block HP balance

[Neon_42]

I think we'd all agree that weapons vs blocks in the current game 0.175 is really unbalanced. once a ships shields are depleted it is pretty much a death sentence. In order to balance this I suggest the following.

Schema adds a "Structural integrity bar" or "armour bar". This bar would behave much like shields do, but with no recharge. The amount of structural integrity would depend on the number of hull and armour blocks on the ship, or the mass of the ship. If it depends on the ship mass, different blocks will have to be different masses. Once this bar is depleted then blocks start being destroyed. This has the added bonus of ships with interiors will have more armour than ships without due to the higher mass or more hull blocks.

This would work well in terms of HP vs maneuverability because more maneuverable less massive ships will have less armour than ships with more armour blocks.

 

[Winterhome]

We're getting an HP system eventually.

 

[Sven_The_Slayer]

So essentially a secondary shield? No mater what you call it, something that has to be taken down to zero before you can damage block is a shield, and this has been suggested many times already.... we already have a shield we don't need a second one based on hull. It may make sense in games that have solid ships that take "hull damage" but not being able to destroy parts of the ship when shields fail kind of takes away from the fact that ships are actually built out of parts that can be destroyed.

The HP system will make it so you cannot simply destroy the ships core in order to kill a ship but you will still have to deal damage to it's parts.

 

[jayman38]

This would be a perfect addition to a variation on the core game that completely excluded energy shielding. (For example, if you wanted a universe where shields weren't possible or hadn't been invented yet. I'm currently building a project originating from such a property where shields aren't a thing.)

 

[Criss]

I suggested something a bit different earlier. Essentially all three hull types add to your hull "pool". The more advanced the armor the more is added to that pool. Armor is added to increase this armor health. It should be easy to accomplish considering we can already determine more complex systems such as power recharge. As you damage the hull, the value goes down. As the hull value decreases, the damage you can do to internal systems increases. You will always be able to do damage to internal structures, just at limited rates. Eventually you will reach a threshold. Something like 30 -40% of the hull remaining. Once it reaches that threshold people can do FULL damage to any system block on the ship.

Calbiri stated that the current system works fine because it works realistically. You break a hole into a ship and you can do damage to anything in that hole. That's great and of course that makes sense... but it also gives no value to hull. If people can break through the hull quickly and aim directly for the core then they could theoretically not touch 90% of a ship with their weapons and still kill someone, even in their big ships.

With the way I explained above, damage can still be done to internal systems if your shot hits them, but it also forces you to take out much more hull than people normally would in order to finish the player off. Lastly a certain number of systems should be destroyed in order to disable individual systems or the entire ship completely. (our engines should not work after we have destroyed 60% of them)

Player death should only occur if the core itself is hit. Killing the core means the entire ship would eventually explode and fast, possibly with no chance to salvage. The second option - Disabling systems means that the core ejects the player and the ship is useless until someone enters it again. This would come with a timer.

The Hull health and system health would be determined once a ship was saved at a shipyard. In order to save a ship they would need to be in range similar to shop mechanics and they would need to have been out of combat for a certain period of time; 5-10 minutes. This way players do not spam the catalog with new versions of their increasingly damaged ships, therefore setting their hull and systems amounts to 100%

This system overall adds value to destroying hull blocks without essentially creating another barrier to completely chew through (like shields) and gives more options/consequences for how the ship is disabled or destroyed.

 

[DaveC9000]

Go watch Star Trek 2. As soon as those shields are down the Enterprise and the Reliant are both Kobiashi Maru. I think this system just appears to be out of balance because so much of the other components of StarMade are currently out of balance. Right now you're probably getting shot at by a giant sector-sized doom cube with 500 missile tubes. Of course your hull is going to crumble like paper when you're getting hit by a whole fleet-load of missiles. I think that once the devs finish balancing the availability of resources (that's happening right now) and tweaking the weapons system people will have to start scaling down and this will become less of a problem.

 

[FunnyBunny14]

The hp system will most likely just make sure that a certain amount of blocks have to be destroyed before the ship overheats. Core drilling will then no longer be possible, which is the main goal of the hp system.

 

[Criss]

the weapons systems pretty much cannot be tweaked in terms of damage. The smallest rapid fire AMC needs each of those shots to do damage. Its already only at the lowest it can possibly be. The plan was to make resources and crafting add difficulty to creating these blocks. Then they would have value.

 

[Neon_42]

So essentially a secondary shield? No mater what you call it, something that has to be taken down to zero before you can damage block is a shield, and this has been suggested many times already.... we already have a shield we don't need a second one based on hull. It may make sense in games that have solid ships that take "hull damage" but not being able to destroy parts of the ship when shields fail kind of takes away from the fact that ships are actually built out of parts that can be destroyed.

The HP system will make it so you cannot simply destroy the ships core in order to kill a ship but you will still have to deal damage to it's parts.

I disagree that this is 'just shields'. Due to the nature of blocks being way underpowered when compared to weapons I think this makes sense. As it is it is way too easy to one shot a ship. So, when the armour is depleted then the ship acts as normal and blocks can be destroyed as usual, but shields will still recharge. The HP system as it is will not solve the issue of blocks not being able to resist damage. That is if block HP remains the same. I suppose the other way around this is to nerf weapons across the board. really just make gain per per block less than what it is.

 

[FunnyBunny14]

People just are used to too huge weapons. Try just using the crafting system an you'll realise that it is a lot easier said than done to make the weapons you are talking about.

 

[Sven_The_Slayer]

I disagree that this is 'just shields'. Due to the nature of blocks being way underpowered when compared to weapons I think this makes sense. As it is it is way too easy to one shot a ship. So, when the armour is depleted then the ship acts as normal and blocks can be destroyed as usual, but shields will still recharge. The HP system as it is will not solve the issue of blocks not being able to resist damage. That is if block HP remains the same. I suppose the other way around this is to nerf weapons across the board. really just make gain per per block less than what it is.

What do you call a "barrier" that stops damage from being dealt to a ships systems until it's depleted? Shield, Force field, structural integrity field. All just shields in the end.

 

[Neon_42]

What do you call a "barrier" that stops damage from being dealt to a ships systems until it's depleted? Shield, Force field, structural integrity field. All just shields in the end.

by that definition any sort of plating would also count as shields. the plating would be have to be destroyed before you get to the ship systems anyway. The difference is that having an extra bar is simpler to implement. Plus it encourages ship interiors and more cosmetically designed ships due to hull blocks actually contributing to the ship. After both bars are depleted, and the armour one does not get regenerated without a repair beam, then blocks would be removed as normal. This system would work pretty well in that it still allows for one to remove ship systems. It would also let people still build powerful weapons, but large ships wouldnt be killed in one shot. It seems like a win win to me.

This could be solved by a soft cap set at 400 damage/block for all weapons (see below for block hp stats). Then shields would have to be nerfed, but that is pretty easy to change.

People just are used to too huge weapons. Try just using the crafting system an you'll realise that it is a lot easier said than done to make the weapons you are talking about.

This is still unbalanced. I can just mine more minerals. A ship in a 400x400x400 block volume can still one shot pretty much anything. There is no difficulty in cutting through a ship when each missile/beam/cannon does more than 400 damage per shot. The reason being that the armour blocks have 200 hp and %50 damage reduction. I play the crafting system. It works well, but still does not defeat the nukes or super guns. Shields can be drained super quickly with ion and it is one missile to destroy the core.

 

[Sven_The_Slayer]

by that definition any sort of plating would also count as shields. the plating would be have to be destroyed before you get to the ship systems anyway. The difference is that having an extra bar is simpler to implement. Plus it encourages ship interiors and more cosmetically designed ships due to hull blocks actually contributing to the ship. After both bars are depleted, and the armour one does not get regenerated without a repair beam, then blocks would be removed as normal. This system would work pretty well in that it still allows for one to remove ship systems. It would also let people still build powerful weapons, but large ships

Well no because "any kind of plating" will actually be destroyed as it takes damage and not 100% stop bullets until the "shield" gets to zero like you are asking for, regardless of how you charge it, still just another shield mechanic. I'm not sure how the HP system will work but your solution does nothing to combat the issue at hand. First shields fail, than secondary shields fail, then ship get's one shot killed as you say. Why not just add shield capacity to armor blocks, it's essentially the same thing without the "only regens with repair beam".

 

[Neon_42]

Well no because "any kind of plating" will actually be destroyed as it takes damage and not 100% stop bullets until the "shield" gets to zero like you are asking for, regardless of how you charge it, still just another shield mechanic. I'm not sure how the HP system will work but your solution does nothing to combat the issue at hand. First shields fail, than secondary shields fail, then ship get's one shot killed as you say. Why not just add shield capacity to armor blocks, it's essentially the same thing without the "only regens with repair beam".

I disagree. This may behave like a rechargeable shield mechanic, but it would mean that hull blocks contribute something to the design of the ship. As I said before it is really quite easy to do permanent damage to a ship once shields are down. In the manner I have suggested there is a buffer between shield damage and permanent damage to blocks. It would be rechargeable only if hit with a repair beam. This would add another dimension to combat as it would add extra hp against super weapons. Plus it would give us a reason to manufacture more advanced hulls. Furthermore it could make more aesthetically designed ships combat effective because they would have more HP. Once the armour is pierced players are now free to damage subsystems. It makes sense, and is simpler than trying to balance individual blocks vs weapon damage.

 

[TheOmega]

How about this, have you considered the armor percentage stat? It basically negates a percent of damage from the shot fired. Basic armor is just another block to break through; it has no armor percent. Standard has 25%, which means a 100 DMG shot only does 75 DMG. Advanced has 50%. I think they should make crystal have 75-90% armor, to make it better than advanced. The HP of blocks needs to be reworked ASAP, because that is one thing that ruins hulls for most people. I remember back in the old days modding one block to have 100% armor to be invincible.

 

[NeonSturm]

Hull thickness (example : 10% | 5% bot + 5% top) scales linearly with 1 axis.
* Surface scales quadratic over other 2 axis.

Weapon strength scales cubic with 3 axis.

It is like:
* 5x5x5 cubes fighting each other has a projectile /explosion/ radius of 1/5 ship size.
* 25x25x25 cubes fighting each other has a projectile /explosion/ radius of 1/25 ship size.

Bigger ships vs bigger ships is the same as smaller ships vs smaller ships,
* just that smaller ships you are forced to damage bigger sections
* and you get buffs like 50'000 base energy capacity

What is imba is big (one) vs small (one or many).

To balance weapons, balance evasion and projectile impact radius cube.[DOUBLEPOST=1414471704,1414471568][/DOUBLEPOST]Edit 1:
How much impact should a player have? Currently it gives you 50'000 energy storage and better thrusters for individual ships while the AI plays like a 1-year old to make players valuable.

 

[SapioiT]

Simply said, anything which is not a system block should have 4-5 times more HP, huh?