Planned Missile Lock Alert

[Jasper1991]

so adding the beep thing is just fine?
Anyway I dont see the point of why it should or shouldnt be there, it doesnt give anyone any advantages or disadvantages since PD turrets already sees missiles as soon as they are launched. it really wouldnt change all that much for the attacker other than your target starts moving earlier.
we could also go as far as adding stealth missiles in some way, maybe they cost more power to use and has less health but are not visible to ai nor this warning system?
There's a lot of ways to discuss this warning system other than immediately going to the NOPE part.

Did you even read any of the post you quoted?

I have explained how this suggestion kills long range combat by taking away one of the two only advantages missiles have over other weapons, that being range.

Btw Point Defence turrets do not detect missiles until they are in range of the PD turrets weapons.


If you wanted an early warning system, its pretty easy to get a turret based enemy detector and change it to detect missiles, so this suggestion is pretty much already in the game.

 

[Nauvran]

Did you even read any of the post you quoted?

I have explained how this suggestion kills long range combat by taking away one of the two only advantages missiles have over other weapons, that being range.

Btw Point Defence turrets do not detect missiles until they are in range of the PD turrets weapons.


If you wanted an early warning system, its pretty easy to get a turret based enemy detector and change it to detect missiles, so this suggestion is pretty much already in the game.

I read most of it yes.
I was just throwing in a quick opinion and you don't like it, which is fine, excuse me that I annoyed you with a post.

 

[TheGT]

There is cold background, that cold background also cools other objects, missiles would be cooled outside of thermal detection ranges in seconds.

If you give an early warning system to missiles, then people will warp out as soon as they get a warning, before jump inhibitors people would warp out at the first sign of any danger and it completely killed PvP, this suggestion seeks to bring that terrible mechanic of warping out at the first sign of danger back, the only difference is that rather than warping out as soon as you see a radar blip, you warp out as soon as you hear a *BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP*

Any long ranged attack becomes impossible, the minute you fire a missile the enemy will warp out because there is no way to stop them, jump inhibitors are not long ranged.

Missiles are a sniper weapon that shines in Alpha Damage and Range and sucks in every other aspect, adding the ability for tiny turrets to mitigate missile damage is more than enough, missiles do not need another nerf, this suggestion seeks to take away one of the only two advantages missiles have left over other weapons.

And also worth mentioning that missiles are not invisible! You can still see a missile if it is coming towards you, so you already have an early warning system!

First off, your knowledge of convection cooling is painful. In order for something to become affected by the background temperature, it requires air or some other fluid to transfer the heat away[1]. Space is famously devoid of air [Citation Needed]. The only other ways that heat can transfer are conduction[2] and thermal radiation[3][4]. Neither of these would work quickly in space. However thermal radiation would give of enough heat to be picked up by sensors. Also, Based on their appearance I assume that missiles are just Anti-Matter shells encased in plasma Which would be very hot and easy to pick up on any sensor system more advanced than a sundial (depending on how much light the missiles give off, the fluctuations of a sundial might be able to tell you some info on the missile too.)

But that's besides the point. We are talking about being able to tell if a ship is locked on, not if missiles are fired. The latter would actually breack some some mechanics. Think about it this way. In space, sensors are loud (not literally). If you start doing whatever advanced probing firing a lock-on missile requires, it makes sense that an accurate enough sensor shield would be able to pick up your radar/lidar arrays firing off.

Unless, for some reason you had a radar jammer that could blend you in with the cosmic background radiation. If only schema added those to the game, how revolutionary that would be. If the sniping ship wished to remain hidden, it might invest in a bit of camouflage. Think of it this way: The sniping ship has thrown a camouflage radar jamming jacket on in order to hide in that tall grass of background radiation. The camouflage might be a bit more bulky(power draw) than a french WWI uniform, but the benefits of silence outway the downfalls. Any other ship should invest in an inhibitor of quick enough draw to stop the ship before it jumps out


Citations:
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convection
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_conduction
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_radiation
[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooling

 

[Jasper1991]

First off, your knowledge of convection cooling is painful. In order for something to become affected by the background temperature, it requires air or some other fluid to transfer the heat away[1]. Space is famously devoid of air [Citation Needed]. The only other ways that heat can transfer are conduction[2] and thermal radiation[3][4]. Neither of these would work quickly in space. However thermal radiation would give of enough heat to be picked up by sensors. Also, Based on their appearance I assume that missiles are just Anti-Matter shells encased in plasma Which would be very hot and easy to pick up on any sensor system more advanced than a sundial (depending on how much light the missiles give off, the fluctuations of a sundial might be able to tell you some info on the missile too.)

But that's besides the point. We are talking about being able to tell if a ship is locked on, not if missiles are fired. The latter would actually breack some some mechanics. Think about it this way. In space, sensors are loud (not literally). If you start doing whatever advanced probing firing a lock-on missile requires, it makes sense that an accurate enough sensor shield would be able to pick up your radar/lidar arrays firing off.

Unless, for some reason you had a radar jammer that could blend you in with the cosmic background radiation. If only schema added those to the game, how revolutionary that would be. If the sniping ship wished to remain hidden, it might invest in a bit of camouflage. Think of it this way: The sniping ship has thrown a camouflage radar jamming jacket on in order to hide in that tall grass of background radiation. The camouflage might be a bit more bulky(power draw) than a french WWI uniform, but the benefits of silence outway the downfalls. Any other ship should invest in an inhibitor of quick enough draw to stop the ship before it jumps out


Citations:
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convection
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_conduction
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_radiation
[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooling

Regardless of how accurate something is to science (the devs have made it very clear that StarMade and realism should not be used in the same sentence) this suggestion still has serious drawbacks with no real benefits other than "its cool"

The drawbacks of implementing a warning system for missiles is basically a massive nerf to long ranged missile combat.

 

[TheGT]

Regardless of how accurate something is to science (the devs have made it very clear that StarMade and realism should not be used in the same sentence) this suggestion still has serious drawbacks with no real benefits other than "its cool"

The drawbacks of implementing a warning system for missiles is basically a massive nerf to long ranged missile combat.

If you want to use long range, put a radar jammer on your ship, its not that hard

EDIT--
I was also just quoting science cuz you were

 

[Lukwan]

[doublepost=1480017574,1480017458][/doublepost]

Hey guess what I just also found out that you can already have an early warning system on your ship using an turret based enemy detector!

Well...when your ideas are not big...at least your text can be.

 

[Dire Venom]

Actually it would make MORE sense for missiles to be undetectable at longer ranges, ever heard of the Kh-101, Kh-102 or the CVS401 Perseus?

I just mentioned 3 stealth cruise missiles, low radar cross section and by the time you detect it the missile has already reached its target and detonated, the Kh-102 carries a nuclear warhead and the others carry more conventional warheads.

Keep in mind that these are cruise missiles, so they are bigger than missiles in StarMade and fly faster, StarMade missiles would be even less detectable because they would have a smaller radar cross section and are much slower, a StarMade missile tripping off any radar system is practically impossible.



So no, missile warning systems are a stupid idea, the most beneficial feature of missiles is range, otherwise they have drawbacks in almost every other aspect. By telling people that a missile attack is imminent, you kill any possibility for long range combat, even outside of stealth tactics.


In response to the "close range meta" if you are going into knife fighting range with a stealth ship then you may as well have no stealth and you may as well use a cannon or beam, because they are both more effective at close range then missiles, even before this proposed missile nerf.





If you want a missile defense system, then point defense turrets does the job fine, we do not need another missile nerf.​

As soon as one missile hits you will get the same response from the player, however 5 or so seconds latter.
I hardly see how it would make much of a difference, they won't know where you are or beable to fire at you within that time period.
I also fail to see how it nerfs missiles at all, it merly indicates that the player is under attack a few seconds before the missiles hit. There is nothing the player could do in that time frame which would make a difference except jam, but then again most level headed players would already be jammed when flying about or wouldn't be sticking about in one place long enough to be attacked.
At least close range you can prevent them jumping, where as long-range they can easily just jump out if you don't destroy them with your first volley.

 

[Comradecolonel]

I don't even see how this effects ambush tactics. Couldn't just use a cannon damage beam to strike from long range? Considering missiles can track you no matter where you go I don't see how this is is drawback. Knowing that the enemy has a lock wouldn't give you that much of an escape window.

 

[godmars]

would it be overkill to get an indicator showing what direction the missile is coming from, ala freespace?

 

[Groovrider]

Forgive me if someone hasn't mentioned this already: What if you get a lock-on warning after the missile is in the air? The logic being before the missile is fire you're targeting the enemy but once fired the missile guidance system takes over and the enemy can see that. Its a small difference but it still allows players to remain stealthed/hidden and locked on. Still kinda kills some combat though.

 

[Jasper1991]

As soon as one missile hits you will get the same response from the player, however 5 or so seconds latter.
I hardly see how it would make much of a difference, they won't know where you are or beable to fire at you within that time period.
I also fail to see how it nerfs missiles at all, it merly indicates that the player is under attack a few seconds before the missiles hit. There is nothing the player could do in that time frame which would make a difference except jam, but then again most level headed players would already be jammed when flying about or wouldn't be sticking about in one place long enough to be attacked.
At least close range you can prevent them jumping, where as long-range they can easily just jump out if you don't destroy them with your first volley.

In case you did not read the suggestion, the OP wants to have you alerted when someone gets a missile lock on them, not when a missile is close to them, at standard missile engagement ranges this gives them about 20-35 seconds to react, not 5 and its even longer for missile pulse weapons.

20-35 seconds is more than enough time to simply activate a jump drive and warp out, kinda like how back in the old days literally everyone would jump out as soon as they saw a radar blip appear, everyone complained and jump inhibitors were introduced.

This suggestion seeks to bring back the "Im gonna jump out at the fist sign on danger" method, that method literally killed StarMade PvP until Inhibitors were activated.

I don't even see how this effects ambush tactics. Couldn't just use a cannon damage beam to strike from long range? Considering missiles can track you no matter where you go I don't see how this is is drawback. Knowing that the enemy has a lock wouldn't give you that much of an escape window.

Your knowledge of StarMade missile mechanics is painful to read, if you break contact with an incoming missile (something that will always happen if this missile nerf is implemented) by jumping out then a missile will not track you.

And saying "just use another weapon" is the weakest argument to justify a nerf I have ever seen in the history of nerf threads for MMOs, RPGs and now PvP shipbuiling games. You may as well be saying "This weapon will be underpowered if this happens but that is ok because you can just use some other weapon"

If you want to use long range, put a radar jammer on your ship, its not that hard

EDIT--
I was also just quoting science cuz you were

Based on the text of the original poster the OP wants you to be alerted if you are locked onto by a missile period. a radar jammer will not make a difference, it will still give them plenty of time to jump out and never be seen again.

 

[Comradecolonel]

Your knowledge of StarMade missile mechanics is painful to read, if you break contact with an incoming missile (something that will always happen if this missile nerf is implemented) by jumping out then a missile will not track you.

So your saying that with a missile lock warning people will always get away now? I don't understand how this is a nerf to missiles. Its not like you need to manually target missiles with AMS. If you don't have jump inhibitor when you are ambushing someone then I don't know what to tell you.

 

[Levarith]

Jasper1991 if you are ambushing someone then why not just fire dumbfire at them? if they are moving that erratically that you can't line up a shot from behind them then you're ambush has already failed more than likely. Then there would be no missile warning at all.

Alternatively, could you not tie the missile detection to scanners then compare size of sscanner antenna to size of missile? that way an active logic pulse sensor would be the only way to detect an incoming missile.

 

[Spartan-228]

Jasper1991 I can understand your arguments to a degree, but I feel that your fondness of missiles is clouding your reasoning. Even after others have submitted excellent ideas on how this could be implemented and still maintain the stealth alpha attack of missiles, you ignore them and continue to advocate against this idea with no real ground to stand on.

Actually it would make MORE sense for missiles to be undetectable at longer ranges, ever heard of the Kh-101, Kh-102 or the CVS401 Perseus?

I just mentioned 3 stealth cruise missiles, low radar cross section and by the time you detect it the missile has already reached its target and detonated, the Kh-102 carries a nuclear warhead and the others carry more conventional warheads.

Keep in mind that these are cruise missiles, so they are bigger than missiles in StarMade and fly faster, StarMade missiles would be even less detectable because they would have a smaller radar cross section and are much slower, a StarMade missile tripping off any radar system is practically impossible.

This argument is invalid because you are talking about long rang missiles that are fired at relatively stationary targets and thus have their targets location already programmed in, are remote controlled, or are guided in by a marking laser.
In aerial combat a fighter pilot can have two systems to help him against missiles the Radar warning receiver (RWR), and Missile approach warning system (MAW).
Without getting to technical, the RWR detects active targeting systems, ie radar. This system will warn a pilot that he is being painted by an enemy radar and will also warn him if a radar guided missile is fallowing him. However this system can not detect passive targeting systems, ie IR/heat seekers. That is where the MAW comes in, but is is no wheres as effective as the RWR. There are three types of MAW systems one uses pulse-Doppler radar, the other uses infrared sensors, and the other uses ultraviolet system. The radar system as had been mentioned can be defeated by missiles with low radar cross section, IR systems are easily set off by non threats, and ultraviolet requires the missile to have an active rocket motor.

If you wanted an early warning system, its pretty easy to get a turret based enemy detector and change it to detect missiles, so this suggestion is pretty much already in the game.

And how many pilots want to put a PD turret right in front of their camera?

Based on the text of the original poster the OP wants you to be alerted if you are locked onto by a missile period. a radar jammer will not make a difference, it will still give them plenty of time to jump out and never be seen again.

That is true, but I am not adverse to other peoples ideas on the subject. That is the hole point of the suggestions section of the forms, some one comes up with an idea posts it and every one ells adds their thought on how to make it better.
As for the idea, that a radar jammer could allow you to lock on to an enemy without them being alerted. I like it and wish I had thought of it when I had originally posted this idea.

 

[TheGT]

In case you did not read the suggestion, the OP wants to have you alerted when someone gets a missile lock on them, not when a missile is close to them, at standard missile engagement ranges this gives them about 20-35 seconds to react, not 5 and its even longer for missile pulse weapons.

20-35 seconds is more than enough time to simply activate a jump drive and warp out, kinda like how back in the old days literally everyone would jump out as soon as they saw a radar blip appear, everyone complained and jump inhibitors were introduced.

This suggestion seeks to bring back the "Im gonna jump out at the fist sign on danger" method, that method literally killed StarMade PvP until Inhibitors were activated.



Your knowledge of StarMade missile mechanics is painful to read, if you break contact with an incoming missile (something that will always happen if this missile nerf is implemented) by jumping out then a missile will not track you.

And saying "just use another weapon" is the weakest argument to justify a nerf I have ever seen in the history of nerf threads for MMOs, RPGs and now PvP shipbuiling games. You may as well be saying "This weapon will be underpowered if this happens but that is ok because you can just use some other weapon"



Based on the text of the original poster the OP wants you to be alerted if you are locked onto by a missile period. a radar jammer will not make a difference, it will still give them plenty of time to jump out and never be seen again.

Sorry for not being complete, I was suggesting that a radar jammer could be used as a method to stop the alerts. Or in the terms of real life combat: like a camouflage jacket or one of these things. I feel like this would give the best of both worlds, effectively allowing the attacker to decide whether or not he/she wished remain hidden with only a slight detriment to the latter. Most ships already carry a jammer anyways, and the ones that don't are generally quite large and not expected to be part of the lithe sniper type.

 

[CaptainTaz]

Regardless of how accurate something is to science (the devs have made it very clear that StarMade and realism should not be used in the same sentence) this suggestion still has serious drawbacks with no real benefits other than "its cool"

The drawbacks of implementing a warning system for missiles is basically a massive nerf to long ranged missile combat.

I just want to point out that in this very thread you were referencing not only IRL cruise missiles, but also heat diffusion in space... The latter being a fact of science and the first being "realism..."


... As far as the actual topic goes, yes please to this idea. Being able to detect "sniper missiles" is very welcome to a person like me who would otherwise be nuked quite easily seeing as I like tiny ships...

 

[Jasper1991]

Jasper1991 I can understand your arguments to a degree, but I feel that your fondness of missiles is clouding your reasoning. Even after others have submitted excellent ideas on how this could be implemented and still maintain the stealth alpha attack of missiles, you ignore them and continue to advocate against this idea with no real ground to stand on.

And how many pilots want to put a PD turret right in front of their camera?


That is true, but I am not adverse to other peoples ideas on the subject. That is the hole point of the suggestions section of the forms, some one comes up with an idea posts it and every one ells adds their thought on how to make it better.
As for the idea, that a radar jammer could allow you to lock on to an enemy without them being alerted. I like it and wish I had thought of it when I had originally posted this idea.

Firstly Ad hominem - Wikipedia my judgement is not automaticly clouded because I disagree with your suggestion

Secondly, your knowledge of enemy detector logic is making me loose braincells, you clearly do not know how they work and that they can be configured to do the role of what you want added (probably why you made this suggestion in the first place), TL:DR you get a small turret and set the bobby ai to shoot whatever you want detected (e.g missiles) combine with a logic magic and every time the turret shoots at whatever the bobby ai detects it can emit a logic signal, this logic signal can for example, light up a light block in your cockpit or activate pretty much anything you can activate with logic.

So missile warning systems are already in the game making this entire thread and discussion pointless, instead of asking Schine to remove yet another reason to use the logic blocks people have been begging for improvements for, maybe just learn how to make an enemy detector, heck I am pretty sure there is even one already on CC...



Also as I have stated within my comments several times this is not just a problem for stealth ambushes, this is a problem for long ranged combat in general, until someone comes up with a solution that does not make long ranged combat as a whole much less desirable then I will continue to oppose this nerf.

 

[Comradecolonel]

My problem is that I don't see how this is a nerf. The warning doesn't allow you to deploy countermeasures that would benefit from an increased time window. You also make the point that it is already a feature in the game. If you can already detect missiles from long range then how would this nerf anything.

 

[Levarith]

Comradecolonel haha exactly. That's what I'm not getting. The fact that the sound is already in the game says that it was a planned feature, and it doesn't actually nerf anything... so far his big whine is that it hurts things but then he goes out and disproves his entire point...

 

[Lukwan]

Firstly

First, firstly ...is not a word.

Ad hominem - Wikipedia my judgement is not automaticly clouded because I disagree with your suggestion

If you are going to start quoting logical fallacies don't use a straw-man argument to do it. If your judgement comes off cloudy, stop arguing emotionally and make good points. I could care less about who agrees with whom.

Secondly

Secondly: also...not a word.

Also as I have stated within my comments several times this is not just a problem for stealth ambushes, this is a problem for long ranged combat in general, until someone comes up with a solution that does not make long ranged combat as a whole much less desirable then I will continue to oppose this nerf.

So... you are saying that having a missile-lock alarm will ruin all long range combat?

"The missiles coming my way are not the problem...it's that damn alarm beeping. I'm outa here!"