Balance weapon stats to only require a few system blocks

[JinM]

The only problem I see is, how do you account for turrets with multiple weapons on them?

I think there is no realistic way. Something like logic blocks linking, and wireless linking could be used. Some sort of "wireless weapons computer".

Maybe they consider it....I just think they have this long to do list, of prioritised features (planets, factions, AI) and something like that is at the end of their list. Sadly.

 

[TheDerpGamerX]

Here's the problem I see with buffing weapons:

While yes, smaller ships would more effective, due to damage scaling and whatnot, titans would become even more broken. The current PvP meta among the best players is not about fighting anymore. Most PvP titan battles these days are reliant on who gets the first shot, rather than who is actually the better player with a better ship. This is because at titan level, weapons do such insane amounts of damage, a decent can easily kill another titan in a matter of seconds. This is obviously broken.

I feel like instead of buffing weapons, we should first buff the hell out of shields and armor, so titan fights aren't as boring. Then, smaller ships should play a role in battles, such as bombers that would get a large maneuverability stat that would decrease the chance of shots actually hitting it. In order to encourage people to use bombers, players should be able to tell them to target systems and if the bombers are able to hit, the enemy ship would receive some kind of penalty (such as damage to shields and power). Fighters could also serve to protect the titan from bombers and other fighters. This would make titan fights much longer and more epic as they should be.

 

[NaStral]

If weapons were to be buffed like this, some kind of drawback would need to be put in place such as making weapon system blocks having a higher mass per block and some kind of logarithmic rolloff or even a damage cap.

 

[Valiant70]

Buffing smaller weapons would just lead to horrendous balancing, there's no way it can feasibly work without making PvP broken.

Weapons in Starmade need to be balanced by power consumption, not size.
[doublepost=1512875268,1512874767][/doublepost]Oh here's an idea.
Guns too big.
Shields too weak.
Therefore, make guns smaller and weaker by reducing power output. Wait, the power update will probably do that, right?

 

[The Judge]

Weapons in Starmade need to be balanced by power consumption, not size.
[doublepost=1512875268,1512874767][/doublepost]Oh here's an idea.
Guns too big.
Shields too weak.
Therefore, make guns smaller and weaker by reducing power output. Wait, the power update will probably do that, right?

Wouldn't that just make ships more overpowered with new power?
Newpower(tm) is gonna promote ships that are composed of several detached sections, or something along the lines of a shitty looking dumbell. Making a vital component of the ship (like the weapons) really small is going to most likely ruin balance even further. Generally you need to keep in mind that buffing RP ships will buff PvP ships exponentially more.

 

[Valiant70]

Wouldn't that just make ships more overpowered with new power?
Newpower(tm) is gonna promote ships that are composed of several detached sections, or something along the lines of a shitty looking dumbell. Making a vital component of the ship (like the weapons) really small is going to most likely ruin balance even further. Generally you need to keep in mind that buffing RP ships will buff PvP ships exponentially more.

Have you read the prerelease patch notes yet? If the integrity system actually works as intended (currently skeptical), we can probably get away with something like this more readily. In any case, the weapons don't need to be as small as the OP suggested. A 3x reduction in size would be enough IMHO. I'm going to test a few things with the new power system and see how large weapons need to be now.

 

[Lecic]

Have you read the prerelease patch notes yet? If the integrity system actually works as intended (currently skeptical), we can probably get away with something like this more readily. In any case, the weapons don't need to be as small as the OP suggested. A 3x reduction in size would be enough IMHO. I'm going to test a few things with the new power system and see how large weapons need to be now.

The integrity system does a great job of removing Spaghetti ships, but it doesn't do much to fix Island ships or Dumbbell ships.

And, again, weapons do not need buffed. They are already extremely strong.

 

[Valiant70]

The integrity system does a great job of removing Spaghetti ships, but it doesn't do much to fix Island ships or Dumbbell ships.

Really? It de-optimizes spaghetti ships enough? I'm actually kind of surprised. To fix the islands, we're going to need your idea with the conduits and resistance, or something similar to de-optimize excessively far-away stabilizers.

To fix dumbbells, we're going to need my idea with multiple stabilizers reducing minimum distance somewhat. If done right, ships could have a lot of different shapes with stabilizers on each far edge and the reactor in the center. Optimal PVP ships will depend on the details of the mechanics.

And, again, weapons do not need buffed. They are already extremely strong.

Again, to achieve smaller weapons, you just need to increase their energy consumption. That solves offense/defense imbalance and reduces the overall size of guns. How much would you say weapons need to be changed compared to the defensive system?

 

[Lecic]

Really? It de-optimizes spaghetti ships enough?

Well, it makes their shield systems explode upon taking a hit even while shields are up, and it makes all their other systems explode as well, so... yes?

Again, to achieve smaller weapons, you just need to increase their energy consumption. That solves offense/defense imbalance and reduces the overall size of guns. How much would you say weapons need to be changed compared to the defensive system?

So we're clear, what exactly are you proposing? Originally it seemed like you wanted to make weapons smaller by keeping their damage per power the same but increase the damage per block, so you could have smaller weapons with the same stats?

If you wanted to do something like that, you would also have to adjust mass and resource cost accordingly.

At the end of the day though, the main problem with weapons is that they are substantially more effective on a per mass basis (yes, even accounting for power) than any of the defensive options in the game. Decreasing power output doesn't help with this because that hurts defensive options as well.

 

[Zoolimar]

The integrity system does a great job of removing Spaghetti ships, but it doesn't do much to fix Island ships or Dumbbell ships

2x2 strands are all right. Don't know how much it will actually nerf spaghetti.

And with how the mechanic is setup it is not that easy to make the ratios for anything over 3x3 to work right without getting on the toes of RP builds. Though should be possible.

 

[Valiant70]

So we're clear, what exactly are you proposing? Originally it seemed like you wanted to make weapons smaller by keeping their damage per power the same but increase the damage per block, so you could have smaller weapons with the same stats?

If you wanted to do something like that, you would also have to adjust mass and resource cost accordingly.

At the end of the day though, the main problem with weapons is that they are substantially more effective on a per mass basis (yes, even accounting for power) than any of the defensive options in the game. Decreasing power output doesn't help with this because that hurts defensive options as well.

Based on all of this, it sounds like weapons need to be both less power-efficient and heavier for their output. I've adjusted my proposal from the OP's given that weapons are currently too powerful. This should fix both issues.

I was hoping to get some ballpark numbers from a hardcore PVP player like Lecic .

2x2 strands are all right. Don't know how much it will actually nerf spaghetti.

And with how the mechanic is setup it is not that easy to make the ratios for anything over 3x3 to work right without getting on the toes of RP builds. Though should be possible.

You'd need to look at overall shape rather than thickness to find and penalize thicker strands, such as 3x3x100. There's no reason for something to be more than about 10x as long as it is thick on a RP build.

 

[Non]

2x2 strands are all right. Don't know how much it will actually nerf spaghetti.

And with how the mechanic is setup it is not that easy to make the ratios for anything over 3x3 to work right without getting on the toes of RP builds. Though should be possible.

Please put this in the pre-release thread.