solution to discourage large scale planet mining, tectonic feedback

[AtraUnam]

Totally didn't read the second half of the comments here:
My first though on seeing this (and other ides that would prevent orbital mining of planets) was that I didn't like it because its cool to have a big Ishimura style planet cracker. Then I read the ground mining post and thought about the 'tethers' they use in dead space to drag a huge chunk of a planet into orbit. It would actually make orbital miners/planet crackers more epic because you would actually require a ship big enough to 'crack' a planet by blowing it up into its individual segments before you could mine it.

 

[toasts]

IMHO people who do this look like self-centered assholes that think nobody can read their name to the left. It also extends the length of the page by a decent bit if you post multiple times on the same thread.

Well in my honest opinion I don't really care about your opinion. Don't call people self-centered assholes just because they do things different than you. And my "~Toast" Increases the size of the page a fraction of what most peoples signatures do.

~Toast

 

[Cablestinks]

If this is the case for you, you are likely using a planet miner on asteroids. Planet miners can be much wider and slower than asteroid miners. When I asteroid mine with my specially tuned asteroid miner, I get roughly the same amount of minerals per minute as I do planet mining with my planet miner. I use overdrive and a decent thrust ratio. The asteroids are gone in 1-2 clicks of my beam. I tend to fly in the orbital ring, and by the time I loop around, the asteroids have respawned. I don't use any slave because it seems to slow down mining on the asteroids, even though it seems to increase planet mining speeds. I use a 40x30 double waffle system with 24 length groups, I orient the miner so the long side matches the long side on the asteroid. 4:1 thrust ratio, and overdrive. I have 800,000 power regen, and 1.2 million power storage.

I find it's better to have an array thats slightly smaller than the larger asteroids so fewer beams miss, increasing the length of the groups, and I can scan across the asteroid, than to have an array that is twice the size of the asteroid, wasting power.

Asteroid mining and planet mining require very different machines to be efficient.
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The whole point of this is to discourage planet mining in the first place. If a few people have to loose an array or two to do it, so be it. If you can find a workaround, good for you, but the whole point of discouraging planet mining is to increase galaxy exploration ability. I would rather see mining colonies on planets than the dead worlds we've grown accustomed to.

It would be really cool too be able to hire NPCs to work in your mining camps. They could automatically dig mining shafts and build small habitations, shops, and landing pads (if you told them to do so.)

Your sounds alot like mine, except mine is 30 double waffle. power around 1mil. Maybe I'll do another refit and see if it is differant.

 

[lazarus78]

Feedback from a salvage beam hitting the core? Mine from the side. Makes the idea moot.

If planets had something worth exploring, then sure, discourage away.

 

[Valiant70]

If this is the case for you, you are likely using a planet miner on asteroids. Planet miners can be much wider and slower than asteroid miners. When I asteroid mine with my specially tuned asteroid miner, I get roughly the same amount of minerals per minute as I do planet mining with my planet miner. I use overdrive and a decent thrust ratio. The asteroids are gone in 1-2 clicks of my beam. I tend to fly in the orbital ring, and by the time I loop around, the asteroids have respawned. I don't use any slave because it seems to slow down mining on the asteroids, even though it seems to increase planet mining speeds. I use a 40x30 double waffle system with 24 length groups, I orient the miner so the long side matches the long side on the asteroid. 4:1 thrust ratio, and overdrive. I have 800,000 power regen, and 1.2 million power storage.

I find it's better to have an array thats slightly smaller than the larger asteroids so fewer beams miss, increasing the length of the groups, and I can scan across the asteroid, than to have an array that is twice the size of the asteroid, wasting power.

Asteroid mining and planet mining require very different machines to be efficient.
[DOUBLEPOST=1425664001,1425663573][/DOUBLEPOST]


The whole point of this is to discourage planet mining in the first place. If a few people have to loose an array or two to do it, so be it. If you can find a workaround, good for you, but the whole point of discouraging planet mining is to increase galaxy exploration ability. I would rather see mining colonies on planets than the dead worlds we've grown accustomed to.

It would be really cool too be able to hire NPCs to work in your mining camps. They could automatically dig mining shafts and build small habitations, shops, and landing pads (if you told them to do so.)

Now this is news. Time for some good 'ol R&D.

 

[DraconisDomini]

Feedback from a salvage beam hitting the core? Mine from the side. Makes the idea moot.

Like Lazarus said, feedback from hitting the core would not stop people planet mining, they would just mine sideways and strip the surface off. I also, as a physicist, find the idea of 'lightning travelling back up the salvage beam' highly unrealistic. I understand that it is just a justification for trying to come up with a method for reducing planet stripping, but it just doesn't make sense.

 

[Runeseer]

The idea is simple. If a salvage beam hits the core of a planet, it will send feedback to the emitting block, damaging it. This will still allow people to mine planets with small miners, but larger planet eaters would quickly become damaged to the point of near uselessness.

In real mining, if you drilled down the the core of the planet, your drill would likely melt. There's a risk of damaging your equipment if you use it improperly. There should be a similar risk here.

I read all the above posts…

I highly disagree with any feature that makes planet mining more difficult. As of right now the only use I see for planets is strip mining.

Physics and gravity processing on server side I believe is the source of “Planet Interaction” lag.

Mining a planet from orbit does not trigger much of the server intensive processing. Titan sized mining arrays may cause lag spikes as the server tries to keep up with the block calculations.

The question that must be asked is “Why are planets a focus of player attention?”

1. One group of players want a “minecraft” like ground experience (base building etc)
2. Another group wants the bulk resources a planet provides

I am in the latter category. Want to build 10k shield capacitor blocks? Good luck finding enough of the rare blue asteroids that yield the ores and shards that you will need. I see a new planet as 12 possible plates that could feed my hungry factories.

As to the “ground experience”…

If they make planets 10 times larger (with no planet interaction lag) and have NPC life forms, THEN planets may be interesting enough to save from my mining arrays.


Off topic:
I support toasts

 

[Cablestinks]

Yours sounds alot like mine, except mine is 30 double waffle. power around 1mil. Maybe I'll do another refit and see if it is different.

K I've don a refit and it makes no difference, w/o cannon slave it takes longer to mine either planet or asteroid. Perhaps you can upload your savager, so i can see what i'm doing wrong

 

[jath]

interestingly enough, mining from the side so you don't hit the core doesn't cause nearly the lag that hitting the core causes..

Aside from that, how is wanting usable planets "minecrafty"

This argument is so full of logic holes I don't know where to begin.

I was talking to someone about mountable dinosaurs in a different game and they said something along the lines of "that's too much like minecraft to be able to ride something."

I asked him if minecraft was the only place he'd ever seen a horse.

It's like minecraft invented trees and rocks... WTH?!

I want a planet because exploring a vast empty nothing is boring. Exploring planets is awesome. Case closed.

If the enterprise never visited a planet, was it because minecraft wasn't around yet?

Did they have minecraft a long long time ago in a galaxy far far away to copy when they invented Tatooine?

Seriously.....

 

[Valiant70]

I highly disagree with any feature that makes planet mining more difficult. As of right now the only use I see for planets is strip mining.

SHOO! SHOO!

1. One group of players want a “minecraft” like ground experience (base building etc)
2. Another group wants the bulk resources a planet provides

I am in the latter category. Want to build 10k shield capacitor blocks? Good luck finding enough of the rare blue asteroids that yield the ores and shards that you will need. I see a new planet as 12 possible plates that could feed my hungry factories.

You want bulk resources? Kill planet mining and set your server's mining multiplier config option to 10 or something. Then you get bulk resources that actually respawn so you don't chew through a galaxy's worth of planets. MOAR bulk resources! (and fewer blocks to mine so there's less lag)

As to the “ground experience”…

If they make planets 10 times larger (with no planet interaction lag) and have NPC life forms, THEN planets may be interesting enough to save from my mining arrays.

Yeah, planets are really an unfinished feature. Hopefully there will be more ground content in the future. Larger planets would be nice, but Schema & team need a way to optimize massive numbers of blocks first. I've had ideas for completely new planet mechanics, but no one wanted them.

 

[FullMetalFox]

If this is the case for you, you are likely using a planet miner on asteroids. Planet miners can be much wider and slower than asteroid miners. When I asteroid mine with my specially tuned asteroid miner, I get roughly the same amount of minerals per minute as I do planet mining with my planet miner. I use overdrive and a decent thrust ratio. The asteroids are gone in 1-2 clicks of my beam. I tend to fly in the orbital ring, and by the time I loop around, the asteroids have respawned. I don't use any slave because it seems to slow down mining on the asteroids, even though it seems to increase planet mining speeds. I use a 40x30 double waffle system with 24 length groups, I orient the miner so the long side matches the long side on the asteroid. 4:1 thrust ratio, and overdrive. I have 800,000 power regen, and 1.2 million power storage.

That never would rival a real planetminer.
Just some stats from my Factions small Planetminer (limited due to server rules)
200 Beams, 2x100m array, each beam has 400 salvage power, aka what is needed to salvage 1 block, at 40 ticks per second, yeah thats 40 blocks per second per beam, or for the whole array, 8000 blocks per second. and yes thats the small one, your 40x30 (i guess that means 1200 beams) would break the server rules there.

The trick with planetmining and lag is Orientation and not wasting ticks.
Orientate your ship so its level with the planet plate you want to mine, you can even use a docking module on the planets plate to do that.

Ticks, every block need 400 salvage power to be salvaged.
So if your salvager has 10 salvage power, it needs to hit that block 40 times, aka 1 second per block. Now if you use faster salvagers, lets say you build one with 90 salvage power, is would need to hit a block 5 times to reach the 400. but 5x90 is 450, so thats 50 wasted salvage power, either go down to 80 to save some space on your ship, or go up to 100 salvage power to reduce the ticks needed per block to 4. So yes your 24 lenght, aka 48 salvage power beams are unefficient.

 

[Runeseer]

interestingly enough, mining from the side so you don't hit the core doesn't cause nearly the lag that hitting the core causes..

Aside from that, how is wanting usable planets "minecrafty"

This argument is so full of logic holes I don't know where to begin.

I was talking to someone about mountable dinosaurs in a different game and they said something along the lines of "that's too much like minecraft to be able to ride something."

I asked him if minecraft was the only place he'd ever seen a horse.

It's like minecraft invented trees and rocks... WTH?!

I want a planet because exploring a vast empty nothing is boring. Exploring planets is awesome. Case closed.

If the enterprise never visited a planet, was it because minecraft wasn't around yet?

Did they have minecraft a long long time ago in a galaxy far far away to copy when they invented Tatooine?

Seriously.....

Seriously Jath...
StarMade is based on Minecraft. So anything developed can be considered “Minecrafty”

You suggest changes to the game that would curtail people like me from strip-mining planets. I explain why I feel this is a horrible idea:
Needed resources that you may not be able to get from asteroids
Bulk resources that are only available on a planetary scale

Asteroid mining does not address either point.

I even go as far to provide criteria were I would agree with you.
Planets 10 times larger
No lag from planet interaction
NPC life forms

You boil your argument down to “I want a planet because exploring a vast empty nothing is boring. Exploring planets is awesome. Case closed.”

Currently a planet is a small empty lifeless hexagon of dirt and minerals. What do you expect to find on your explorations?

I would suggest you apply your creativity and present ideas for making planets worthy of being spared from strip mining and not suggest that my salvagers get wrecked when I do.

Valiant70 until there are better ways to mange resource configuration I will continue with my belief that planets are big rocks to mine.

As a case in point…

Last night I needed to make 50k Ion Modules and I was all out of Varat.
All the shops within the 2 systems my faction owns were out of Ion Modules
I buy all the Varat I can from the shops
One of the 2 systems has asteroids, I mine all that have Varat

Still not enough Varat

I then find a planet plate that has Varat… problem solved, factories happy.

If planet ownership through system faction control provided access to resources without destroying the planet I would support it 100%.

 

[Valiant70]

Seriously Jath...
StarMade is based on Minecraft. So anything developed can be considered “Minecrafty”

You suggest changes to the game that would curtail people like me from strip-mining planets. I explain why I feel this is a horrible idea:
Needed resources that you may not be able to get from asteroids
Bulk resources that are only available on a planetary scale

Asteroid mining does not address either point.

I even go as far to provide criteria were I would agree with you.
Planets 10 times larger
No lag from planet interaction
NPC life forms

You boil your argument down to “I want a planet because exploring a vast empty nothing is boring. Exploring planets is awesome. Case closed.”

Currently a planet is a small empty lifeless hexagon of dirt and minerals. What do you expect to find on your explorations?

I would suggest you apply your creativity and present ideas for making planets worthy of being spared from strip mining and not suggest that my salvagers get wrecked when I do.

Valiant70 until there are better ways to mange resource configuration I will continue with my belief that planets are big rocks to mine.

As a case in point…

Last night I needed to make 50k Ion Modules and I was all out of Varat.
All the shops within the 2 systems my faction owns were out of Ion Modules
I buy all the Varat I can from the shops
One of the 2 systems has asteroids, I mine all that have Varat

Still not enough Varat

I then find a planet plate that has Varat… problem solved, factories happy.

If planet ownership through system faction control provided access to resources without destroying the planet I would support it 100%.

Asteroids simply aren't rich enough. I've been saying this forever, but they need to be buffed LIKE HECK and planets just need to be reworked so that they yield a ton of resources but not by melting them with salvage beams. Many players want a different form of mining that works on planets so that we have a motive for planet bases besides aesthetic/fun.

 

[Winterhome]

Two hours of mining a planet out with a fairly decent salvager, you walk out with ~150k of each resource or so.
Two hours of flying and mining every asteroid you see at 300m/s in 1km sectors = ~50k

Also, planets are the only reliable method of getting mass quantities of shield modules.