accept that there are limits to our own creativity and time.

About "fleet-shields"
Or better projectile-dampening-field (thanks for the name @bdunwithat i love it <3) does imo not fit into this debate, since its less related to ship balancing than to additional support-systems/powerups/perks/etc.
In my first post above it was more meant as a less serious suggestion of a cheesy way of implementing bubble shields just for the sake of satisfaying anyone asking for bubble shields.
But as i come to really like this idea i'm considering writing an indepth suggestion about support-systems/powerup-cooldowns/etc. at some point.

 

[jath]

my opinion on the shield system is a brand new take. I will make a thread on it.

 

[bdunwithat]

my opinion on the shield system is a brand new take. I will make a thread on it.

What can I say, everyone is a special snowflake, I'm just more special than others.

In all seriousness, I perused the first few pages of the forum, didn't see a thread on the shield subject, and decided to go ahead. I've only been playing about a week, so I had no idea there was such a negative stigma around posts about 'bubble shields'. Live and learn!

Welp... My post above was almost entirely sarcastic.
Exspecially the rating part.
But nevertheless thanks for your appreciation.
Though after reading through your post above, i have to revert from my initial standpoint:
Due to your humble attitude aswell as the above average amount of common sense found in your post above,
you probably deserve atleast 8/10.

Spoiler

The last line was a joke again
But seriously exspecially about this:

I feel like you are like the kid in grim's "the emporer's new clothers" having the courage to point out the obvious, which noone else dares to say.
There is no better way of describing what polls usually contribute to suggestion-threads.

If on the other hand your reply regarding the rating was somekind of next-level reverse sarcasm my mind failed to comprehend
Kudos to you!
I know i still have a long way to go...

But to contribute atleast something constructive to the thread:
_________________________________________________________________________________________________
The no-sarcasm/entirely serious-line:_______________________________________________________________________

Nope, sarcasm free!

Polls can be useful for some things ("Hey guys I'm making my first titan! What color do you think the thrusters should be?) but usually they pre-divide opinions before discussion has begun, or they over simplify the choices. In general the more nuanced the topic, the less useful polls become.

Shield vs DPS:



The game is far away from being that bursty.
When using an equal amount of cannons and shield capacitors then the shield will hold for 15-20 seconds. Depending on the overall amount of cannons/shield capacitors.

Spoiler: combat-duration

The 1/1 ratio for shield/cannon is just thrown in. Many players prefer to actually use much more shield capacitors than cannons, which results in longer fights.
It doesn't really matter since the scaling is linear (slight diminishing return for shield capacitors ).
There is no sweetspot for the shield/cannon=ratio (atleast i don't know of any).
Players can go with as much shields as they want.
And all the fancy graphs ignore dodges/misses and incombat shield recharge.

I suppose this is just anecdotal evidence on my part, but I've found to be an extremely 'strike-first or lose'.
But, one man's experience does not good data make. Heck, it could just be that my faction and the enemy have been so intent to out gun one another that we forgo shields for more weapons. My last capital size ship had around 90k total weapon modules while only 20k shield capacitors (and even less rechargers).

I know, I know, that ratio is madness. But mining just didn't turn up enough components for the shields! I swear!

For the second part:

The most profoundly limiting factor for big ships is *pulls out more fancy graphs*

Spoiler: power

The [modular] indicates the use of docked power generators. In this modeling the docked power generators provide 75 e/sec/block:

Power regen limits the shield recharge/thrust/dps/pretty much anything else.
A 50/70 meter long/wide/tall/whatever ship can easily reach the sweet-spots in power regen (maximum e/sec/block). And i hope nobody considers that too big.

A few small well designed ships (in terms of power-managing) can easily oppose a ship of much greater size.
Yes big ships may use a high amount of power capacitors, but that doesn't really make them consistent, while smaller ships can easily outmaneuver them.
Drones are the best example. They are insanely effective (though expensive and laborious).

Even more limiting factors for big ships:

• jumpdrives charge are based on mass
• thrust is based on mass
• turnrate is based on the ship-dimensions

Wouldn't more power capacitors make it easier to achieve absurd amounts of first-strike damage? Sure they wouldn't pump out absurd amounts of consistent damage but they would have the capacity to support a silly amount of opening damage.

To sum it up:

Speaking of a ship 100^3 with about 1 million power regen.
A ship of twice its size (200^3) has 8 times more blocks, but is also 8 times as expensive.

However:

1. its far away from having 8 times as much power regen,
2. it needs more thruster and therefore more power to achieve the same thrust/mass ratios
3. with the same amount of shield capacitors it has 7,66 as much shields
4. and much more downsides...

Gigantism is NOT a thing.

That's all well and good. Like I mentioned I am not really a fan of the whole 'big ship bad game play' argument. I do feel that there should be a definite, large power gap between small ships and larger ships. They simply brought more stuff/were better prepared. My issue is there doesn't seem to be much game play occurring after a certain point. It's just you lost. You can't really outmaneuver their large amount of fire power. My idea for shields was to add more game play to this equation.

If a smaller ship (not a fighter, just some degree smaller than the big ship) has enough ability to get into shielding they can do significant damage. Maybe this incentivizes them to take overdrive to support this end. Perhaps big ships start needing to consider push/pull effects to keep them maneuverable to prevent that from occurring. In short, I only suggested the shielding change, to facilitate more varied player interactions. After reading those posts, I can see this might not be the right avenue of attack.

I can just post this again:


About "fleet-shields"
Or better projectile-dampening-field (thanks for the name @bdunwithat i love it <3) does imo not fit into this debate, since its less related to ship balancing than to additional support-systems/powerups/perks/etc.
In my first post above it was more meant as a less serious suggestion of a cheesy way of implementing bubble shields just for the sake of satisfaying anyone asking for bubble shields.
But as i come to really like this idea i'm considering writing an indepth suggestion about support-systems/powerup-cooldowns/etc. at some point.

I believe this is just as worthwhile a discussion to have than any other! any idea that could increase play/counterplay is pertinent to what I was getting at. I think that forcing players to cooperate and form decent formations to get the most of the Projectile Dampening Field would provide an interesting nuance for how PvP goes down. Especially in faction v faction combat. It also reinforces that ships have a 'zone of control' around them which is already true, it just makes that phenomena easier to understand.

Power-ups and the generally lack-luster buff system is an excellent avenue of attack. At the moment, the buffs are generally considered to be wasted when used alone, aside from ion/overdrive. I'm all for more buffs or changes to current ones.

 

[Valiant70]

[EDIT] As has been noted, this is not only an un-original idea, the post is quite poorly written. Feel free to skip over this dime a dozen post to the actual discussion.[/EDIT]

Currently, shields act as an hp bar for ship blocks, tightly surrounding the entire ship. No matter how byzantine the shape or contour, the shield will protect every block equally. Because of this, large ships are free to stack shields, while small ships can only stay away.

My rudimentary illustration:
View attachment 10479

What if we changed to that? What if shields were a bubble that expanded outside of the ship proper? And what if the size of the shield was decided by the size of ship protected? And finally, what if ships could pass through that bubble, but not projectiles?

Large ships would have a huge amount of dead-space between their shields and themselves. Small agile fighters could slip through the shields on the ship and wreak havoc directly on the ship itself. Warheads would have a use on suicide drones. Essentially this would give large ships a weakness, and small ships some measure of usefulness.

I know my writing needs some work, but I do hope my idea (and moreover the implications of such a change) shine through