how to FORCE deathcubes to be fancy looking

[linwe talion]

After severe building experience I've found several things I don't like at the moment. Also I heard the community dislikes them as well, so here are some thoughts on how can it be *easily* fixed by future updates.

Bad thing one. Death cubes.
Lots of people complain about them in the game. The others build them.

Bad thing two. Armour does nothing and can be torn like paper.
All the capital ships rely only on shields, when shields are down, you are dead. In fact, the more overpowered design you want to have, the less armour you place on it, thus often turning it into a death cube.

Bad thing three. All the decorations cost a lot of money, do no defense or have no practical meaning, add mass and have no benefits.
Yes, for roleplay players it is ok, as they are happy just with the existence of a wide diversity of blocks, which add fancyness to the ships. But the "shoot em all" players would really like the improvements not only to cost money and be part of a show-off feeling, but also add some functionality.

So. What can we do with the drunken sailor?

Suggestion 1. Add space radiation and make all the inner structures blocks vulnerable to it.
Btw, it is based on a real situation, so nothing queer in that. If u make a deathcube exposed to the sun, it just burns slowly, shields do not regen, weapons do not shoot etc. The only way is to cover the inner structures (engines, capacitors, generators etc etc etc) with armour.

The naughty voice: But what should it change? The deathcubes will be just covered with thick layers of armour, rectangle and dumb.

Yes, you are right, my friend, and thus here's the...

Suggestion 2. Add logic to armour. Larger flat fields of armour are less strong, have less defense from radiation and require all those triangles, multi-levels and other fancy blocks to have their defense level back to normal.
And that has real life analogue too, as they never use flat armour in vehicles, tanks etc.
After that, the cubes will never be the same. And won't ressemble to cubes anymore.

Suggestion 3. Add more HP to armour.
And by "more" I mean MORE. but make it highly variable as said in Sugg.2

Suggestion 4. Add functionality to fancy blocks.
there could be many, e.g.

• medical pc blocks add health to the player while inside the core, thus making the core heavier to overheat.
• metal mesh and other barrier blocks reduce radiation from the generators (forgot to mention it above).
• hazard stripes make it easier to drive smaller ships inside carriers
• etc etc etc.

 

[Mr. V]

Suggestion 2. Add logic to armour. Larger flat fields of armour are less strong, have less defense from radiation and require all those triangles, multi-levels and other fancy blocks to have their defense level back to normal.
And that has real life analogue too, as they never use flat armour in vehicles, tanks etc.
After that, the cubes will never be the same. And won't ressemble to cubes anymore.

Suggestion 3. Add more HP to armour.
And by "more" I mean MORE. but make it highly variable as said in Sugg.2

Suggestion 4. Add functionality to fancy blocks.
there could be many, e.g.

• medical pc blocks add health to the player while inside the core, thus making the core heavier to overheat.

I especially like the suggestion of making certain patterns of armored hull beneficial that would encourage players to build more creatively.

Interestingly enough, I think Schema might have already added the medical health block option you mentioned, I haven't tried it out yet, but it was advertised about a month ago for .1705 on Schema's youtube channel.


I also noticed that on 0.175 (possibly before... I've just started playing again after a few months away) they have added in a lot more types of armor with varying amounts of hp (still not really enough to be overly protective though).

Good stuff!

-Mr. V

 

[Criss]

1 : What if I want to use the system blocks as detail on the externals of the ship? Your suggestion limits me in that they will melt as a result of being uncovered by armor.

2 : Not only would the game have to render the ship, but it would have to calculate areas of the ship that are stronger based on what? Designs patterns or variations in the hull? Who determines what works and what doesn't? Suddenly players are forced to use specific designs simply to get a ship that can withstand a pounding. Want structural integrity? Add more hull.

3 : A new health system will replace core-killing, giving armor more value. The problem is not "make hull stronger" because players will ALWAYS build larger guns. Starmade has no limits currently. Although having the efficiency decrease with larger weapons would possibly help.

4 : That stuff is obvious and the functions of those blocks have already been worked on a bit (medical blocks). In the future I am sure we will see more but other larger updates take precedence. How would hazard stripes lead to easier docking? We shouldn't make the game THAT easy. Lets at least have some degree of skill necessary for the gameplay.

 

[linwe talion]

1 : Suddenly players are forced to use specific designs simply to get a ship that can withstand a pounding.

yes, that is exactly what I am suggesting - to limit creativity, in fact, to limit the abusing the wide variety of possibilities. Look through the most excellent ships on the depository - almost none of them have the features you are so afraid to lose. And those, who have, can be easily refitted.
And now look at the doomrpojects. They exploit the building freedom.

So, basically, it is a question about "What should we use as a basis, as an idea\philosophy for all builds? Is it about real life or is it about non-limited (and not mentioned in sci-fi too!) freedom of building anything you like?"
Me myself would answer with following sci-fi designer's words - no design detail should have "just for fancyness" cause to exist. Every detail should have its real life intention and real life usage. Like, I don't jut put armour here, I put armour here BECAUSE I want to PROTECT something under it. And I don't just make several groups of generators, I make them not one, because they will explode to hell if the group is too big. Etc.

So, yes, in general, I want to reduce freedom of building and

Lets at least have some degree of skill necessary for the gameplay.

 

[Criss]

There should be absolutely no restrictions on what you can build. You do not need to be associated with people that build doomcubes, of which I haven't seen in approximately a year. I also see competent ships that feature some of the best designs around. Implementing this level of "realism" will make gameplay dry. Players should build what they want. If the game is going to force me to build a certain design over others then why don't they just give me the ship and remove my building capabilities. Same result.

And to be fair. It is not an exploit that players are building doom cubes. It's a valid decision and it works because of the game mechanics. If schema thought this was a widespread issue there would have been changes already.

 

[Mr. V]

I think making hull more effective when employed in certain ways wouldn't limit the builder.

I think this suggestion for hull would still allow people to build the way they always have while also encouraging people to build more interesting looking ships if they feel like maximizing their use of hull. It would also give everyone a little more to think about in terms of how hull can be employed in the game when they build.

For instance, it is well known how power works by most players - extending in three dimensions spreading outwards as far as you can without overlapping or doubling back will easily bring out much more efficient power set-ups. A lot of people tend to settle on less efficient power schemes for a number of reasons (aesthetics, available space, needing to work around internal rooms, or to add some extra redundancy to their system so that a single shot won't cripple a large portion of your ship's power supply).

Currently this game makes it difficult to build beautiful ships that are even close to as effective as they could be --- it doesn't stop most of us from still trying to make good looking ships that pack a punch.

-Mr. V

 

[Proxima_Centauri]

How about this:

A new hitpoint system is going to be implemented eventually, so why not have hull be the one and only thing that adds hitpoints to a ship?

In order to "overheat" a ship you would need to cause as much damage to it as all the hp of every hull block on that ship put together (or 1/10 of that value, whatever is balanced). Shooting the ship anywhere would bring down the hp by the amount of damage that shot did on impact. The total hp of a ship could be brought down by causing extensive damage to the outer hull. The hp's of a ship could be brought back using astrotech beams.

This would make hull an actually useful block without having to change the amount of memory each block requires and slowing performance.

 

[SomethingSlimy]

yes, that is exactly what I am suggesting - to limit creativity

No.

 

[NeonSturm]

StarMade currently limits design choices.
You don't believe me? Think about all the threads about stealth ships.

If you don't want to limit design, remove all blocks except some basic - different by cost.
They automatically form an array which can be controlled only as a whole by a controller.
The controller defines the array's function.
Each block type can only have certain types of controllers.

That means that you can use hull blocks as a weapon, weapon blocks as a weapon...
The efficiency is based on the blocks resource costs relative to the requirements of the controller.

If you wanna use a thruster as toilet - it does not count as a thruster until you connect it to a thrust controller.
If you want a trash can that looks like a thruster, have a storage-controler beneath it or it connected to one.​

OK maybe now you wanna rethink what limitation actually means.


I think the only way to solve this is forcing 5 decorative (or hull) blocks per 1 effective (energy, weapons, shields, thrust) blocks.

 

[jath]

I don't think space radiation is the answer. There are plenty of smaller ships that aren't doom cubes that have exposed systems that are going to take a beating. They put the armor is strategic places, and it still looks good with the exposed systems.

I like the large plane being weaker idea. This would require cubes to add things like Aztec-ing to the faces.

However, the way I think it should work is that when an armor block is hit, it spreads the damage evenly to any adjacent blocks, and and blocks directly behind it would also reduce the damage it takes, and share it. There is precedence for this IRL. If you send a large projectile at a plate, there is damage radially around the impact point. Increasing the thickness behind the plate would actually reduce the probability of this damage taking place in the first place. A really thick plate won't hardly get a scratch on it. The reason being that the face is being supported by the material behind.

What this will do will cause ships to have smaller places that are vulnerable at various angles. if you shoot at an angle, there are more blocks behind it. If you shoot a flat plane, there's a better chance you'll punch a hole through it, and system blocks behind it won't reduce damage, and instead take it.

Fact of the matter is, if you have the option between a piece of armored hull in the back, and a shield, the shield will add health to the front of the ship as well, making it more useful. This leads me to another idea. Quadrant shielding. The shields should only protect an area within a certain distance immediately around the block. The other shield blocks would rapidly recharge that block after it being hit, causing the overall shields to drain at the same rate as now. (maybe a little slower if the damage is going through). This would enable sustained focused fire to break through shields earlier if the target doesn't maneuver or turn in such a way to expose a different shield section. You could also give the player to prioritize quadrants on the fly. Spreading the shields out evenly, or charging a specific section faster. This would be separate from the recharge blocks which would add to all blocks evenly.

This quadrant size could be based on the overall ship dimensions too, that way a small fighter still wouldn't be able to drill a hole through a mother-ship by itself, but it would be a little easier for an organized group of fighters to punch through if they are focusing on the same spot.[DOUBLEPOST=1414525476,1414525049][/DOUBLEPOST]MINDGASM, Just had an AMAZING IDEA!

Why not have hull and hull only be shieldable?! Why the hell wouldn't that be the case anyway? Shields should have to be transmitted through some medium, not magically appear all over the ship. Why wouldn't hull have that medium built in? In order for shields to work, you need hull in the first place?!

DUH!! why didn't anyone else think of this before?![DOUBLEPOST=1414526011][/DOUBLEPOST]Edit, there would be a list of blocks that would benefit from shielding, but they would be blocks that would normally be on the outside of a ship... IE, Lights, crystals, doors, etc. If you still want exposed systems, you'd simply cover it in glass, or have a block like area trigger that would be not there but weigh a little bit and transmit shielding. For beams to be more efficient, you'd basically build a hole for the missile or beam or whatever to go through, but in order for another ship to hit it, they'd have to be at exactly the right angle.

 

[ltmauve]

[DOUBLEPOST=1414525476,1414525049][/DOUBLEPOST]MINDGASM, Just had an AMAZING IDEA!

Why not have hull and hull only be shieldable?! Why the hell wouldn't that be the case anyway? Shields should have to be transmitted through some medium, not magically appear all over the ship. Why wouldn't hull have that medium built in? In order for shields to work, you need hull in the first place?!

DUH!! why didn't anyone else think of this before?![DOUBLEPOST=1414526011][/DOUBLEPOST]Edit, there would be a list of blocks that would benefit from shielding, but they would be blocks that would normally be on the outside of a ship... IE, Lights, crystals, doors, etc. If you still want exposed systems, you'd simply cover it in glass, or have a block like area trigger that would be not there but weigh a little bit and transmit shielding. For beams to be more efficient, you'd basically build a hole for the missile or beam or whatever to go through, but in order for another ship to hit it, they'd have to be at exactly the right angle.

Because for some smaller ships, the docking box is a limitation. My fighters have exposed systems because I decided on a standard size docking module, and all my small ships need to fit in them.

Also, that's not going to fix doomcubes as trolls will just coat them in a single layer of hull and leave it at that.
We could have shields be increased by the armor of the block that gets hit, just as a reason for using the armors. (with an appropriate capacity nerf to shields)

You can get rid of doomcubes, but players will still make ugly ships optimized for the rules. At least now it is fairly obvious what is a doomcube or not at first glance.

 

[Ithirahad]

Why not have hull and hull only be shieldable?! Why the hell wouldn't that be the case anyway? Shields should have to be transmitted through some medium, not magically appear all over the ship. Why wouldn't hull have that medium built in? In order for shields to work, you need hull in the first place?!

DUH!! why didn't anyone else think of this before?![DOUBLEPOST=1414526011][/DOUBLEPOST]Edit, there would be a list of blocks that would benefit from shielding, but they would be blocks that would normally be on the outside of a ship... IE, Lights, crystals, doors, etc. If you still want exposed systems, you'd simply cover it in glass, or have a block like area trigger that would be not there but weigh a little bit and transmit shielding. For beams to be more efficient, you'd basically build a hole for the missile or beam or whatever to go through, but in order for another ship to hit it, they'd have to be at exactly the right angle.

Already suggested, but an excellent idea. I really want a dev (specifically @Calbiri or @schema ) opinion/response on this, though... Personally, I really want to see it ingame, but IDK.

Also, thrusters should be shielded too, BTW. They seem to be the only systems block designed specifically to appear on the exterior of a ship.

 

[ltmauve]

Already suggested, but an excellent idea. I really want a dev (specifically @Calbiri or @schema ) opinion/response on this, though... Personally, I really want to see it ingame, but IDK.

Also, thrusters should be shielded too, BTW. They seem to be the only systems block designed specifically to appear on the exterior of a ship.

Also, shots sometimes phase through a ship and hit stuff inside. I would be ticked if a shot took out my weapons as the fight started.

 

[Ithirahad]

Also, shots sometimes phase through a ship and hit stuff inside. I would be ticked if a shot took out my weapons as the fight started.

Bugs can be fixed. I'd rather have the occasional computer spontaneously blowing up than the current, annoying system anyway.

 

[ltmauve]

Bugs can be fixed. I'd rather have the occasional computer spontaneously blowing up than the current, annoying system anyway.

What's annoying about it?
I would rather have the armor-boosts-shields method, as in your way it punishes players for having exposed anything except hull.
With armored shields, you get a benefit for having hull, and better hull, but you can still put down anything and have it still be protected.

 

[TheOmega]

Hey, maybe death cubes are a good thing (said no one ever)! It should be that hulls act like other blocks, with increase to HP though. And after a certain size of hull blocks touching each other, you would need to switch the type of hull, or crystal, or lights, or make it indented or engraved to keep its effectiveness.
Take power blocks as an example. Except they lose effectiveness and do nothing after say 10 are connected. So, to keep its effectiveness it would need to have a lot of groups.

 

[ltmauve]

Hey, maybe death cubes are a good thing (said no one ever)! It should be that hulls act like other blocks, with increase to HP though. And after a certain size of hull blocks touching each other, you would need to switch the type of hull, or crystal, or lights, or make it indented or engraved to keep its effectiveness.
Take power blocks as an example. Except they lose effectiveness and do nothing after say 10 are connected. So, to keep its effectiveness it would need to have a lot of groups.

Copy-paste patterns. Tada, I just beat the system. A doomcube is still a doomcube even after a paintjob.

 

[Ithirahad]

In the end, there's no ending doomcubes. About the best we can do is force them to be covered in hull, crystal, or doors so that they don't look quite as lame.

 

[jath]

This issue isn't about the shape of a ship. It's a balance issue between Shields and hull.

You can still have deathcubes in any system we build. They will still be effective and useful. That's why the borg use them. The major gripe I have about them is that mass for mass, hull vs. shields, shields always wins. This means you'll save weight by not including it. This means a faster ship, a stronger ship, and a more damaging ship.

The Easiest solution I can see is to make hulls and other exterior blocks benefit from shields more than system blocks do. If you want to have exposed systems, that's fine, but make sure to put hull in strategic places that will protect it, or cover it with glass.

 

[NeonSturm]

The easiest way I see is requiring 5 decorative blocks per 1 vital.

Then encourage a low target profile more than a big hull plating.

As the core can only be destroyed after xx% of destroyed hull blocks, make a spider-web like ship where enemy guns have to target new spots very often to get a certain % of hull blocks killed.
That way projectiles which are still on the way when there is a hole through your ship will also miss.
That way projectiles which punch through to empty space behind are wasted.
AI will be fucked anyway as it targets the center :p

-my opinion-