Salvager Efficiency

[Stormraven]

So I'm running into an odd issue with one of my larger mining ships suddenly salvaging much more slowly than it seems it should.

I had read that Salvage/Pulse was a great way to quickly plow through asteroids, and that it was most efficient to arrange them in 9x1x1 blocks.

Is this no longer the case? Because it seems like my older salvager is doing better with larger rows than the new one with the supposedly 'optimized' build.

 

[Snowtiger256]

Salvagers should be built in waffled(as in checkerboard pattern) 50-100-block long arrays to maximize salvaging power. Pulse slave might help up the power on smaller arrays, but due to increased power drain it's not recommendedfor large arrays...

My most recent salvager has almost 52k salvage modules in two 50-block long arrays waffled and offset so that the rear array shoots through the gaps in the front one, and are not tied to any slave whatsoever. This setup allows me a salvage rating of 25.6blocks/second, and is enough to blast through asteroids in seconds. My arrays are not square, but in an elongated diamond shape to make my salvager a bit more easy on the eyes.

For reference, check the download link below.
TFS Nexus

 

[Stormraven]

Salvagers should be built in waffled(as in checkerboard pattern) 50-100-block long arrays to maximize salvaging power. Pulse slave might help up the power on smaller arrays, but due to increased power drain it's not recommendedfor large arrays...

My most recent salvager has almost 52k salvage modules in two 50-block long arrays waffled and offset so that the rear array shoots through the gaps in the front one, and are not tied to any slave whatsoever. This setup allows me a salvage rating of 25.6blocks/second, and is enough to blast through asteroids in seconds. My arrays are not square, but in an elongated diamond shape to make my salvager a bit more easy on the eyes.

For reference, check the download link below.
TFS Nexus

Ooh! I love the look of your salvage array. VERY nice!
So you don't use any salvage slaves at all, even Salvage/Salvage?
I was under the impression that this would be significantly less powerful than the alternatives. Is it just a power conservation thing?

 

[Snowtiger256]

Yep, no salvage slaves at all, of any kind, the only slaved systems on my salvager are the defensive weapons arrays I use for pirate defense. Nothing slaved to the array itself at all, and it still does it's job like a champ.

 

[Stormraven]

So I just went and tested this, and you are totally right!
I can't really fathom why I'm the world the slaved systems don't do significantly more than the unsaved salvage. That's actually kind of upsetting...

 

[kingreol]

91 blocks for salve/cannon to peak out per output. Pulse I believe is 9.. going past peak amount will net you nothing, anywho it's not easy to gauge speed visually or with block count. Servers can take time updating. Use inventory tab and notice if it's very bad, as they resources go into your cargo before the blocks get unloaded

 

[Stormraven]

I read the same thing about the Sal/Pulse efficiency. However, when I tested that, back to back rows of 9 did far less than 1 row of 18. I'm not certain what metric the person who posted that was using to measure efficiency, but it does not appear to be mining speed.

 

[Heillos]

Disclaimer: I don't have the time or inclination to verify facts in-game very much, but this is probably about right.

iirc salvage/cannon needs, like, 191 blocks per array to salvage 1 block/tick; pure salvage is what needs 91. Salvage/pulse should be 7 blocks, if my math follows, 24 for salvage beam, and 91 for salvage/missile. Here's a spreadsheet to look at, if you like, goodness knows if the maths is correct though.

All different salvage combos deal the same salvage damage per second (though some deal more per firing cycle because their cycles are longer, as are their reloads); can't remember if power consumption follows suit. Long story short, none of them have particular advantages, although using pure salvage cuts down on manufacturing costs for your ship.

In terms of how the ship "feels" when salvaging, I'd definitely suggest not using pulse, beam or missile; the slower cooldown makes an already quite boring activity even less interesting since you feel like you are doing less (you're not, but that's beside the point). Two salvage arrays on an appropriately set logic clock to alternate between them will provide a constant salvage beam, or just use salvage/cannon.

 

[Az14el]

Because it seems like my older salvager is doing better with larger rows than the new one with the supposedly 'optimized' build.

There are efficient group sizes (200 salvage power per tick per group precisely, some sources may still say 100 but this is not right, current config values checked as of this morning for any blocks 'salvage hp' is 200.)
As in you won't waste ticks on partially mining blocks and will cause no unnecessary lag or fps drops.
Total system size of your salvage grid is still much more important for total mining speed, you will want to add more groups, or make each group larger.

The biggest advantage to building with these specific group sizes is that you can build a bigger miner, with more outputs and mine more recklessly without causing trouble for other people or getting yelled at by Admins. Still nice to stay within server rules on salvage groups, but understand that those rules exist primarily because of how bad an inefficiently built super-salvager can be to a server. Which is very.

 

[Stormraven]

There are efficient group sizes (200 salvage power per tick per group precisely, some sources may still say 100 but this is not right, current config values checked as of this morning for any blocks 'salvage hp' is 200.)
As in you won't waste ticks on partially mining blocks and will cause no unnecessary lag or fps drops.
Total system size of your salvage grid is still much more important for total mining speed, you will want to add more groups, or make each group larger.

The biggest advantage to building with these specific group sizes is that you can build a bigger miner, with more outputs and mine more recklessly without causing trouble for other people or getting yelled at by Admins. Still nice to stay within server rules on salvage groups, but understand that those rules exist primarily because of how bad an inefficiently built super-salvager can be to a server. Which is very.

Do you know if the wiki values for different salvage systems are current?

Support Tool Systems - StarMade Wiki

 

[Az14el]

Do you know if the wiki values for different salvage systems are current?

Support Tool Systems - StarMade Wiki

Not totally sure about everything there but power per hit, range & initial ticks are all same as current, as far as im aware, so it should(tm) be up to date

 

[Stormraven]

So in theory, any multiple of a group size which would result in 200 salvage HP damage would be equally efficient, yes?
If it dealt 400 per tic (for example) you would still be able to avoid partial block mining?

 

[DrTarDIS]

So in theory, any multiple of a group size which would result in 200 salvage HP damage would be equally efficient, yes?
If it dealt 400 per tic (for example) you would still be able to avoid partial block mining?

i think at 400/tick you'd be wasting 200/tick, but not causing extra checks/SALVAGEhp updates. I don't think salvagers have penetration implemented., but i could be wrong.

 

[Stormraven]

i think at 400/tick you'd be wasting 200/tick, but not causing extra checks/SALVAGEhp updates. I don't think salvagers have penetration implemented., but i could be wrong.

Good to know! I'll double check it (just in case of unexpected weirdness), but thanks for the tip!

 

[Heillos]

Also bear in mind the initial ticks that salvage beams do to each block. It's always 10 ticks, but the total damage dealt by these varies based on slave systems, and this means that the true maximum is a bit less than 200 damage/tick for the different systems.

 

[Az14el]

Also bear in mind the initial ticks that salvage beams do to each block. It's always 10 ticks, but the total damage dealt by these varies based on slave systems, and this means that the true maximum is a bit less than 200 damage/tick for the different systems.

Thank you! so 96 block/group if pure salvage after all? had this discussion with someone before i think but i was probably being stubborn.
May not be remembering their numbers right either, but couldn't quite understand why they wouldnt use 200 s/p exactly

edited; because apparently i can't read, Hellios' initial post nailed it, mine was overshooting on salv power

 

[Stormraven]

Disclaimer: I don't have the time or inclination to verify facts in-game very much, but this is probably about right.

iirc salvage/cannon needs, like, 191 blocks per array to salvage 1 block/tick; pure salvage is what needs 91. Salvage/pulse should be 7 blocks, if my math follows, 24 for salvage beam, and 91 for salvage/missile. Here's a spreadsheet to look at, if you like, goodness knows if the maths is correct though.

All different salvage combos deal the same salvage damage per second (though some deal more per firing cycle because their cycles are longer, as are their reloads); can't remember if power consumption follows suit. Long story short, none of them have particular advantages, although using pure salvage cuts down on manufacturing costs for your ship.

In terms of how the ship "feels" when salvaging, I'd definitely suggest not using pulse, beam or missile; the slower cooldown makes an already quite boring activity even less interesting since you feel like you are doing less (you're not, but that's beside the point). Two salvage arrays on an appropriately set logic clock to alternate between them will provide a constant salvage beam, or just use salvage/cannon.

Looking over the sheet, the math seems solid. I can follow their steps and everything lines up with the "official" numbers.

If I'm right, and that sheet is accurate, then that does lead to some interesting possibilities.
That math would make Sal/Beams the best bang for your buck in regards to space vs efficiency. (Requiring much shorter barrels for the same peak mining speed with the added benefit of extra range)

However, if mass and space are not a concern... Sal/Missile could be utterly devestating in large scale.
It would take an insanely huge array, but it would be terrifyingly efficient. More so the larger you go, in fact. Missile slave salvagers fire 10 beams and split the damage equally. So if you were to make each row approximately 10 times what the single beam efficiency rate is at that damage level, you could make every single missile beam mine just as fast as any of the other slave types.

In essence, by building a 900*25*25 sal/missile array you could make a 156 barrel mining system pull in just as much as a 1562 barrel system of any other kind.

Which is completely impractical and rediculous, but interesting! LoL

 

[kingreol]

its best never to use missile slaves for mining. less you want the server to unionize and assult you hard.. we already have a piss poor way to mine with 1000 so outputs. no reason to make it 9000, also the missile slave template used is ugly as sin. either make it random or symmetrical.
[doublepost=1485720075,1485719587][/doublepost]

Disclaimer: I don't have the time or inclination to verify facts in-game very much, but this is probably about right.

iirc salvage/cannon needs, like, 191 blocks per array to salvage 1 block/tick; pure salvage is what needs 91. Salvage/pulse should be 7 blocks, if my math follows, 24 for salvage beam, and 91 for salvage/missile. Here's a spreadsheet to look at, if you like, goodness knows if the maths is correct though.

All different salvage combos deal the same salvage damage per second (though some deal more per firing cycle because their cycles are longer, as are their reloads); can't remember if power consumption follows suit. Long story short, none of them have particular advantages, although using pure salvage cuts down on manufacturing costs for your ship.

In terms of how the ship "feels" when salvaging, I'd definitely suggest not using pulse, beam or missile; the slower cooldown makes an already quite boring activity even less interesting since you feel like you are doing less (you're not, but that's beside the point). Two salvage arrays on an appropriately set logic clock to alternate between them will provide a constant salvage beam, or just use salvage/cannon.

everyone feels the need to use logic clocks for mining. never understood how they could stand loosing the mouse pointing action to clean up the astroid remaining bits faster

 

[Panpiper]

everyone feels the need to use logic clocks for mining. never understood how they could stand loosing the mouse pointing action to clean up the astroid remaining bits faster

It's a single array of salvager/cannon for me, half and half. They'll be ~200 blocks per beam and I'll typically have around 700 of them, but there's no logic involved. Fly up to an asteroid, spend ten or fifteen seconds holding down the fire button, moving the top of the constant beam along the top edge of the asteroid, move on to the next asteroid. Nothing fancy, and IMO, nothing fancier works better.

 

[Heillos]

everyone feels the need to use logic clocks for mining. never understood how they could stand loosing the mouse pointing action to clean up the astroid remaining bits faster

Seems pretty simple to me; logic clocks minimize effort, such as holding down the firing button. I know video games are, in fact, not serious business, but it still reduces what fatigue you do get from having to hold a button down to mine on long trips, and reducing the fatigue of a boring task is pretty welcome tbh.

You're probably right that it makes cleanup slightly slower, but an increase in comfort at a minor loss of speed is pretty welcome imo.