Weapons 2.0 - :(

[GnomeKing]

Weapons 2.0 - :/

Clearly some hard work has gone into the new damage and hit/scan models, and I can imagine that some of this fits well with AI and NPC behaviors and actions. (or does it ...?)

There are other good things in there also …

BUT overall, the new weapons system/targeting massively degrade First Person action and make the game feel much much less dynamic:

-beams are far too ‘sticky’ and predicable

-missiles are too limited in variety

-ranges across the board make no sense + lack any depth/complexity

-loss of ‘pulse-type’ secondary feels like loss of a finger for no good reasons

-Shotgun (Can-Mis) – sigh, what exactly is the point in that then?

-And Cannons … OMG … these really, really REALLY Suck

Recoil is awful. Just awful. And Dumb. Dumb and Awful. Both of those.

Recoil makes no sense whatsoever. Cannons have gimbals, inertia counter-measures, ect. Broadsides from ships do not flip them sideways in the water. Tanks don’t go sliding backwards down the road. Helicopter gunships don’t start spinning when they fire guns and missiles.

and How will this play with many cannon turrets firing, and in a server? Feels like lag fest to me …:/

Beyond the basic quirky/fun concept, the implementation with ‘random Player shot-variance’ is just Awful. And Dumb. Dumb and Awful. Both of those.

For example; Not being able to target blocks a few hundred meters away CONSISTENTLY with a “sniper/artillery gun” is Laughably Crap. Sorry, but there it is.

The damage models themselves are all kinds of daft and illogical between weapons But worse is how boring and repetitive the damage to blocks is. Now nearly everything makes little ‘splat-holes’. Deep, piercing needle-like damage is rare/non-existent. No more razor-like slashes and cuts. No longer can a ship be turned into a sieve with shrapnel...

Just $~*@:”# Splat-Holes !!!


Summary: looks like useful work for NPC and AI targeting and some damage calculation models. BUT (sadly) Absolutely SUCKS as a PLAYER EXPERIENCE, and therefore (for me) currently a HUGE FAIL




edit : I also agree with many comments made below related to 'design-dumb-down' and loss of options >
not just PVP/E, but also PvAsteroid is also boring> with dumbing down of mining (why?) being a good example of what has happened to weapons....

there are also many other various issues I cant even be bothered to note down here >

DEVS ; please re-focus on some old core game issues > and it would be really, really useful to have some insight into how power/weapons 2.0 will/are HELPING with the longstanding AI/Fleet/Sector ect problems
[reviewing grumpy opinions]
(edit

 

[Mork2]

I thought recoil was affected by ship mass. More mass less recoil. If your just testing and don't have a full ship yes recoil is insane. Or maybe its just the capital turrets, I'm not having recoil issues with those, since the power use is not a significant fraction of the power reactor.

The reason for the splat holes was because if you wanted to remove large volumes of blocks you had to use missiles. Now you don't have to use missiles, cannons are a lot more useful for that, assuming you have the recoil under control.

The sniper cannons or plain cannons can be powerful enough to punch all the way through.

But I really do wish that the cannon/missile shotgun was in. I still really want a flak type weapon. The missile/cannon at 100% slave has 10 shot heat seeker salvoes but due to the missile limits you get 3 and unless they fixed the bug, you kill the game.

Its still dev build, they still have to remove bugs and balance thing so its possible for the recoil to be reduced.

 

[Winterhome]

Recoil makes no sense whatsoever. Cannons have gimbals, inertia counter-measures, ect. Broadsides from ships do not flip them sideways in the water. Tanks don’t go sliding backwards down the road. Helicopter gunships don’t start spinning when they fire guns and missiles.

That's probably because most ships, tanks, and helicopters don't have guns that take up 30% of the entire vehicle, and because they have things supporting them like, y'know, dirt, water, or air.

If you want a ship with "realistic" recoil, give yourself one cannon block per every two hundred blocks or some shit.

 

[TungstenWall]

Has anyone attempted to make a recoilless/reduced recoil design? Like adding a gun to fire backwards at the same time?

 

[Nosajimiki]

I believe recoil has been changed to aiming recoil, not momentum recoil; so, I don't think that would help.

 

[Raisinbat]

I believe recoil has been changed to aiming recoil, not momentum recoil; so, I don't think that would help.

I haven't touched the weapons update but my god does it sound magical. Long range beams are OP so let's nerf cannons and shields, that'll show them

Fun little question; if you put 10 alpha weapons on your ship all at the bottom of the charge list and all fully consuming the ships power to charge, do they charge one at a time at reduced speed the further down you go letting an alpha ship push 10x more weapons modules than a dps ship can and if so why is noone complaining about that

 

[Nosajimiki]

I haven't touched the weapons update but my god does it sound magical. Long range beams are OP so let's nerf cannons and shields, that'll show them

Fun little question; if you put 10 alpha weapons on your ship all at the bottom of the charge list and all fully consuming the ships power to charge, do they charge one at a time at reduced speed the further down you go letting an alpha ship push 10x more weapons modules than a dps ship can and if so why is noone complaining about that

If I recall, all weapons of the same type are grouped together as a single priority; so, they all try to charge together. You can in theory make a 1-shot "bomber" like you are talking about where a weapon uses most of your ship's regen to maintain and takes extra long to recharge; however, last time I tested it with multiple weapon groups, there was a bug where they would basically shuffle between charging and depleting such that they were never able to fully charge, but that test was pre weapons 3.0

 

[Pacific_Jim]

Momentum recoil makes much more sense (not that either are remotely necessary). Aiming recall is especially a bad idea, engagements in Starmade can happen over some pretty long distances, and keeping to that reduces the chance of big ships colliding into each other.

 

[Nosajimiki]

Momentum recoil makes much more sense (not that either are remotely necessary). Aiming recall is especially a bad idea, engagements in Starmade can happen over some pretty long distances, and keeping to that reduces the chance of big ships colliding into each other.

I completely agree. Combat typically happens at ranges of 4-13 km. Based on the tests I've run so far, even a moderately weak cannon-cannon used as a main gun can't stay on target enough to be effective against a cruiser sized target past ranges of ~1-2km. Even a little bit of recoil makes hitting ships at actual combat ranges nearly impossible. This renders cannons just as useless as they were under weapon 2.0 mechanics when they had too low of a muzzle velocity to hit things.

 

[Aesthetics]

Weapons 2.0 -

Clearly some hard work has gone into the new damage and hit/scan models, and I can imagine that some of this fits well with AI and NPC behaviors and actions.

There are other good things in there also …

BUT overall, the new weapons system/targeting massively degrade First Person action and make the game feel much much less dynamic:

-beams are far too ‘sticky’ and predicable

-missiles are too limited in variety

-ranges across the board make no sense + lack any depth/complexity

-loss of ‘pulse-type’ secondary feels like loss of a finger for no good reasons

-Shotgun (Can-Mis) – sigh, what exactly is the point in that then?

-And Cannons … OMG … these really, really REALLY Suck

Recoil is awful. Just awful. And Dumb. Dumb and Awful. Both of those.

Recoil makes no sense whatsoever. Cannons have gimbals, inertia counter-measures, ect. Broadsides from ships do not flip them sideways in the water. Tanks don’t go sliding backwards down the road. Helicopter gunships don’t start spinning when they fire guns and missiles.

and How will this play with many cannon turrets firing, and in a server? Feels like lag fest to me …:/

Beyond the basic quirky/fun concept, the implementation with ‘random Player shot-variance’ is just Awful. And Dumb. Dumb and Awful. Both of those.

For example; Not being able to target blocks a few hundred meters away CONSISTENTLY with a “sniper/artillery gun” is Laughably Crap. Sorry, but there it is.

The damage models themselves are all kinds of daft and illogical between weapons But worse is how boring and repetitive the damage to blocks is. Now nearly everything makes little ‘splat-holes’. Deep, piercing needle-like damage is rare/non-existent. No more razor-like slashes and cuts. No longer can a ship be turned into a sieve with shrapnel...

Just $~*@:”# Splat-Holes !!!


Summary: looks like useful work for NPC and AI targeting and some damage calculation models. BUT (sadly) Absolutely SUCKS as a PLAYER EXPERIENCE, and therefore (for me) currently a HUGE FAIL

[reviewing grumpy opinions]

What the hell is with that text formatting? Must you type in black?

 

[NaStral]

I could honestly do without any kind of recoil but the aiming disruption is terrible. It adversely effects primarily users of smaller ships which seems to be counter to the aims of the dev team in favoring smaller ships. The 40+k turret boats I've been testing in dev build haven't suffered much from recoil. Main body mounted weapons are so Ill favored as it is by many players it seems utterly counterproductive.

Schine, don't punish people for manually using main body mounted weapons. They need REASONS TO used them rather than the opposite.

 

[MacThule]

Yeah, I am not enjoying the feel of recoil in testing, but I have yet to do any fighting against other humans with recoil, so I don't have the whole picture yet because it affects both parties.

 

[NaStral]

I forsee both parties not being able to hit each other at all. It’s difficult for two moving ships to hit each other with Cc at half a sector even without this recoil.

 

[MacThule]

I forsee both parties not being able to hit each other at all. It’s difficult for two moving ships to hit each other with Cc at half a sector even without this recoil.

That is definitely what it seems like. I am trying to look for method in the madness - there are a few advantages to reduced accuracy (and a touch of realism - not because real weapons aren't accurate, but real gunners aren't perfect and it is much easier to aim in a digital simulation than IRL). But there are glaring, serious drawbacks as well.

The possible advantages end up looking more like "silver linings" than actual advantages. It would make battles more a matter of overall odds and less likely to be lost or won by a single tactic or error.

I'm not opposed to a heavy turret meta, so long as the pressure causing it isn't a lag dynamic that overwhelmingly favors people with absolute loads of time over any measure of strategy or skill.

But this can only be an advantage to gameplay if short-range weapons are balanced to outperform long-range weapons. And this may be the direction: consider the new bomb weapon. Insane power that can overcome a much larger foe, but requires one to manually execute a very daring pass. Overpowered short range, manual option. So there is evidence. The result of such a mechanic should be long-range weapons mostly relegated to turret roles. Standoff weapons which might wear down an equivalent foe at range, but will take forever to kill it, and on the other side a few close range options that offer the opportunity of a quick victory or turning the odds against a stronger ship but demand a big risk of closing with the target past its own standoff radius and taking intense direct fire from the player... if it can out maneuver you.

And making it harder to instagib players from very long range isn't a terrible move. You could soak someone with turret spray at range, but could only quickly vaporize them if you really commit and get close enough that accuracy becomes better. The notion is sweet, but sector transitions aren't going to let such a thing work as far as I can tell.

I don't know - I the risk of further exaggerating the turret meta probably overrules any possible advantages, but I know others have and will continue to do a good job of calling out the pitfalls of it, plus I don't have the whole picture, so I don't want to miss the forest for the trees. I need to make time this weekend to do some more in-depth testing.

 

[NaStral]

I can see that, though so far turrets don’t seem to be effected as much as they should be to support that style of play. Some kind of AI accuracy debuff when a larger vessel’s turrets engage a smaller vessel would serve such a purpose better.

For very large main body weapons I could see the recoil and shake be useful in discouraging use against very small, fast moving craft. For the small craft themselves though, there should be some kind of minimum block count you’d have to reach before it kicks in.

 

[MacThule]

I can see that, though so far turrets don’t seem to be effected as much as they should be to support that style of play. Some kind of AI accuracy debuff when a larger vessel’s turrets engage a smaller vessel would serve such a purpose better.

For very large main body weapons I could see the recoil and shake be useful in discouraging use against very small, fast moving craft. For the small craft themselves though, there should be some kind of minimum block count you’d have to reach before it kicks in.

That is an really good approach. Maybe soften the recoil curve a ton at the very bottom?

That could totally work.

It could also work to offer a server-option way to somewhat de-buff the AI's accuracy against high speed targets. This would not debuff manual fighter pilots and would actually give them slightly better odds of getting close through defensive fire if they move fast enough. It would also prevent big ships from exploiting huge arrays of small weapons below the threshhold. Not sure if/how this might affect missile PD though.

 

[Nosajimiki]

No, recoil is all wrong for this game.

Even firing a cannon-cannon weapon from a ship using ~10% of the reactor capacity (so not big for the ship's size at all). I was still having shots missing a stationary 400m x 50m x 150m cruiser at ranges of less than 500m. Even at what is typically "short-ranges" in real starmade fights (3-5 km), I was missing with at least 90% of my shots against this stationary cruiser.

The thing is that at real combat ranges, the angle to target in starmade is often far less than you would see for anything other than a sniper in any normal FPS so, any perceptible amount of spread will completely miss a 50m wide ship at more common ranges of 5-15km where pixel perfect accuracy of a well trained hand can barely keep up with AI targeting.

 

[Crashmaster]

Recoil is one of those things in starmade that makes it seem like the in-universe technology is just terrible or dr. Plex was incompetent.

 

[Nosajimiki]

We are space Orks, the recoil makes it BIGGA!

 

[Scypio]