Yet another Shotgun suggestion: seeker shots

[jayman38]

Similar to other suggestions, instead of specifically tightening the spread of the shotgun effect, make it similar to the missile swarm effect in that, using the shotgun spread "cone", select a random block on a random target (friend or foe) in the cone, and shoot at it with one of the shotgun "pellets". (The cone targetting will deeply limit the number of friendly fire incidents with this weapon.)

For shotgun weapons, I'd recommend that the first "pellet" always be a straight-forward shot, regardless of whether there is a target there or not. This may become important for electronic warfare versus conventional warfare. (Example: You -know- there's a clocked ship straight ahead, but even if the shotgun effect won't target a cloaked ship, you can still hit it manually.)

Speaking of which, cloaked and jammed ships should be excluded from random targetting by the shotgun "swarm".

For missile defense, the shotgun will work as it does now, without "seeking", preferably with a smaller "cone". That way, there is no 100% effective AMS with this effect.

Similarly, if there are no targets in the firing cone, the shotgun effect will work as it does now. Again, preferably with a smaller "cone" and with more randomness in individual "pellet" vectors.

For regular shots against regular ships, since the "seeking" picks a random block, it should not be OP, because it is as likely to hit a decorative block or out-of-the-way armor block as it is to hit an exposed system block.

This will likely result in this effect being used far more often, because it will simply be far more effective at hitting things.

Shotguns will likely have a higher-than-average effectiveness against drone swarms, which I consider a good thing, considering the above-average effectiveness of the swarm meta. You would now have a weapon that roughly counters that swarm tactic.

 

[Coyote27]

I kinda like the idea of seeking cannon shells - since they exist in real life now - but I'd rather it be a separate thing from an improved and useful shotgun. I'd propose it to be tied to pulse secondary or something, since it currently isn't that great either.

 

[Dr. Whammy]

Similar to other suggestions, instead of specifically tightening the spread of the shotgun effect, make it similar to the missile swarm effect in that, using the shotgun spread "cone", select a random block on a random target (friend or foe) in the cone, and shoot at it with one of the shotgun "pellets". (The cone targetting will deeply limit the number of friendly fire incidents with this weapon.)

For shotgun weapons, I'd recommend that the first "pellet" always be a straight-forward shot, regardless of whether there is a target there or not. This may become important for electronic warfare versus conventional warfare. (Example: You -know- there's a clocked ship straight ahead, but even if the shotgun effect won't target a cloaked ship, you can still hit it manually.)

Speaking of which, cloaked and jammed ships should be excluded from random targetting by the shotgun "swarm".

For missile defense, the shotgun will work as it does now, without "seeking", preferably with a smaller "cone". That way, there is no 100% effective AMS with this effect.

Similarly, if there are no targets in the firing cone, the shotgun effect will work as it does now. Again, preferably with a smaller "cone" and with more randomness in individual "pellet" vectors.

For regular shots against regular ships, since the "seeking" picks a random block, it should not be OP, because it is as likely to hit a decorative block or out-of-the-way armor block as it is to hit an exposed system block.

This will likely result in this effect being used far more often, because it will simply be far more effective at hitting things.

Shotguns will likely have a higher-than-average effectiveness against drone swarms, which I consider a good thing, considering the above-average effectiveness of the swarm meta. You would now have a weapon that roughly counters that swarm tactic.

Interesting concept. I'm not opposed but I'm not yet convinced we need another seeker weapon; especially a shotgun.

Regarding random blocks; this method of balance will negates the point of having an aim-able multi-projectile weapon. A weapon that is in-precise by design, intentionally targeting random blocks is likely to be passed over for more conventional weapons. ...Unless we get a shotgun dumbfire missile.

As presented, this idea doesn't seem as though it would mesh well with the 'information warfare' mechanic that is supposedly around the corner. People are going to be targeting each other's reactors to end fights quickly so this weapon idea does not seem to lend itself well to that purpose.

I do see promise in their use as an anti-drone weapon (especially with a non-bugged explosive effect) but they seem like they'd be next to useless against a much larger craft.

Please correct me if I've misunderstood your idea or you have an alternative solution.

I kinda like the idea of seeking cannon shells - since they exist in real life now -but I'd rather it be a separate thing from an improved and useful shotgun. I'd propose it to be tied to pulse secondary or something, since it currently isn't that great either.

Not quite. "guided" shells exist. Not seeking shells. The weapons in question are guided by lasers and/or GPS on the launching vehicle to alter the shell's trajectory in flight via control surfaces. The system is basically a miniaturized version of the TOW missile system adapted for cannon shells and now apparently .50 caliber rounds.

Even still, I think precision guided munitions might be a nice addition to the game. ...IF they don't follow the ridiculous system block targeting mechanic we have now. Also, I agree that they should probably remain separate from the shotgun secondary but would complain if they weren't.

 

[jayman38]

Interesting concept. I'm not opposed but I'm not yet convinced we need another seeker weapon; especially a shotgun.

Regarding random blocks; this method of balance will negates the point of having an aim-able multi-projectile weapon. A weapon that is in-precise by design, intentionally targeting random blocks is likely to be passed over for more conventional weapons. ...Unless we get a shotgun dumbfire missile.

As presented, this idea doesn't seem as though it would mesh well with the 'information warfare' mechanic that is supposedly around the corner. People are going to be targeting each other's reactors to end fights quickly so this weapon idea does not seem to lend itself well to that purpose.

I do see promise in their use as an anti-drone weapon (especially with a non-bugged explosive effect) but they seem like they'd be next to useless against a much larger craft.

Please correct me if I've misunderstood your idea or you have an alternative solution.


Not quite. "guided" shells exist. Not seeking shells. The weapons in question are guided by lasers and/or GPS on the launching vehicle to alter the shell's trajectory in flight via control surfaces. The system is basically a miniaturized version of the TOW missile system adapted for cannon shells and now apparently .50 caliber rounds.

Even still, I think precision guided munitions might be a nice addition to the game. ...IF they don't follow the ridiculous system block targeting mechanic we have now. Also, I agree that they should probably remain separate from the shotgun secondary but would complain if they weren't.

Thanks for the input! However, this weapon system is not designed for a specific combat meta in mind. It is a proposal for how shotgun weapons could be made to work in a space environment. As it is now, the "shotgun" mechanic simply doesn't work. Sometimes, by accident, a shotgun cannon can shoot down a random missile, but the spread is too great for general warfare purposes. Shotguns need a slight adjustment to make it a viable weapon system. This suggestion is one such possible adjustment.

Over-penetration? Add a shotgun effect to reduce the chance of any one shot over-penetrating and to have the weapon penetrate multiple vectors. Information warfare? If you're being jammed in such a way that you have no real idea where the active reactor is located, this kind of shotgun weapon can hit multiple points, exposing various systems, finding the reactor or knocking out the jamming function so you can directly target with your other weapons. This weapon type would not be the primary weapon, but could still find many uses. Many, many more than the existing shotgun subweapon branch we have now.

The fact that you can visualize their effectiveness versus drones while still being as effective in their current AMS role shows that this kind of weapon, while not an ultimate weapon, is a useful tool in the builder's toolbox that can be used to create a well-rounded brawler. By comparison, the existing shotgun mechanic simply is not useful enough to be used much, and where it is used, it under-performs next to one of the more popular weapon types.

 

[Dr. Whammy]

Thanks for the input! However, this weapon system is not designed for a specific combat meta in mind. It is a proposal for how shotgun weapons could be made to work in a space environment. As it is now, the "shotgun" mechanic simply doesn't work. Sometimes, by accident, a shotgun cannon can shoot down a random missile, but the spread is too great for general warfare purposes. Shotguns need a slight adjustment to make it a viable weapon system. This suggestion is one such possible adjustment.

Over-penetration? Add a shotgun effect to reduce the chance of any one shot over-penetrating and to have the weapon penetrate multiple vectors. Information warfare? If you're being jammed in such a way that you have no real idea where the active reactor is located, this kind of shotgun weapon can hit multiple points, exposing various systems, finding the reactor or knocking out the jamming function so you can directly target with your other weapons. This weapon type would not be the primary weapon, but could still find many uses. Many, many more than the existing shotgun subweapon branch we have now.

The fact that you can visualize their effectiveness versus drones while still being as effective in their current AMS role shows that this kind of weapon, while not an ultimate weapon, is a useful tool in the builder's toolbox that can be used to create a well-rounded brawler. By comparison, the existing shotgun mechanic simply is not useful enough to be used much, and where it is used, it under-performs next to one of the more popular weapon types.

Overall, It's not a bad idea. It's actually very intriguing. I just think a shotgun that can be modified to fire wide patterns, focused and everything in between would be more likely to meet all players' needs.

Regarding anti-missiles: You said in your original post that this weapon would function like the current shotgun. I'm assuming that means unguided. If this is true, it will be outclassed by the current AMS weapon of choice, C/C and may not see much use in an AMS role.

Regarding anti-drone: I see the merit for this use, however, I see just as much, if not more merit in an unguided shotgun weapon that fires at the center of mass of the target. My reason for this is that you have no way of knowing what size of drone you'll be fighting. Your weapon would be great against a little guy like this.

Spoiler

But what happens when these are the "drones" you're fighting?

Spoiler

Regarding over-penetration and information warfare: Once again, I see some merit in the idea. However, since I've spent a decent amount more like unsettlingly large amount of time firing IRL shotguns, I can vouch for the effectiveness of a tight "grouping" (usually called "patterning" for shotguns) over a wider, more randomized scattering of projectiles. In short, it equates to more concentrated damage to a target. Given that we are trying "kill" ships by causing a large amount of disruption to their internals, you're going to want to put as many projectiles in the same general area as possible to maximize the possibility of a direct hit to enemy computers, reactors, stabilizers, etc. Yes; over-penetration is an issue but if you take a strategic approach to building your weapons, you're not likely to have that problem. After all, you're working with a weapon that will have it's damage divided by multiple beams/projectiles. If you over penetrate with something like that, you probably built too big an array and it's time to consider splitting it into multiple outputs.

Your thoughts?

 

[sayerulz]

I think this idea has some definite merit.

Dr. Whammy, is a lack of effectiveness against larger ships such a bad thing? A shotgun very much strikes me as being a weapon intended for targeting smaller, more evasive enemies rather than ships of a similar size to the one firing. I understand that, in terms of an actual shotgun it can do both, shotguns are used to take down birds that it would be very difficult to hit with a rifle, but can also cause huge damage to larger animals. However, in terms of starmade, what we should be thinking about more is canister shot in cannons. Used in anti-infantry and (I think) anti-air roles, because of its ability to cover a wide area, but totally useless against armored vehicles. That's closer to what we have in starmade. So I don't see a problem with a shotgun being most useful for killing craft considerably smaller than the one firing it.

I do have one concern here though, and that's performance. All that auto-aiming seems like it could be a lot of checks for the game to be doing. I'm no expert though, so I could well be wrong.

As for the possibility of adjustable "chokes" on shotguns, I don't support this, as I think it would make it too easy to rapidly turn an area-saturation scattergun into a pinpoint hail of shots that can drill through any armor. This sort of on-the-fly weapons role change seems like it will discourage diverse weapon loadouts.

I'm also reminded of the (now thankfully gone) low-angle frag shell meta in FTD, where people used low angle frags to make deathlasers that could cut through anything.

 

[Dr. Whammy]

I think this idea has some definite merit.

Dr. Whammy, is a lack of effectiveness against larger ships such a bad thing?

How's it going sayerulz?

Wait... did you of all people really just ask me that? Let me put this another way...

But in all seriousness; if the weapon is being proposed as an anti-drone/anti-missile system that's one thing but this format does not match the catch-all that it is being purported to be. I could be wrong on this but that's the way originally it seemed.

A shotgun very much strikes me as being a weapon intended for targeting smaller, more evasive enemies rather than ships of a similar size to the one firing. I understand that, in terms of an actual shotgun it can do both, shotguns are used to take down birds that it would be very difficult to hit with a rifle, but can also cause huge damage to larger animals. However, in terms of starmade, what we should be thinking about more is canister shot in cannons. Used in anti-infantry and (I think) anti-air roles, because of its ability to cover a wide area, but totally useless against armored vehicles. That's closer to what we have in starmade. So I don't see a problem with a shotgun being most useful for killing craft considerably smaller than the one firing it.

An anti-drone spread weapon/flak burst would be an awesome addition to the game. I just don't agree with the guided idea. That's what missile turrets and swarmers are for.

I do have one concern here though, and that's performance. All that auto-aiming seems like it could be a lot of checks for the game to be doing. I'm no expert though, so I could well be wrong.

That's a point most often missed and also the main reason why I don't agree with it being guided. I too see it as a potential processing nightmare with all those trajectory adjustments; not to mention a programing nightmare for Schine.

As for the possibility of adjustable "chokes" on shotguns, I don't support this, as I think it would make it too easy to rapidly turn an area-saturation scattergun into a pinpoint hail of shots that can drill through any armor. This sort of on-the-fly weapons role change seems like it will discourage diverse weapon loadouts.

I'm also reminded of the (now thankfully gone) low-angle frag shell meta in FTD, where people used low angle frags to make deathlasers that could cut through anything.

No where have I ever suggested an "on the fly" choke system. You can't even do that in real life. The best you can do is get a shotgun with a special barrel that accepts a screw in choke; which you'd then have to unscrew from the barrel in order to change to a different spread. That's not something you want to be doing when someone's shooting at you and don't you dare screw it in loose...

My idea has always been that your spread should be determined by your slave weapon block percentage; 0% for focused, to 100% for wide spread. With my idea, the closest you can get to "on the fly" switch would be if you had an additional slave system on your ship and linked it to your primary system. That would limit your options to however many slave systems you managed to fit on board. You could theoretically have all the "adjustments" you want, but your ship would be full of secondaries you aren't actively using; making you a bigger target and packing less firepower than you should. Also, the focused 0% setup would be no more or less effective than a normal cannon (think "slugs") with regard to damage dealt and penetration.

 

[sayerulz]

An anti-drone spread weapon/flak burst would be an awesome addition to the game. I just don't agree with the guided idea. That's what missile turrets and swarmers are for. [/QUOTE]

If I understand the OP correctly, the shots aren't so much guided as auto-aiming. The game selects random blocks within the cone, and then aims and fires at them. However, the projectile still goes in a straight line.



I feel like someone suggested a system where "choke" can be configured like thrust or how weapons used to work, or perhaps I'm just confused. Anyway, choke depending on slave % might


Edit: something is forking borked, because no matter how many times I delete the "end quote" marker at the end of the post, it puts it back.

 

[Dr. Whammy]

If I understand the OP correctly, the shots aren't so much guided as auto-aiming. The game selects random blocks within the cone, and then aims and fires at them. However, the projectile still goes in a straight line.

Auto aiming? Now that's a different story.

I like the concept but I see a slight issue with it. Since you are limited to the auto aiming mechanic, there's no way to saturate a specific area of a larger target. Given the choice, I'd prefer to be the one who controls where the spread hits rather than let the computer decide at random. This may or may not be a problem for other players.

Once again; probably great for drones but probably terrible for anything else including missiles. More clarification from the OP would help.

 

[jayman38]

When I originally made the suggestion, I was thinking that the random-target-block mechanic would be where the swarm-missile comparison would begin and end. That is, when I originally envisioned this suggestion, I figured the shotgun would target random blocks, shoot straight at those, and not alter course after leaving the barrel.

However, when I saw people thinking of "pellets" that changed course toward their target, that sounded rather cool. Yeah, it's another source for calculations that could add to lag. However, that can be addressed probably by only course-correcting every 0.1 seconds or so, assuming individual game frames are much more frequent than that.

Couldn't the target easily maneuver out of the way of the "pellet"? Yes and no. Currently, the cannon shots are so small and relatively hard to see, that by the time you know to avoid them, it's already too late. Even if a target engages evasive maneuvers, they are just as likely to maneuver "into" the pellet as avoid it, since they can't be sure where the random target block is. (Could be an information warfare mechanic for the targeted ship to figure out where exactly it is going to be shot prior to the cannon strike!) Beam shotguns are instant-hit weapons, so those won't need course correction after the initial angle calculation.

I figure that shotgun "choke" could be made into a tertiary effect easier than this suggestion, so I still think there's a place for shotgun "choke", and I think that place is in the effects. On the other hand, when I think of players using the "choke" effect, I can't imagine anything but the tightest choke being used constantly, at which point, they will probably just switch to another secondary weapon effect.

I guess this suggestion could be an effect also. I'll leave it up to someone else to figure out how it changes as it goes from 0% to 100% effect, regardless of whether it would be a secondary or tertiary effect.

Regarding AMS:
The only time I have ever read about anyone actually using the shotgun effect on a "production" ship was as a supplementary weapon on their AMS turrets as a last-ditch effort to destroy any missiles that didn't get hit with the turret's c/c direct-fire weapons. This tells me that shotgun effect is completely under-utilized in the game and needs a change. Maybe it's choke. Maybe it's random targeting. Maybe it's both. Maybe it's something else.

Regarding large drones:
This is no different from enhanced pirates on some servers. If the target is a big enough threat, you'll probably switch to a different, more-direct-fire system to attack it as a regular ship.

Regarding attacking a specific area on a target:
If you want to target a specific area on a target, you probably don't want to use a shotgun weapon at all, and you would probably be better served by a direct-fire weapon, possibly with punch-through or explosive effect. I see regular cannons and beams being used for this purpose over shotgun effects, especially in a space game.

 

[Coyote27]

How much spread from a shotgun do you think would be ideal? For me, I might initially suggest 30 minutes of angle (MoA) for a focused shot and one degree for unfocused, but that could be tinkered with and perhaps reduced to 15 MoA for focused and 30 for unfocused. Any spread greater than one degree is most likely going to be largely wasted.

 

[jayman38]

How much spread from a shotgun do you think would be ideal? For me, I might initially suggest 30 minutes of angle (MoA) for a focused shot and one degree for unfocused, but that could be tinkered with and perhaps reduced to 15 MoA for focused and 30 for unfocused. Any spread greater than one degree is most likely going to be largely wasted.

According to my calculates, with 30 MoA equating to 0.5 degrees, tan(0.5 degrees) = slightly less than 0.9% spread. (0.873%)

At 2000 m, this equates to a radius about 18 m. At that range, it's not much different than the spread of manual aiming. Good, steady manual aiming at that. You might as well use a direct-fire weapon (single-output cannon or beam).

0.9% might be a decent rise-over-run value for a real space shotgun. However, in Starmade, you'd probably be better off with a more effective or more globally useful effect.

If I were forced to give my idea of an optimal spread for a Starmade shotgun effect, I might give 4 degrees, 8 times your amount, which yields a radius of 140 m at a distance of 2000 m, which is generous and might actually be too big for fun gameplay. A better, all-around spread for players might be half my spread, 2 degrees, which yields a 3.5% spread. At 2000m, that is a radius of about 70 m. 70 m radius is probably pretty close to the average spinal radius of the average ship. So yes, I think 2 degrees of spread would be ideal for Starmade.

By way of comparison, I think the current shotgun effect has 45 degrees of spread. (!?!)

 

[Coyote27]

. A better, all-around spread for players might be half my spread, 2 degrees, which yields a 3.5% spread. At 2000m, that is a radius of about 70 m. 70 m radius is probably pretty close to the average spinal radius of the average ship. So yes, I think 2 degrees of spread would be ideal for Starmade.

Fair enough, let's go with that then as a suggestion that we can agree on.

 

[Dr. Whammy]

I now understand your intentions. Personally, I'd like to see both a guided and unguided version but your idea does have its perks.

Regarding spread angle and the appropriate situations for each; perhaps some real life ballistics data will help you decide. Below are the effects of different types of shotgun ammo on ballistic gelatin.


Birdshot; the first picture, is primarily used to take down birds by creating a wall of lead pellets. This is your anti-drone spread but it can be highly destructive at close range or over a wide area with large enough guns with explosive effects.

Spoiler: Close range wide spread

Buckshot creates a semi-tight - tight cluster of deep penetrating projectiles. Better accuracy than the wide spread equates to more focused damage. This is a general purpose fighting/defense ammo

Spoiler: Mid range, narrow-mid spread

A slug is a big hunk of lead that punches a hole through a target. Overpenetration is expected but in StarMade, this is your anti armor setup. This is basically a 0% secondary.

Spoiler: Minimal/no spread

A video of the different ammo types to compare.