My Thoughts on the New SM

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    I have been waiting for this update for some time to begin work on one of my current projects. For the most part I have found it to my liking. There are some things I have had to get use to, Chambers, Stabilizers are the big things. I found the new Shield set up interesting, it is different but to my liking.

    I can see why the majority of the community see this update as toxic. I have to completely gut and rebuild every one of my prior builds. Turrets have changed. Shields have changed. As the weapon update is not out I cannot really finish or redo any build I have until that is done.

    With that said. I for one do not see this as the end or death of SM, I see it as a new starting point, just as before there was a learning curve, and that learning has changed not to something more difficult, but to something different and some what easier. Does it suck to have to take every build you have ever made and start over? yes. Is there room to improve? yes. It is the end? only time will tell, but so far it seems that there are improvements on the way soon.
     
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    Code:
    Last 30 Days     75.1     -0.1     -0.08%     162
    January 2018     75.1     +7.6     +11.22%     162
    December 2017     67.5     +9.7     +16.79%     120
    November 2017     57.8     -2.3     -3.89%     117
    October 2017     60.2     +3.2     +5.62%     114
    September 2017     57.0     -8.0     -12.32%     112
    source
    From average 116 up to 162 means a raise of 40 percent players compared to the last 4 months.
     
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    The devs want this game to turn out well, too. A lot of people like to hate on the things that break their builds and aren't conducive at the moment, but the devs often know what they are doing. I'm sure it was difficult to figure out a decent fix for the unidirectional advantage stabilizers gave, and I don't doubt that this system we have now is what they intended to create from the start. Personally, the stabilizer bonus system is very unique, probably unlike anything most of us have seen, and there has been a lot of thought put into it in order to make sure it didn't nerf people's designs or encourage any exploits.

    Props to the devs. I look forward to seeing what else is in store for the future.
     
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    Crimson-Artist

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    I would've been more accepting of the update had schine actually been more open about it. If they had stood their ground and actually argued for it then I wouldn't that much of a problem with it (I'm primarily a creative mode builder so I don't really sweat over the technical details of things).

    However the fact the Schine not only seems to have stopped posting official news on updates, now use a much heavier hand when it comes forum moderation (After SMD came back online I posted a joke that SMD is now a gulag and roughly half and hour later it was deleted by duke, effectively proving my point), and the rather extreme lack of communication between them and their players makes it seems as though they now take a "My way or the highway" approach to game development. Not a good look for tiny game with a tiny player base.

    The recent update (that they didn't post news about here) did fix some of the problems I had with the new reactor system so it looks like they are trying to fix their mistakes. However Schine's recent actions make it extremely hard for me to trust them again. Unless they post an apology/explanation for they're actions I've stopped being one of their supporters.
     
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    After SMD came back online I posted a joke that SMD is now a gulag and roughly half and hour later it was deleted by duke, effectively proving my point
    Actually, I know what you're talking about here because I had one of my posts deleted, too in that thread. Duke had nothing against you in particular. If you look at the reason, it says it was because we all went off-topic. We started talking about moderation in the general SM discussion section, which technically belongs in the Forum Support/Moderation Discussion section. I did feel a bit confused when I had my comment deleted, but I honestly figured it out and realized there was really no harm done. If you look at your profile page you will also see that none of us were given points for that, either. The lack of communication is definitely a bit bothersome, but it can probably be improved upon with better elaboration in the notification of deletion.
     

    Valiant70

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    With that said. I for one do not see this as the end or death of SM, I see it as a new starting point, just as before there was a learning curve, and that learning has changed not to something more difficult, but to something different and some what easier.
    People were mainly screaming about stabilizers. The darn things ruined the effectiveness of most shapes of ships before the update yesterday. Now that that issue is fixed, it's a bit better. The next thing that needs to be fixed is the integrity mechanic. As it is now, it encourages players to build all systems in large cubes for maximum durability. You can't really build a good RP ship around that.

    It definitely needs a lot of work and tweaking, but as you said it's a starting point. That's what I've been saying all along. The whole update was a good idea, but it's been held back by a few nasty quirks. Two of them were fixed before the stable release. One more was just fixed yesterday, and I guess we'll be waiting a while for a fix to integrity.

    Does it suck to have to take every build you have ever made and start over? yes. Is there room to improve? yes. It is the end? only time will tell, but so far it seems that there are improvements on the way soon.
    Worth it. Many players have been saying it's worth it since the power update was proposed. The old system was wonky.
     

    Crimson-Artist

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    Actually, I know what you're talking about here because I had one of my posts deleted, too in that thread. Duke had nothing against you in particular. If you look at the reason, it says it was because we all went off-topic. We started talking about moderation in the general SM discussion section, which technically belongs in the Forum Support/Moderation Discussion section. I did feel a bit confused when I had my comment deleted, but I honestly figured it out and realized there was really no harm done. If you look at your profile page you will also see that none of us were given points for that, either. The lack of communication is definitely a bit bothersome, but it can probably be improved upon with better elaboration in the notification of deletion.
    If that were the case then he should've deleted the all the other posts after it since now everyone's talking about what he did, essentially derailing the thread even further. If he wants that thread to have memes only oh boy have I got memes now.

    He picked the most ironic way to start the new forum moderation.
     
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    If that were the case then he should've deleted the all the other posts after it since now everyone's talking about what he did, essentially derailing the thread even further. If he wants that thread to have memes only oh boy have I got memes now.

    He picked the most ironic way to start the new forum moderation.
    Just reread the dev posts and realized something. Duke may have actually been overstepping some boundaries with the deletion.

    "Additionally, we no longer delete most rule violating content (Tier II and below). Instead, a notice is displayed on the content stating the rule it breaks (or broke). Because of this, warnings are also needed for old content to display this notice."

    I'll talk to someone about it to make sure that no moderation guidelines were broken, because it's best to figure things these out early instead of dealing with the consequences later on.

    For now, try not to make a big deal out of it yet. If DukeOfRealms was in the wrong here, he will apologize and that will be that. If he wasn't then we will get an explanation why.
     
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    I have to completely gut and rebuild every one of my prior builds.
    Not even one of my complaints. My problem is the system allowing super high alpha (takes 72k e/s to power a missile/pulse which can deal 45 mil damage, if you use something like beam/pulse which is more likely to hit its more like 25 mil, which is still pretty stupid overkill). Also removes about 90% of the complexity and engineering of building a conventional ship in favor of making us spend time in a menu pressing buttons for our buffs. Not to mention easily achievable invincibility, both accidental and intentional, both literal and practical.
    I for one do not see this as the end or death of SM
    Definitely brings us closer to an end. SM had a pretty big audience that was waiting for this update to come back and play.
    Jins statement actually kind of helps:
    From average 116 up to 162 means a raise of 40 percent players compared to the last 4 months.
    Because people who spend time on servers see that only a very small portion of people who come back for power 2.0 stay very long, they get fed up and leave for good. So that big audience that Schine had that was waiting for them to fix their game are coming back just to see a new pile of shit and leaving.
    Servers like LvD, where the most veteran part of the community lives, have been suffering. It was a few days that i last looked at the stats, but when last I checked (sometime last week) both Freaks and Brie had a big jump on power 2.0 release day and a relatively consistent drop after that (feel free to check and correct me if I'm wrong).
    So SM is definitely going downhill.
     
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    I don't doubt that this system we have now is what they intended to create from the start.
    You should doubt this. We had to beg and plead for months for changes to make stick ships less advantageous. For a while, the devs refused to even acknowledge it was a problem. If schema had intended to implement this from the beginning, he would have done so. Similarly, the power stream was the result of the community making the developers aware of island ships, not of any initiative on Schine's part.

    ... there has been a lot of thought put into it in order to make sure it didn't nerf people's designs or encourage any exploits.
    Well that's odd, considering it does exactly that.
     
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    You should doubt this. We had to beg and plead for months for changes to make stick ships less advantageous. For a while, the devs refused to even acknowledge it was a problem. If schema had intended to implement this from the beginning, he would have done so. Similarly, the power stream was the result of the community making the developers aware of island ships, not of any initiative on Schine's part.
    I have to call you on that one. In a discussion with Lancake, he actually stated that he wanted to do the bonus from the very beginning, and was only waiting on the bonus because he couldn't figure out how to construct it. It wasn't until last week that he finally managed to develop the current idea and make it what it is now with the help of me and a few other players. The reason he and the other devs weren't responding with "hey, we're going to fix this" was that they didn't know how they were going to fix it yet at the time, only that they wanted to fix it. And yes, the streams were included to discourage islands, but I also know that these, too, were planned. The devs needed to wait for stabilizers to be well in place before they could add the streams, otherwise there would be breaks and bugs a-plenty. The community assumed these were not originally intended to be added because they were not officially announced, but you don't need to announce something to know you want to add it to the game.
     
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    I have to call you on that one. In a discussion with Lancake, he actually stated that he wanted to do the bonus from the very beginning, and was only waiting on the bonus because he couldn't figure out how to construct it. It wasn't until last week that he finally managed to develop the current idea and make it what it is now with the help of me and a few other players. The reason he and the other devs weren't responding with "hey, we're going to fix this" was that they didn't know how they were going to fix it yet at the time, only that they wanted to fix it. And yes, the streams were included to discourage islands, but I also know that these, too, were planned. The devs needed to wait for stabilizers to be well in place before they could add the streams, otherwise there would be breaks and bugs a-plenty. The community assumed these were not originally intended to be added because they were not officially announced, but you don't need to announce something to know you want to add it to the game.
    No offense to you, but I do not believe him. The reason most of the devs did not respond seems to be because they were unaware of schema's intentions or had been told to not reveal anything. If they actually had something planned, the reasonable thing would be to say "We are aware of this problem and intend to fix it, but we don't know how yet. Any suggestions are welcome." Again, for the longest time, they refused to even acknowledge the problem existed.

    The fix for island ships was implemented soon after schema was made aware of the problem by the community. Adding the power stream a little sooner, when all the basic stabilizer mechanics were well in place, would not have 'broken' anything.
     
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    and you believed him?
    Is there reason not to? I haven't heard of him having a history of telling lies. There's a difference between not saying something and saying something that isn't true. And when it comes to not saying anything at all, how do you think the community would react if Schema came out and said, "We are trying to come up with ways to balance out this new mechanic, but don't have any viable ideas"? Not only would that make him and the rest of the devs look stupid, the backlash would be relentless. "Why did you implement this in the first place, then?" "How could you not have a fix to the problem you created?" Stuff like that. Lancake did have a few ideas that he listed off before we came up with what we have now, but they all had major flaws. Our starting point was working off of center of mass, but from there we drifted away from that idea.
     
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    CyberTao

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    I'll be honest, I don't understand the thought process. Lets start with a explanation of the old power systems;

    The old power system was a soft-capped equation, where power per block was put on a curve, which took into account the total dimensions of the reactor group (Height, width, and length of a box surrounding the entire thing). The soft-cap was not always in place, but became so after a user fully understood the mechanic (which was the sum of dimensions squared at the time) and reached the hard-cap of 2.14 billion regen (Java limit at that time).
    Most users would use straight lines in a waffle setup, maximising regen along 1 dimension, however there are players like me who would wrap the enegry groups around the ship in an attempt to maximise on the dimensions of that ship.

    From what I can hear, because I am not so eager to jump into this mud pit, the new system allows you to place a cube or blob of reactors, and connect them to another cube or blob of stabilisers (in a recent update, allowed you to connect more than 1 group of stabilisers, so now reactors can benefit from the full dimensions of a ship like the old system, Sort of).
    The result is 2 or more blobs with a stretch of empty space, which a large beam running through the middle to connect them. This confused me, because the plan was originally to "encourage" empty space for interiors for future updates, but then they made it unusable as good interior by putting a beam there. At some point they added the option to redirect and wrap the beam around the interiors, which is what I was doing with the old system so thanks for retaining some of the features?

    I don't understand what the plan was. They made reactors take up less space overall, then put a ugly ass beam in the way. They freed up interior space, but then made systems more potent, needing less space. They had also recently nerfed the mass of decoration blocks come to think of it, so even decorating all that empty space would put a strain on systems, needing more thrust and power.
    Everything just needs less, and the result was dumb-bells and stick spaghetti ships, because there was no need to armour up that massive hollow space. Then they tried to nerf that with shield bubbles, which they were wholeheartedly against in the past, and the community actively shot down suggestions about because of that. The result was no change to the spaghetti meta, because honestly Alpha became so potent that all you needed to do was click and win.
    Then they nerfed cloaking because of the cloak and alpha meta that they themselves had created, which I suppose sorta worked, but now everyone is gimped and basically unable to use cloaking.

    All of this, all of these problems, were created because Schine sought to solve the problem of players packing systems into ships? I wasn't aware system packing was a problem, but they saw it as such. When I asked devs about it pre release, they all said it was for future content (which any veteran knows means stuff in 6-12 months minimum), and they honestly gave no indication of what to do with this newfound space. It was just "this was a problem, so we solved it. You're welcome".

    I don't even know how I would build if I started playing again. Apparently I'm expected to smoosh reactors against the hull of my ship to maximise power, which is a terrible idea from a design and immersion standpoint. I'm honestly terrified of seeing how starter salvagers are supposed to look and work.


    The TL;DR is this is a confusing mess and no one, not even schine knows what to do about it in the current game. I cant even call it a side-grade, we have Less weapon effects, Worse quality cloaking, Identical power mechanics (dimensions mainly), Broken and outdated all NPCs in game.
    With the old system, you could just place down blocks and see how they worked, making it easy to get started. Now its apparently menus and the need to connect something to something else. The barrier to entry is higher, because you cant just put something together and see how it works, because it just wont work if it isn't set up properly (And for some reason, some players actually praise the higher barrier to entry, which I consider elitism and isn't something a game intended for everyone should build on).

    A lot of people say its an alpha and these things are expected and not to get too attached to your ships. The problem isn't even it being alpha, or being attached to ships. Most of the complainers Hope mechanics will change, and are willing to refit ships. The problem is the change was suddenly, had no regard to feedback, and ultimate made many people unable to enjoy a game they had paid for. I don't want to be an ass, but we didn't come here to bugtest and stroke your fiddle. We paid money for a game we saw promise in, and wanted to help guide and nurture it into something worthy of release, and some of us are even more than willing to help hunt and report bugs. Problems arise when the game shifts into something objectively inferior than it was, making systems arbitrary, not complex. People are upset because it stinks, and Schine wants to build off it.

    People once thought they could build a tower in the mud, and now its just a tourist meme that no one can live in cause its fucking sideways.
     

    CyberTao

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    Code:
    Last 30 Days     75.1     -0.1     -0.08%     162
    January 2018     75.1     +7.6     +11.22%     162
    December 2017     67.5     +9.7     +16.79%     120
    November 2017     57.8     -2.3     -3.89%     117
    October 2017     60.2     +3.2     +5.62%     114
    September 2017     57.0     -8.0     -12.32%     112
    source
    From average 116 up to 162 means a raise of 40 percent players compared to the last 4 months.
    Thats the peak players, not average. Average players onyl went up by 7.6.
    The fact that the peak players spiked and affect the average much means people logged on to see what was new, and then didn't stay, which is common for any update really.

    And even then, look back even further and you'll see that the small spike doesnt even compare to the massive drops.
     
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    . . .would not have 'broken' anything.
    Excuse me but, how in hell do you know that? Are you a game developer who has made games in Java before with the same complexity of Starmade? Are you intimately familiar with the game's code?

    What, pray tell, makes you think you have the qualifications to say something like this?
     
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    Excuse me but, how in hell do you know that? Are you a game developer who has made games in Java before with the same complexity of Starmade? Are you intimately familiar with the game's code?

    What, pray tell, makes you think you have the qualifications to say something like this?
    There was a long period before power streams were added in which there were no fundamental changes to the stabilizer system, only balance adjustments. Streams could have been added anywhere in this time with the same potential consequences, but were added after the dev team realized islands were a problem due to feedback from the community.

    Does YamiHikari need to be a game developer with intimate knowledge of the game's code to make the statements he did, or is that only a requirement for people you disagree with?
     
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    God mode, I don't need to be, so long as I got the statements from a knowledgeable and reliable source. I'm not a spokesperson for the devs, nor am I representative of them. You don't need to take the things I say seriously because I actually have no credibility; but I take these things from conversations I have with the devs. These are all things I remember the devs mentioning to me. I won't deny that I could have mis-remembered bits and pieces, but I know that I remember these statements well.
     
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