ship system progress through tiers

[SchnellBier]

Hi everybody. I´ve been lurking this forum for a while now and I finally got an idea worth posting. I´m sorry if it was already discussed before. Can´t read everything.

First i want to tell you why i think this is a good idea. As the title suggest it´s about the ship systems but it can also affect the crafting system and maybe the balance of small and big ships. You heard right. There is maybe a good solution in balancing.

There are some things I thought about what leads me to my idea:
-> The current crafting system is complicated.
-> The devs want it somehow complicated because of factorys and scifi.
-> The devs want to achive a feeling of progress through the crafting system.

If i would be responsible for StarMade I would want the same things. The problem I see in the current crafting system is that everyone wants to craft the same blocks. There isn´t really a feel of progress if everyone wants always the same. The only progress consists of how much can you produce.

Now how to get the complicated progress crafting that everyone wants. My answer is system block tiers.

I will use shield blocks as example.

If you start the game it´s really hard to build a ship cappable of fighting pirates. The current crafting of shield blocks is complicated and nearly impossible at early game. Here´s a solution:

T1 Shield Block:
-> simple to craft
-> little bit weak (lower capacity)
-> better than no shield
-> good shield regeneration

It´s fits perfect an small ships in early game. Some might say, "That good shield regeneration is op on big ships they only use T1 blocks!" or "Good idea but what if nobody is in early game? Then the block is useless!" But there´s also a solution:

-> limited number of t1 shield blocks per ship
-> set a minimum for t2 shields to work

I know limiting the number of blocks is a bad thing but in that case I think it´s the right thing to do. T1 shields will be used in smaller ships maybe heavy fighters. The high regereration makes them capable of taking a hit once in a while so they can fight bigger ships not equally but have at least a advantage in that point.

Keep in mind that smaller turrets will have to use the same sort of shields.

So what about bigger ships? They have more room and can therefor have more powerful ship systems. It´s like having finally some space for a bigger engine. That´s where the minimum number of t2 shield blocks comes into play. Here we go:


T2 Shield Block:
-> more complicated to craft then t1 (maybe need t1 shield blocks to craft and some rare material)
-> higher capacity than t1 (15% maybe? or even higher?)
-> makes the ships much more durable than t1
-> normal shield regeneration
-> set a minimum for t2 shields to work (as seen above)

Bigger ships get bigger shields which are more complicated to craft. This keeps the feeling of progress alive. The regeneration is way lower than t1 shields so that even if the capacity is higher it is possible to kill them. Maybe not by one fighter alone but every hit taken hurts more in the long run. The minimum number ensures that they aren´t used an smaller crafts to get them an insane shielding.

"But what if i want to be the very best, like no one ever was? Building ships is my real test, creating big ones is my cause!"

Same solution as above:
-> limited number of t2 shield blocks per ship
-> set a minimum for t3 shields to work

T3 Shield Block:
-> more complicated to craft then t2 (maybe need t2 shield blocks to craft and some very rare material)
-> higher capacity than t2 (maybe same step as from t1 to t2?)
-> makes the ships much more durable than t2
-> weak shield regeneration
-> set a minimum for t3 shields to work (as seen above)

If you want a Star Destroyer this is your shield. Very high capacity. Very durable in fights. You are propably the last one standing in an direct fight. But the high capacity of this t3 shield has it´s cost. Your regeneration is bad. Really bad. If your shield is down it stays down for a long time.


Remember this is just an example how it could work.

I don´t want to sell this as a final and perfect solution just as an idea how to improve several issues at once.

Here the list of benefits I see:
-> easier and more intuitive crafting (easy crafting t1, complicated crafting t3)
-> easier start into the game
-> feeling of progression to reach higher tiers of systems and bigger ships
-> possibility to get more balance between ships of different sizes
-> more crafting products/more possibilitys to trade/manufacture
-> makes small ships easier to get
-> make big ships harder to get not only because of pure block numbers

The negative things:
-> building restirctions of ship systems (maybe they aren´t necessary but atm I can´t see a way around it)

Sorry for the big wall of text but if I´m bored and got an idea I usually try to get them out somewhere.

What do you guys think about it?

 

[Aecetym]

Well you got one of those typical small vs big threads, that's for sure, and because of that it has the typical issues with it. I'm going to keep it short.

• The small vs big balance argument

I'm just going to use some extremes to make my point. Let's say we got a 600 m long battleship vs a 25 m long fighter. By logic alone the fighter should have a lifespan of a few seconds if it would choose fighting over running. The whole a single fighter blowing up the the death star, something the size of a moon vs something you can't even see if you would try to get both of the on the same picture, is a load of bull to say the least. A bunch of fighters defeating a battleship, strength in numbers sure why not, but that is already ingame atm.

• Limitations ≠ balance

I know it is just an example, but it's most likely the most obvious one to be used if a system like this would be implemented. Even with a lower regen, the amount of shields already charged should be more then enough to keep the battleship going against the annoying presence of the fighter. By the time it would do damage it should be long, long dead and forgotten.

• He who holds the bigger stick ...

For every weapon block the fighter has, the battleship has a 100 if not 1000 more in turrets alone. What leads to the same conclusion the 2 points above had. If you give a fighter more powerfull weapons (shield ignoring missiles?), so should the battleship be give a way to defend itself against that for 'balance' sake. Then again the fighter needs a new weapon to counter that inbalance, but the battleship would need ...

And if that isn't enough even with the higher regen you could still 1 shot it most likely or have it suffer the flak spam, same result in the end.

• (goes on for a while)

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of more variety of system block so player can customize their ships to their playstyle. But it won't really help the 'balance' of small vs big ships.

 

[jstenholt]

I'm seeing a large amount of holes in this concept. Firstly, it adds a fuckton of unnecessary blocks into the game, adding to the already ridiculous amount that there are. Secondly, if you're going to play straight up SMP (As those who care about crafting will have to do), you'll end up having to completely remake ships when you craft higher block tiers. Thirdly, but certainly not lastly, you have completely overlooked the way shields work, recharge and capacity are now locked to two different blocks.

I'm not trying to dissuade anybody from posting their ideas, but this one just wouldn't fly, in my opinion.

 

[SchnellBier]

I repeat for those who can´t read:

Remember this is just an example how it could work.

I don´t want to sell this as a final and perfect solution just as an idea how to improve several issues at once.


I don´t want to balance something that isn´t necessary. But it´s a possibility to do so. I don´t want that small ships win against big ones. The balance isn´t the main thing in this concept. It´s more about creating tiers of ship systems to create the feeling of progression in the crafting system and ship building.

As it is now it ends with everyone have factorys doing exactly the same steps for the same blocks. You build it once and keep it untill you´ve build one or more titans. No variation, no trade. It ends with everyone having a lager harvester dropping the harvested blocks into the factory. It´s too hard for starting the game and too easy in endgame. Also there´s a large number of crafting items that do literally nothing besides crafting. I think upgrading blocks through the crafting system would give it a better feeling.


I know they have changed the shield mechanics. As I mentioned it was just a example with a easy to understand block type. I don´t see how this would add much unnecessary blocks. Like in my example every size of ship would have own tier of favorite blocks. Also you don´t have to remake your ship as long as you don´t want to change your fighter into a destroyer because a fighter can´t use a t2 block. There was also a thread about unused bits in the 3 byte block data. The space could be used to store the block tier.


I played StarMade for quite a while and care about it. I just want to suggest a possible improvement to the concept of crafting instead of just saying that the current crafting is shit.

I don´t want to do it but i have to. Take Minecraft for example. The little progression from wooden tools to iron tools and then to diamond tools feels great. I know it´s a totally different game but I think in that point it can be compared. Why not doing something like this in StarMade?

 

[Zeno9141]

Take Minecraft for example. The little progression from wooden tools to iron tools and then to diamond tools feels great. I know it´s a totally different game but I think in that point it can be compared.

That is ABSOLUTELY not true, no. We are not talking about player tools, we are talking about infinitely customizable ships, which are something TOTALLY different from a preset recipe which will always be the same no matter what. If you were to compare tools from Minecraft with player weapons in Starmade, it would make SOME sense. But all tiers do is create physical and mental barriers, unnecessary blockades for anyone.

 

[jstenholt]

...all tiers do is create physical and mental barriers, unnecessary blockades for anyone.

Very well put, my friend.

 

[SchnellBier]

I know... and as a say above I really don´t want to set a barrier. But instead of just saying it is wrong just think about it.

It´s like you have a stick in the beginning and instantly have to craft diamond swords. It´s not like you have a choice right here. You have to craft the most complex hard to get block since the start. And making it easier to craft the only ship systems available isn´t a good answer too.

I don´t really see a possible way of making a good crafting system without tiers. If there is an other way and i´m wrong I would be very happy too.

I just want this idea to be remembered if the crafting system fails over and over again.

 

[aceface]

Nice suggestion! Would really add an advantage to rich kids on servers. They would have their "T10 battleship" etc..

 

[Megacrafter127]

I don´t really see a possible way of making a good crafting system without tiers. If there is an other way and i´m wrong I would be very happy too.

The problem is the following: in all current games, which have a crafting system, which is seen as good, the use of those crafted items is limited. In MC e.g., the use of everything(except basic redstone) is limited, if one ignores decorative uses. Redstone doesn't have any tiers.

If something has tiers, it is obvious, that what tier 1 can do, tier 2 can do too. As such, tier 1 stuff will end up being ignored, unless tier 2 is ridiculously expensive(which can easily end up upsetting the crafting system), or not craftable(which also upsets crafting).

 

[SchnellBier]

@Megacrafter127
You are right here but thats exactly the reason why I set the unloved barrier.

Small ships use T1
Medium ships use T2
...
Every fighter, drone, shuttle and small turret would have to be equiped with T1 by default. This is also the reason why I tried to make the T1 somehow attractive to small ships.

Also by using tier 1 blocks to craft tier 2 blocks the crafting would be somewhat harder than t1 but keeps a intuitive feeling to it.

 

[aceface]

The problem is the following: in all current games, which have a crafting system, which is seen as good, the use of those crafted items is limited. In MC e.g., the use of everything(except basic redstone) is limited, if one ignores decorative uses. Redstone doesn't have any tiers.

If something has tiers, it is obvious, that what tier 1 can do, tier 2 can do too. As such, tier 1 stuff will end up being ignored, unless tier 2 is ridiculously expensive(which can easily end up upsetting the crafting system), or not craftable(which also upsets crafting).

Say higher tiered shields require higher tiered power generators, and also they will cost more.

 

[Megacrafter127]

Small ships use T1
Medium ships use T2
...
Every fighter, drone, shuttle and small turret would have to be equiped with T1 by default. This is also the reason why I tried to make the T1 somehow attractive to small ships.

The only way of doing so would be making them MORE efficient(ignoring the crafting cost), than T2, but their efficiency drops faster, than T2's.
However, getting the curves right is the very problem here, since the points of least efficiency are those, where T1 and T2 have the same efficiency/the smallest difference in efficiency.

Also by using tier 1 blocks to craft tier 2 blocks the crafting would be somewhat harder than t1 but keeps a intuitive feeling to it.

Instead of using T1 people would outright loop the T1 back into their factory to make T2.

Say higher tiered shields require higher tiered power generators, and also they will cost more.

People don't care about costs, unless they are ridiculously high/low.

 

[Mariux]

This overcomplicates things...

 

[NeonSturm]

Have to say a word now, before this nonsense continues :/


2 Tiers are good (high cost difference, low efficiency diff).
One could be spammy and made from every resource type (thus you can spend abundant ones) and use it for drones or not-so-important outposts.

3 Tiers are only good if there is something that prevents you from using it exclusively.​

But you can make a 10-Tier system where Tier 0 requires 10 common, (Tier 3 7 common and 3 rare) and Tier 10 requires 10 rare.

Refining natural products gives 8 common (unnamed) and 3 rare (named).

Using the correct type of rare can give a discount at high number production cycles but cost more abundant.​

Then you can put hull into Tech 0, hardened into tech 2, Reactors into tech 8, Heat-recycler Tech 5, ...

Techs would just be the balance of common vs rare resources then. Thus common would give you free low-tech stuff you will here or there use.

But there would be no reactor tech <8 or >8. Just other blocks in different techs​

 

[SchnellBier]

@NeonSturm

Finally someone who understands the main idea.

It´s not about setting rules or about setting 3 fixed tier levels. It´s more about making crafting in the beginning easier and getting some progress into it by having better ship system with more costs and more complicated to craft.

And if it would be just 2 different tiers of ship systems it would make a significant change of how the crafting feels. If you put yourself into a situation in which you don´t have admin commands and no shops it´s really a task to build your first ship capable of fighting anything. It´s a pain. But it will change if you get over the critical point and then it gets really repetetive because it is always the same step over and over again. It would be just good to have something to strive for in the game. You have to get away from the perspective of a sandbox space ship editor and more into the position of a space game which StarMade will be in the end.

This idea isn´t written in stone or limited by the things I wrote above. Just a point to think about.

 

[NeonSturm]

Finally someone who understands the main idea.

Maybe you should have formatted it better.

To make it easer to see things other than just T1 T2 T3

 

[SchnellBier]

Maybe you should have formatted it better.

Yeah, it was late and i had to get this idea out of my mind to get sleep. One of the problems of a creative mind.