Thoughts and suggestions after a play through

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    Dear all,

    After a pretty solid play through I'm ready to hang up my space suit and move on to another game, though I'll be coming back to Starmade in the future to see how its progressed. Before I do I'd like to share a few observations, for what its worth. Apologies in advance for this wall-of-text, bear with me..

    First, I want to say what a cool game this is, lots of potential & depth and also the best customer support of any game I've played. Having a few issues running the game I was in correspondence with Andy Puttman from support, the last email I received from him was at half past midnight - Christmas day! That really is dedication above and beyond the call of duty IMO.

    This is mostly a list of things I dislike and suggestions to make the game better. There's a ton of things I love about the game, but since I already think they're great there's no point mentioning them. I'll list these numerically for simplicity's sake.

    ------------------

    1. Autopilot. A common request I know - and I'm sure its coming, but it really can't come soon enough for me. Currently its a very dull affair sitting there with your finger glued to the W key. I want to tell the ship where to go and then be able to get up and wander round the interior, looking out the windows or play a game of space chess with my (Wookie) first mate. I don't want to sit there like a lemon for five minutes holding the W key!


    2. Property roster. For pity's sake what is the point of a vast procedurally generated galaxy when you can't locate any of your stuff when you're more than a few Km away from it? Perhaps there is a way that I missed, but really, its putting the cart before the horse having sexy Newtonian physics and in depth power/mass ratios etc. when you haven't covered the very basic things like "where the hell is my ship?" Same applies to point 1.

    Look at Egosoft's X3 series. You could do worse than copy a few of their ideas for points 1 & 2 as they had it pretty well covered. And now that they've set fire to their franchise with the execrable X-rebirth I'd say there's a gap in the market for the things X3 was good for.


    3. Fleets. I want to see fleets of fighters launching from my carrier, not just drones but fighters piloted by hired NPC's who will gain experience and have morale and who I'll feel sorry for when they're ultimately vaporised.


    4. Capital ships. Again a common thread in discussions but it sticks out like a sore thumb in the game. Though the laws of physics may permit a massive ship to handle like a fighter given enough power & thrust, but it makes for a particularly shitty game mechanic. If a massive ship can do everything a small ship can, but is 100 times stronger, there's absolutely no point flying a small one. That capital ship just becomes a regular one (because they're all like that) and the whole thing loses any meaning.

    I would also say (and I know that I'll be crucified for this) that the forums seem to have a very vocal contingent who have pumped a lot of time & effort into building their enormous ships and don't want to see them nerfed in any way. Well sorry guys, that needs to change or the game will be the poorer for it.

    5. Planets. Sorry. Planets are no good (even putting the lag aside), nor are the asteroids. I know its a voxel game and all but blocky asteroids and terrain don't cut it for me. I had a play through of 7 Days to Die recently and their landscapes look great. I don't know if your engine could support what they've done - I suspect not or you'd have surely have done it.

    I do however love the slow rotation you get on the planets, its pretty cool to see the star field rotate around you when you're on the surface. If there could be some sort of reason to have that on a lag-free station I'd love that too!

    6. Movement range in astronaut mode. Sucks. Really needs the full 360 degree range of movement.

    7. Roll speed on ships. Insanely fast compared to turn speed. Desperately needs toning down.

    8. No save game. Ok I understand this is how you want it. However, if you have a game-killing glitch and crash (as I did) it can be a real pain in the backside!

    9. Simplicity. This should really be 9,10,11 & 12 - if there's one thing you pay attention to this should be it.

    The logic/push-pull etc. modules are great and all, but I promise you 99% of your players will never bother with any of it. At the moment you have a dedicated core of players, many of whom are rather clever and get a kick out of this sort of thing. As the game opens up to a wider audience of casual players, I doubt many of them will be bothered to take a degree in Starmade just so they can set way points or program a drone or miner etc. By all means keep it in there but give the player an easy and intuitive UI to do all the normal things you'd want to do.

    10. Zoom and zoom monitor. Perhaps I missed how to do this but you need to have a zoom function. Also half the time the enemy you'll fighting will be just a few pixels wide on your screen so it'd be nice to select them and bring up a window showing you exactly what they look like.

    Well, anyone who's just read all of that probably deserves a medal. Thanks all & I'll see you again down the line.

    Cheers,

    Riff
     
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    CyberTao

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    Eh, I'll throw out my opinions on this;
    1) Fairly common request. Most people say to just stick a coin or something under a heavy object to hold down W, but then you still can't explore your ship.

    2) I call it 'Notepad'. That would be a lot of ships to list if you count drones, and it gets complicated in terms of faction security - you either have it all broken up among the members, or have all faction ship locations displayed for any member. I dunno, it really seems like something that's mainly cosmetic with little function to me.

    3) AI is being worked on, eventually you will be able to have a 5 or so NPC fleet following you plus better drones. Experience or anything along the lines of leveling up, probably not a thing the game needs, but meh. Just my opinion.

    4) There was a thruster change planned for some point, dunno when though. And I wouldn't worry about the community bitching over a change like that, I mean we handled the weapon update without all the newer fancy advance build functions like filter just fine.

    5) Nope. 7DtD is actually a bad example to use, since that is flat terrain. If you could get a mental image of what would happen if you continued to build upwards on a curved surface using blocks, it'd be easy to see why. Unless you meant deformation, but that would increase lag by a bit I think, I dunno, I'm not techie.

    6)skip

    7) Roll speed is based on the mass, height and width of the ship (Turning along the other plans uses the Length + height or width, and most ships are decidedly largest in length).

    8) Save game? The game uses Auto-saves as well as the option to /force_save. Unless you meant that you lost a ship, but that is why we have blueprints - to get back ships. Unless you want to save scum (Save -> Lose -> reload -> repeat until win), to which I'd have to say Nty.

    9) Logic is fairly simple to use if you try to learn it. For those that don't want to learn, then we have templates of various Logic-run objects like Airlocks for them to download and use.

    10) Zoom would be nice.

    And so concludes my opinion.
     
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    Check back in a few months. We have seen some tremendous improvements in the last several months, and it will probably accelerate as the engine really gets streamlined.
     

    MossyStone48

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    I'd like to ask you to not just 'play through' once leave an opinion and check out. Stick around. Comment on other suggestions. Add to them. This game is in too early a state for a snap review and so much has changed greatly over the last 3 months. There's more changes to come as well. For an example just compare two aspects. The crafting system from four months ago to now. Huge difference. And compare the tutorial from a year ago to Dalmont 's included tutorial. Light years apart. I mean literally. The tutorial takes you far away to an deserted sector to teach you everything without worry of interruption.

    Contribute more if you can. Please. Make video, create lore, help hunt bugs, build a snowman. The game won't improve without participation by the community. And a community is YOU.
     
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    Howdy,

    I was going to write a similar post and this post has pretty much the same title I was going to write, so here’s where I’ll put my 10 bits in too, and comment on previous ideas. (Yey, verily, I hath read the posts before mine and have noted that things are in the works, not possible, etc.)

    Firstly, to the Devs ... You guys are great and doing an awesome job.

    1. Autopilot - I’ve used the weight on the W key myself, not only in StarMade but in lots of other games too. Each game I ask myself “Why? Why? Why can’t I just toggle this key on and off?” With StarMade, I can understand from the point of view of someone who owns a server wouldn’t want people to just leave their ships on autopilot towards the next galaxy and log off leaving their ships flying forever, or griefers leaving 20+ ships flying forever. Or that a player might set the autopilot, accidentally leave their ship, and never be able to catch up to the ship again, which would just keep moving and take up server processing. I would love a ‘limited autopilot’ that would let me keep moving forward until reaching a System boarder, reset the autopilot after crossing the boarder, and then kick back and wait for the next boarder crossing. Then the max you’d have to worry about players loosing their ships or letting them travel unattended would be the Sectors within the System the ship initiated autopilot in.

    1.5 Advanced Build Mode (ABM) - Speaking of keys I think should be toggles ... the key for entering ABM. Or better yet, leave the current key how it is, and map a second key that also enters ABM, but toggles. That way people who like it as is can be happy and those that would like to toggle.

    2. Property roster.
    “For pity's sake what is the point of a vast procedurally generated galaxy when you can't locate any of your stuff when you're more than a few Km away from it?”
    Space IS big, really big. I mean, you might think it’s a long way down to the pharmacist, but that’s just peanuts compared to Space.

    I don’t need a list of where every towel I own is all the time. Generally speaking any towel, er ship, I’m not currently using at the time is docked at Outpost Alpha at 0 63 -15. There are two shops in my system, one at 6 56 -3, and one at 6 58 -7, as well as one in -9 58 -21 in the neighbouring System. I used a notebook at first, until I’ve entered the coords so many times that I just have them memorized. I still use it for asteroid locations and lesser used locations. Plus I post important ones on display screens in my cockpits.

    I know where I want to go, but why do I have to manually the coords .. every .. single .. time I want to go somewhere??

    Being able to maintain a list of custom nameable waypoints would be awesome.

    More along the lines of the original poster’s idea ... being able to bring up a list of the locations of any faction blocks of your faction would be nice for keeping track of specific assets.

    3. Fleets - I have only just begun to experiment with turrets, so I’ll just sit back and wait for the previously mentioned work being done on npcs to surprise me. :)

    4. Capital ships - I think the big ships that others have made look pretty cool (Mushroom Fleet!). Most of my ships tend to be pretty small. Space IS big, really big. I think there’s room for everyone.

    5. Planets - Thank you for including them. They lag the laptop I use hard, but I’m glad to see they’re there for when I get a better computer to play on. Personally, I think your asteroid generation is good. Sometimes I come across asteroids when I’m mining that I kinda feel bad about destroying. Love the lava, but part of me wonders why it doesn’t cool when exposed to space. I like that you included black holes :)

    6. Movement range in astronaut mode -
    Boy, does it ever suck.

    Day 1 on Mushroom Fleet’s server - Build a quick ship with my starting gear, buy some stuff at the shops which are pretty much sold out of everything, and headed for unclaimed space. Got to a System where I was leaving areas claimed by factions and only open unclaimed stars before me, dug a hole in an asteroid, landed, logged off for the night.

    Day 2 - Yay, my ship is still intact. I’m enjoying a leisurely flight when I’m suddenly reminded I have no shields when I arrive back at spawn in 0 0 0. The only thing I saw of the pirate was the system message that it had killed me. <facepalm> Now I’m back at spawn with zero power cells and zero thrusters. Fortunately I spawned right next to someone’s shuttle, which I borrowed to take me to the three shops in the area, all of which are sold out of power cells and thrusters. :( So I returned the shuttle to it’s parking place and prayed to the server gods for help. Fortunately they were kind enough to help me out.

    While I was waiting for the server god’s ship to arrive I was thinking to myself “Man, space is big, really big. It would totally suck to be this little guy floating out there with all this nothing around you.”

    Lesson learned = Always have in thine inventory at least 1 each of Ship Core, Power Cell, and Thruster. Preferably more.

    7. Roll speed on ships -
    "Insanely fast compared to turn speed. Desperately needs toning down."
    Yes. I can’t even use the keys. One tap and I’ll randomly be between 45 and 110 degrees off from where I started. I always have to hold CTRL and use my mouse.

    8. No save game - skip

    9. Simplicity - I have yet to mess with the logic stuff, so have no opinions on it yet.

    10. Zoom monitor.
    "Also half the time the enemy you'll fighting will be just a few pixels wide on your screen so it'd be nice to select them and bring up a window showing you exactly what they look like."
    Oooo, a little window to show distant targets in sounds neat :) I can also see how that'd be a lot of work and will probably have to be some kind of mod after the game is released.

    StarMade is awesome and I look forward to seeing whatever the Devs work into it.
     
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    CyberTao

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    With StarMade, I can understand from the point of view of someone who owns a server wouldn’t want people to just leave their ships on autopilot towards the next galaxy and log off leaving their ships flying forever, or griefers leaving 20+ ships flying forever.
    Just to poke at your post a bit, your point here is more or less moot.
    Sectors in starmade will unload if there are no players within 2(?) sectors for so long, causing everything within them to unload. This means that unless a player stays with ship it will unload from memory, locking it in place until the sector reloads (All it does is take up a little bit of memory).

    As far as "20 griefers" goes, you can already do that by attaching push effects to a logic loop. It can very easily happen on servers already, so it's not really a reason against auto-pilot.

    The only reason you listed that may be true is that players may crash/fall off and lose their ships. But for cruise control you could probably easily get away with only letting the ships reach maybe 80% of the server limit. Most people want Auto-pilot so they can tab-out on long trips or explore their ship, so I dont think that'd be too much to give up in exchange for recovery insurance. Hell, maybe they can get it so that Auto-pilot disables if there is not a player within the ship's dimension-box.
     
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    CyberTao

    2. Nope, I'm not interested in manually writing a list down of everything I do and own. When I played X3 I had a huge fleet, a few dozen capitals, hundreds and hundreds of fighters and the same again in satellites & drones and I was able to locate everything individually within a few seconds. It's really not hard, you just have lots of filters to hide the info you're not interested in. Though it was an unwieldy interface, they nailed that aspect rather well (with a lot of help from the modders).

    3. Yes I'm sure its on the way. Hopefully an NPC piloted ship will be much more effective/useful than a drone and worth having.

    4. I'm actually a lover of big ships, though I enjoy dogfighting as well. Big ships only seem big if you have a host of smaller ones around to compare it to however. There needs to be a point to having/flying a fighter - something it can do that a big one can't.

    5. Yes I was referring to the deformation of the blocks in 7DTD. They managed to make hillside slopes that are almost seamless - makes for a very pretty view. I don't have any better idea than the octagonal method for planets currently used -'how do you square a circle/globe' is a question that has occupied the best mathematicians for centuries so I'll leave it well alone :) With the deformation though you'd get a nice 'realistic' vista once you were down on the ground. Also with the 'roids, they'd look realistic with the deformation except for the seams where the planes meet. That's something I could happily live with.

    8. I don't have a problem with the no save, as long as I don't crash & lose days worth of grinding (which I did - as my ship also de- materialised so console commands were no help to me in that instance).

    9. I also personally like the logic systems, they're a fresh approach to the whole thing and give players a chance to be clever & creative. However, casual players will for the most part not bother at all with them. Also its strange to me that I can traverse the galaxy in my star cruiser, yet have to get a special logic system just to have an automated door. That's just silly - my local supermarket has those & I wouldn't exactly call that place the pinnacle of technology! Most people will simply not bother and so miss lots of the games features entirely.

    Common things you'd want to do should all be taken care of with a simple intuitive UI. Logic systems should be for the esoteric things that the 'leet players will want to get up to.

    Mr.Steam:

    Yes, I will definitely check back in a few months (or sooner). This game has a lot of potential and I'm looking forward to seeing how it develops.


    WarSong

    Yes, this is a review based on an incomplete understanding of the game, though in the short time I've had it I've pumped in a fair few hours. That's probably a lot more time than most casual players will give before they come up with an opinion so what I've said is still valid. Also, first impressions are useful in my experience. As you get used to a game you find workarounds for the annoying aspects and eventually you forget that they were so annoying in the first place. Casual players won't bother, they'll just stop playing, pausing only to leave a shitty review on Steam on their way out.

    Anyway, I will stick around, I like the game and the community and there's a lot left for me to see. I haven't even played on the multiplayer servers yet so that's something I'll check out at some point.

    TKR101010

    It seem like were on the same page with most of this, thanks for your response!


    Thanks for all your comments guys, and Happy New Year to you all!
     

    jayman38

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    Maybe the game loader could be updated to automatically ask the player if they would like to download all the logic templates from the Community Content into their available template blueprints for pasting directly into new builds.

    Edit: Maybe update it after more content is added to only download the top 10/20 of the best logic blueprints....
     
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    Just to poke at your post a bit, your point here is more or less moot.
    Totally understandable. My knowledge of how processing is actually handled is pretty much nil. That was just my layman's mind trying to come up with what I thought might be reasonable explanations.

    I don't understand why you put "Words Warning" in your spoiler title. ?

    I forgot a suggestion in my last posting ...

    Creative mode - Yes, one can add oneself to the admin list for your solo games, /givecredits <player> <amount>, /giveid <username> <id> <amount>, etc., but being able to just have a World with Creative mode would be nice.
     

    MossyStone48

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    Our more conscientious forum goers realize that something they are posting might be taken to a greater degree than their context allows. Maybe it's off topic. Maybe it's a macro'd image of a tired meme. Regardless.. if they are about to subject you to a strong opinion they might place it in a spoiler and warn you first. This is merely a courtesy but an appreciated one. As gestures go.


    I might own a copy of the album. It doesn't mean I don't think some tracks are utter sh*t.
     

    Valiant70

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    There are only two points I disagree with you on. The first is...
    9. Simplicity. This should really be 9,10,11 & 12 - if there's one thing you pay attention to this should be it.

    The logic/push-pull etc. modules are great and all, but I promise you 99% of your players will never bother with any of it. At the moment you have a dedicated core of players, many of whom are rather clever and get a kick out of this sort of thing. As the game opens up to a wider audience of casual players, I doubt many of them will be bothered to take a degree in Starmade just so they can set way points or program a drone or miner etc. By all means keep it in there but give the player an easy and intuitive UI to do all the normal things you'd want to do.
    By keeping some amount of entry barrier on this (just like there is a bit of entry barrier on even designing a decent ship), you maintain the value of the skills held by clever people like me. I'm still learning about the different things I can use logic for, but believe me, I enjoy this sort of thing immensely and wouldn't mind fetching some credits for my skills.

    The second:
    Planets are no good (even putting the lag aside), nor are the asteroids.
    Asteroids are fine. They just need some resource rebalancing to make them worth eating. Planets are meh. I wouldn't say they're no good, but they're not great either. Fixing the buggy/weird/ugly atmosphere and making them useful and better optimized would be a start, but I'm not a huge fan of the dodecahedrons. I think the overall idea is here to stay, but I hope the engine can at least be optimized to the point where we can have planet segments some 1-2 km wide without lagging. There also needs to be some sort of "distant imposter" horizon scenery for those who can't render the entire planet at once.

    At that point, I'd care a lot less about the annoying fissures at plate edges. We also need a better way to find things on the surface of large planets than leaving a core renamed "navigation beacon 00X" lying around.
     
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    1. While a needed addition try using a jump drive, it will significantly reduce the time traveling.

    2. Kill a pirate station and use a log book that you can usually find. I'm not sure you can get these any other way yet but there may be an admin command. It's not an ideal solution but it's a little more "realistic". Just don't loose it. I also do agree that this would be a nice feature.

    3. Planned feature although I'm not sure you will get swarms of fighters from carriers but you should be able to at least control a small (5) battle group

    4. Large ships may be able to accelerate as fast as a fighter but they will never handle like them as they turn ungodly slow

    5. They are much better than the disk worlds... and they are probably going to stay as they are. They are kind of iconic now

    6. You know you can align yourself to objects right?

    7. Doesn't this also adjust with the size and shape of the ship?

    8. You can adjust how often the game saves itself and there are some other options to force the game to write to disk as far as I am aware.

    9. There wasn't even a suggestion here

    10. Yes, much needed feature.
     

    Lecic

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    I agree with everything except 5 and 9.

    For 5, I expect a blocky ship game to have blocky planets and blocky asteroids as well.

    On 9, I think that it's fine. More tutorials on the stuff would be nice. Look at Minecraft. How many people know or use redstone beyond the basics? Maybe 0.1% of the player base? Just because it's complex doesn't mean they can't use things designed by other people.
     

    Bench

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    Appreciate you taking the time to write Riff I do think it's important for us to hear the perspective from players who have only just started playing. A lot of our community players who have been playing for what seems forever are definitely passionate and jump in to say how you could do this or that, but I for one definitely value the fresh feedback as it gives us a perspective of what a new player is thinking. At the end of the day if you love the game you'll invest time into learning how to do the various things, but it's important to us that you can enjoy the game from the get go as well.
     
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    4. Capital ships. Again a common thread in discussions but it sticks out like a sore thumb in the game. Though the laws of physics may permit a massive ship to handle like a fighter given enough power & thrust, but it makes for a particularly shitty game mechanic. If a massive ship can do everything a small ship can, but is 100 times stronger, there's absolutely no point flying a small one. That capital ship just becomes a regular one (because they're all like that) and the whole thing loses any meaning.
    That is because ships that are >10k mass are hardly considered a frigate, let alone a capital ship...
     

    Valiant70

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    7. Roll speed on ships. Insanely fast compared to turn speed. Desperately needs toning down.
    This is because most ships are long and sleek. There's a lower pseudo-moment of inertia about the z axis. Bulkier, shorter ships will have a roll speed similar to their yaw and pitch.
     
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    About turn speed - small ships turn fast, and a titan will turn about the same speed as a corvette. That needs changing, the mass-based turning system was(IMO) better. Though, I wasn't around for that.
     

    Valiant70

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    About turn speed - small ships turn fast, and a titan will turn about the same speed as a corvette. That needs changing, the mass-based turning system was(IMO) better. Though, I wasn't around for that.
    I have mixed feelings about that. It was more balanced for pure-combat ships with aesthetic exteriors and overall shapes, but far more punishing to my favorite variety of ship, which balances interior and exterior aesthetics with high combat performance. You couldn't do a lot of what you can now and maintain good maneuvering performance.