A Shipwright's Alpha Game Rant

    Valiant70

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    This is by no means a complete list, but it's a start. Excuse the rant, but it had to be done...
    1. Core placement. The stupid thing has to be in the center of the ship or the ship rotates weirdly and looks terrible. It has to be accessible. It is the ONLY #$%^&* place you can fly the ship from. All of these things combine to make it an awkward piece of alpha game crap.
    2. Turret blindspot. Certain ship shapes do not lend themselves well to turrets. There might be one or two places one MIGHT look good. The problem is that while turrets rotate 360 degrees about their y axis, they cannot rotate 90 degrees about the x axis, leaving a huge blind spot directly above each turret. This means one turret on each side of a symmetrical ship will not give full coverage of the vessel, so you either leave the blind spot or find another spot to put a turret (looks flippin' UGLY on my current build).
    3. Turning system. No, it's not half-baked. It's FULLY baked. Anything but a doom cube is sub-optimal for maneuverability. Tear this one up all you want. There is no counterargument to this: You can fit more blocks in a minimized boxdim if said blocks are arranged in a cuboid.
    That's the top three, and the ones that are driving me so nuts right now that I'm about ready to return to Minecraft until Starmade reaches beta.
     
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    Ithirahad

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    Out of these, the main one that pisses me off is the first one. It's probably not even hard to fix, compared to what Schema's now working on, but he seems to have been putting it off for something like years now. Piloting from somewhere that isn't the core is always coming, and never comes... It needs a goddamn fix.

    As for the others... The turret blindspot is hard to avoid without turrets clipping into ships at a 180-degree angle, which would look kind of retarded. Cal mentioned that the barrel and base of the turret may become separate entities, but that sounds really hard to do, so I doubt it... As for the turning system, yes, it's currently a steaming pile of space whale dung, but there's no easy fix to that problem.
     
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    Valiant70

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    As for the others... The turret blindspot is hard to avoid without turrets clipping into ships at a 180-degree angle, which would look kind of retarded. As for the turning system, yes, it's currently a steaming pile of space whale dung, there's no easy fix to that problem.
    Screw clipping. It's better than the blind spot. No one is going to bother changing that ONE line of code to fix that since there's a turret update coming anyway. I just hope we don't keep that retarded thing after the turret update.
     

    Ithirahad

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    Screw clipping. It's better than the blind spot. No one is going to bother changing that ONE line of code to fix that since there's a turret update coming anyway. I just hope we don't keep that retarded thing after the turret update.
    You know what's retarded? The clipping. It already looks god-awful at the 45 degrees or whatever; do you really want turrets turning straight up in the air and burying their back half in the hull? With large turrets, this might result in interiors actually getting blocked up by turrets clipping through... Kind of hilarious but also terrible. Besides, no weapon should have a full dome of 180-degree coverage, especially not one that auto-aims. Turrets as they are kinda screw up large ship/small ship balancing already, among other things.
     

    Jaaskinal

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    You know what's retarded? The clipping. It already looks god-awful at the 45 degrees or whatever; do you really want turrets turning straight up in the air and burying their back half in the hull? With large turrets, this might result in interiors actually getting blocked up by turrets clipping through... Kind of hilarious but also terrible. Besides, no weapon should have a full dome of 180-degree coverage, especially not one that auto-aims. Turrets as they are kinda screw up large ship/small ship balancing already, among other things.
    I tend to build largish turrets, sometimes it's really an awkward thing trying to figure out why there's a massive wall in a corridor where you didn't remember one.
     
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    I agree with #1 and #3, but not #2. Real turrets do have/would have blind spots. Assuming that a real turret has power/control/ammo-feed/etc running into the main ship it will always have limitations to it's movement, nothing that has anything other than the most tenuous connection to the main ship would be able to do both a full 360 degree rotation about its main axis and tilt at 90 degrees to that axis. If you want turrets that can fire vertically, give them vertical guns.
     
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    Valiant, I know that you have been here a while. Surely you know if there was an easy alternative to ship cores then it would be a thing, but it's not. I'm betting so many parts of the game are based off this core mechanic that it would take a few months to work in an alternative. If you want to play Minecraft while that happens, then by all means go ahead and do that.
     
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    You know what's retarded? The clipping. It already looks god-awful at the 45 degrees or whatever; do you really want turrets turning straight up in the air and burying their back half in the hull? With large turrets, this might result in interiors actually getting blocked up by turrets clipping through... Kind of hilarious but also terrible. Besides, no weapon should have a full dome of 180-degree coverage, especially not one that auto-aims. Turrets as they are kinda screw up large ship/small ship balancing already, among other things.
    I agree with most of what you said but giving turrets an arbitrary blind spot is a pretty terrible way to try and balance them since it just means you need more turrets to have full coverage. It might make it harder for ship builders to get there but it doesn't actually prevent the thing you're trying to prevent.
     
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    1. Core placement. The stupid thing has to be in the center of the ship or the ship rotates weirdly and looks terrible. It has to be accessible. It is the ONLY #$%^&* place you can fly the ship from. All of these things combine to make it an awkward piece of alpha game crap.
    2. Turret blindspot. Certain ship shapes do not lend themselves well to turrets. There might be one or two places one MIGHT look good. The problem is that while turrets rotate 360 degrees about their y axis, they cannot rotate 90 degrees about the x axis, leaving a huge blind spot directly above each turret. This means one turret on each side of a symmetrical ship will not give full coverage of the vessel, so you either leave the blind spot or find another spot to put a turret (looks flippin' UGLY on my current build).
    3. Turning system. No, it's not half-baked. It's FULLY baked. Anything but a doom cube is sub-optimal for maneuverability. Tear this one up all you want. There is no counterargument to this: You can fit more blocks in a minimized boxdim if said blocks are arranged in a cuboid.
    Well you should be happy, because 1 & 3 are false.

    Length & height affect turn speed, width does not. L1, H1, W500 turns like a core. How do builders never notice this???

    You are perfectly able to off-center your core to the left or right as far as you want without your turns suffering.

    A fun design is to put your core on the far left or right end of a very wide but short ship. You get fantastic turns, and players are now faced with a choice in attacking - they can try to core you at one end of your ship but their misses won't damage your other systems much, or they can go after your ship systems and disregard your core. What they can't do with this build is shoot for your core and wreck the rest of your ship with the collateral damage even if they don't actually core you. Only problem is bumping into stuff like a baseball bat...

    This also means cubes don't turn optimally by mass - wide cylinders (like a horizontal NPC shop) do, and the core can be anywhere along that bar without affecting maneuverability.
     

    Ithirahad

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    Well you should be happy, because 1 & 3 are false.

    Length & height affect turn speed, width does not. L1, H1, W500 turns like a core. How do builders never notice this???

    This also means cubes don't turn optimally by mass - wide cylinders (like a horizontal NPC shop) do, and the core can be anywhere along that bar without affecting maneuverability.
    Well, most Sci-Fi ships happen to be long and somewhat thin in width... And many have empty interior space. It sucks that a large, solid brick with the same box dimensions turns at the same speed as a ship with not nearly the same density.
     

    Valiant70

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    Well you should be happy, because 1 & 3 are false.

    Length & height affect turn speed, width does not. L1, H1, W500 turns like a core. How do builders never notice this???

    You are perfectly able to off-center your core to the left or right as far as you want without your turns suffering.

    A fun design is to put your core on the far left or right end of a very wide but short ship. You get fantastic turns, and players are now faced with a choice in attacking - they can try to core you at one end of your ship but their misses won't damage your other systems much, or they can go after your ship systems and disregard your core. What they can't do with this build is shoot for your core and wreck the rest of your ship with the collateral damage even if they don't actually core you. Only problem is bumping into stuff like a baseball bat...

    This also means cubes don't turn optimally by mass - wide cylinders (like a horizontal NPC shop) do, and the core can be anywhere along that bar without affecting maneuverability.
    3 is true. Yes, I do plan to exploit this odd turning mechanic (my next build is already planned in a way that facilitates this) however, there's a lot more to both core placement and turning. Both LIMIT good choices in ship design. Star Trek is overused, so I'll use Starship Andromeda as an example. Those big loops look cool, but they'd be hugely impractical on a medium weight starmade ship. The moment you add extra dimensions and empty spaces for slick style, the game mechanics swing the nerf bat. I hate that!

    1 is also true. The ship you described will turn about a point far removed from its center of mass, which looks idiotic. If ships could turn approximately about the center of mass (within several blocks of it at least), I could put up with the stupid core.
     
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    I agree with most of what you said but giving turrets an arbitrary blind spot is a pretty terrible way to try and balance them since it just means you need more turrets to have full coverage. It might make it harder for ship builders to get there but it doesn't actually prevent the thing you're trying to prevent.
    So you want to make small, perfectly covered ships with 2 turrets? I don't think so.

    If you want better coverage, you should add more turrets. Can't fit them, build a bigger ship or live without. They ruin your design? Well too bad, live with it.

    I see a lot of people complaining about things, and ultimately the core of their problem is they want to build an "all-in-wonder" ship that serves every purpose, which is silly. There is no such thing as a perfect ship. Except maybe a doom cube, so accept your fate of be assimilated.
     
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    So you want to make small, perfectly covered ships with 2 turrets? I don't think so.

    If you want better coverage, you should add more turrets. Can't fit them, build a bigger ship or live without. They ruin your design? Well too bad, live with it.

    I see a lot of people complaining about things, and ultimately the core of their problem is they want to build an "all-in-wonder" ship that serves every purpose, which is silly. There is no such thing as a perfect ship. Except maybe a doom cube, so accept your fate of be assimilated.
    You can get effective total coverage with just four turrets which isn't the huge balancing factor you're making it out to be. If you want turrets to be balanced you need to look somewhere other than forced blind spots like turn rate scaling off mass.
     

    Valiant70

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    You can get effective total coverage with just four turrets which isn't the huge balancing factor you're making it out to be. If you want turrets to be balanced you need to look somewhere other than forced blind spots like turn rate scaling off mass.
    *BASHING AGREE BUTTON WITH SLEDGEHAMMER*
     
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    #2 is your problem,you want some god based turrets that can spin around your ship 360 and make you coffee?
    turrets dont work like that irl

    but the problem with turning your ship x,y,z based on width,lenght and height will be solved, something like this:
    you will rotate your thrusters in whatever way you want,and place as many as you need them to make turning left/right,up/down more faster,so there is no limit,just the amount of dedicated thrusters directed /left/right/up/down .
    that is the only realistic way i see,and i think that was in QA a year ago
     
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    3 is true. Yes, I do plan to exploit this odd turning mechanic (my next build is already planned in a way that facilitates this) however, there's a lot more to both core placement and turning. Both LIMIT good choices in ship design. Star Trek is overused, so I'll use Starship Andromeda as an example. Those big loops look cool, but they'd be hugely impractical on a medium weight starmade ship. The moment you add extra dimensions and empty spaces for slick style, the game mechanics swing the nerf bat. I hate that!

    1 is also true. The ship you described will turn about a point far removed from its center of mass, which looks idiotic. If ships could turn approximately about the center of mass (within several blocks of it at least), I could put up with the stupid core.
    1 is true if your focus is LOOKs. I didn't realize that appearance was your point. It sounds like you're talking about whether you can make ships LOOK like the ships you see in movies...
    3 is still false. A cube of 1M mass extends farther in length and height than does a horizontal cylinder of 1M mass, and since extension into Length and Height are the only factors affecting optimal maneuverability a cube can NOT turn as quickly on either axis as can a horizontal bar. The accepted popular wisdom that "cubes are best" does not change the reality of the game engine. L100H100W100 DOES turn far slower on both axes than L50H50W400, and both are 1M blocks.

    IRL every bit of decor and extra space you add to, say, a seagoing vessel or aircraft, also gets nerfed by physics. There aren't any tennis courts on the ISS. Battleships don't have big luxurious mess halls that just look awesome. Jets are not covered with bling and glowing panels and weird things sticking out that make them LOOK dangerous. They naturally look dangerous because they're designed around exploiting physics, and not star trek mock-ups with systems stuffed in after the fact. I don't see any military submarines out there built to look like frogs because someone thought it would LOOK cool. Subs look cool because we all know how powerful and dangerous they are, not because they were designed based on looks.

    Your ship will naturally look cool as it vanquishes all your enemies with shields and power to spare because you only made a tiny cockpit for your toon. If no one has ever seen anything like it - all the better. Shock & awe.

    If you lay down a 600-unit primary power core horizontally and wrap it with a few secondary generator cores, you'll have enough power to support not only a ton of firepower, but also a reasonably sized interior space (modest bridge, cramped crew quarters, and small engineering section). As long as you aren't trying to cloak it - you should be able to place plenty of stuff on it and not hurt your turn radius much as long as you cling to the horizontal axis as much as possible. You can pack a lot of material into a space roughly 600 wide and no farther than 20 or 30 blocks in any direction from the central power core.

    Star Trek ships have a certain flavor to their design, so you can usually recognize one as belonging to ST even if you've never seen that model before. Eve ships also have a certain specific look and flair to them. Ships built to be effective and attractive in Starmade will also have a distinctive flair to them, influenced by the rules of the game. I'm like that - I don't think we need to fit every new game/show into the artistic boxes of what has gone before.

    If flying a reproduction of a ship from a movie you watched is what's most important to you - I mean no disrespect. That's totally cool. There are games that let you do that already out there. I have just never seen any indication that Starmade was being designed to be a movie space ship simulator and don't understand why so many people get upset that their Millenium Falcon can't hold a candle to a ship designed based on knowledge of the game engine gained through testing, and a desire for excellent performance first and foremost. I've boarded a few reproduction ships and most of them are huge pointless wads of hull with a lot of non-functional interior space and decoration and few crammed-in systems. If those ill-considered hunks of metal could match well thought out, system-oriented craft I probably would have quit months ago.
     

    Ithirahad

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    Star Trek ships have a certain flavor to their design, so you can usually recognize one as belonging to ST even if you've never seen that model before. Eve ships also have a certain specific look and flair to them. Ships built to be effective and attractive in Starmade will also have a distinctive flair to them, influenced by the rules of the game. I'm like that - I don't think we need to fit every new game/show into the artistic boxes of what has gone before.
    Just one little, tiny, massive problem with this. Nobody wants to see ships flying around that are just giant boxes or wide, clumsy rectangular-prismatic rods. Even if the ideal design(s) looked awesome, which is nigh-impossible since this is a game of blocks and the best shape will probably always be a solid block, the whole allure of a voxel game is that you can build whatever you want in whatever shape you want, and ideally I'd like to see Starmade's mechanics support that more than they do now.
    If flying a reproduction of a ship from a movie you watched is what's most important to you - I mean no disrespect. That's totally cool. There are games that let you do that already out there. I have just never seen any indication that Starmade was being designed to be a movie space ship simulator and don't understand why so many people get upset that their Millenium Falcon can't hold a candle to a ship designed based on knowledge of the game engine gained through testing, and a desire for excellent performance first and foremost. I've boarded a few reproduction ships and most of them are huge pointless wads of hull with a lot of non-functional interior space and decoration and few crammed-in systems. If those ill-considered hunks of metal could match well thought out, system-oriented craft I probably would have quit months ago.
    ...With this block of text, you just ignored a good portion of the playerbase, which likes building nice ships that have interiors (Or at least, cool exteriors), which aren't replicas of anything. I dunno about you, but I'd rather see things like this:

    (Thanks FlyingDebris !)
    than this:


    Ew!
     
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    FlyingDebris

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    Since when is THIS:



    Prettier than THIS:



    Real ships, real beauty. End the impossible standards set by professional builders.
     
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    Ithirahad

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    As much as that's hilarious, I'm kinda sorta close to just reporting that and getting it outta here. I put my images in spoiler tags for a reason.

    EDIT: Thanks.
     
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