Logic Gatling gun vs Cannon/cannon

[-Moose-]

Hey folks. I've been thinking about making a logic controlled Gatling gun using delay blocks to fire one shot after another. Or perhaps to alternate shots. Has anyone done any experiments on this? How does it hold up against a single cannon/cannon?

 

[Dvaren]

Cannon Canon with multiple outputs is still superior unless you require unattended firing

 

[EricBlank]

Your logic cannon can have a 1:0:1 main:secondary:effect ratio, meaning no space is wasted on the secondary (which doesn't contribute to your damage, only modifies the other functions. Damage per second depends on the main and effect, and a varying reload time affects damage per projectile, but systems with the same number of blocks between main and effect combined will have the same potential damage per second.), and each can use a different effect, say combining ion and punch-through. However, you're using 0.5 second steps, limiting shots per second to 2, as opposed to ten, assuming each computer system has only one output. The space conserved by not having to use a secondary increases with the size of the system. Each system only counts as having one output, so you also avoid the penalty for multiple outputs that way.

You can also use cannon-beam gatling guns, which means you can set up a long-range high-refire cannon system on a logic clock. You'd need more than just the two computers, though. I've been experimenting with these a little bit. Of course, now you're wasting a bit more space per system to incorporate both the secondary computer and blocks, and splitting it into multiple computers.

The biggest advantage of the logic clock is by far being able to turn that system on and let it do its work while using your other weapons. Not having to juggle back and forth on your hotbar to select the weapon that's ready to fire at this second. You can use it to automate a cannon shotgun system too, which becomes a (really) shitty AMS screen that fires constantly.

The cannon-cannon setup makes aiming a breeze, since you just point and click on your screen rather than having to align your entire vessel. Strictly speaking, although it wastes space having to have that secondary effect to achieve the same shots-per-second on top of matching the firepower from the effect and main weapon group, if the entire system can only be a few blocks you're putting those blocks towards firepower rather than logic, meaning in a very small vessel those logic clocks become the bigger waste of space than the secondary effect. You get nothing out of using a logic clock on a fighter.

The logic clock becomes completely useless in that manner for AI. AI can fire all their weapons simultaneously without having to navigate a hotbar, they're terrible at actually pointing at what they're shooting at so they need that ability to deviate from the direction the barrel is pointing, and you'd have to start and stop the clock for them, unless you want to design some crazy contraption to turn them on and off automatically.

 

[NeonSturm]

Recently I have had some success with logic-based weapon choices at short range.

Shield drain support-modules only drains power when there is shield to drain.
The power drain can be measured by not triggering push-effects through a detector gate or area trigger.

This means that your logic knows whether your target has shields as long as your target is hit by the shield-drain support weapon.

 

[Jaaskinal]

Logic is pretty difficult to aim. It requires a pretty high fire rate to be remotely useful, and a lot of visibility. I don't think your idea is practical in any sense.

I have a decent bit of experience with it. Here's the first sort of thing I did with it (don't have a gif of my own, but someone used what I showed them, and recorded a gif of it, so that works)

then there's this sort of stuff that I've done;

 

[Sven_The_Slayer]

Your logic cannon can have a 1:0:1 main:secondary:effect ratio, meaning no space is wasted on the secondary (which doesn't contribute to your damage, only modifies the other functions. Damage per second depends on the main and effect, and a varying reload time affects damage per projectile, but systems with the same number of blocks between main and effect combined will have the same potential damage per second.), and each can use a different effect, say combining ion and punch-through. However, you're using 0.5 second steps, limiting shots per second to 2, as opposed to ten, assuming each computer system has only one output. The space conserved by not having to use a secondary increases with the size of the system. Each system only counts as having one output, so you also avoid the penalty for multiple outputs that way.

This is 100% false. Every module added to every weapon system adds 5 DPS (10DPS for missiles) to that weapon system. When you are adding slaves you are adding damage. Do not trust the weapons tab that information is not correct. The weapon system was balanced with one thing in mind, all weapons systems are equal. Every weapon system (single output) should deal 5 dps and consume 10E for every module 1 damage. In it's most basic form a cannon + cannon weapon will fire 10 times a second and deal 1 damage per shot.

Using normal weapons are going to be your best bet in most cases as they don't just fire indiscriminately. Gatling guns certainly have a cool factor but you do not gain anything over standard cannon cannon. In fact other than setting up a cannon beam gun you don't gain anything but you lose the ability to focus fire, aim easily, and setting up a gatling gun that fires even close to 10 times a second is going to be very difficult

 

[NeonSturm]

Your logic cannon can have a 1:0:1 main:secondary:effect ratio, meaning no space is wasted on the secondary (which doesn't contribute to your damage, only modifies the other functions. Damage per second depends on the main and effect, and a varying reload time affects damage per projectile, but systems with the same number of blocks between main and effect combined will have the same potential damage per second.

You need secondaries!

In a 10–0–0, you do 50*1*1 = 50 DPS.
In a 5–5–0, you do 25*2*1 = 50 DPS.
In a 5–0–5, you do 25*1*2 = 50 DPS.
In a 3–3–3, you do 15*2*2 = 60 DPS with 1 block less.​

Additionally:

Ion multiplies shield damage by 3 and hull damage by 0
Punch multiplies hull damage by 3 and shield damage by 0
But Ion/Punch is only 1/3 of a weapon system, which means that you need 4/3 for both options.

Means: you can get 300% DPS for 133% blocks if you switch slaves during combat.
OR
You can get 100% + 100% DPS for 2/3 weapon size and 2/3 power consumption as long as you use only the right choice.​

 

[EricBlank]

Oh, I see. I haven't tested it in forever, I've been working with that since the last time I did so.

Well, that makes it less useful, yeah. Still good for long range beam cannons.

 

[Sven_The_Slayer]

You need secondaries!

In a 10–0–0, you do 10x DPS.
In a 5–5–0, you do 10x DPS.
In a 5–0–5, you do 10x DPS.
In a 3–3–3, you do 12x DPS with 1 block less.​

The effects of secondaries and tertiaries is based on the 10x or 12x DPS.

10-0-0 would deal 50DPS, (100 if it's a missile)
5-5-0 would deal 50DPS, (100 if it's a missile)
5-0-5 would deal 50DPS, (100 if it's a missile)
3-3-3 would deal 45DPS, (90 if it's a missile)

Missiles have 2x DPS due to the fact that in most situations half the explosive power can be lost to space.

Also different tertiary will change the damage output such as pierce does 2x physical and 0x shield, with ion being the opposite. Over drive triples your damage but multiplies your power consumption by 6
[doublepost=1472863662,1472863442][/doublepost]

Oh, I see. I haven't tested it in forever, I've been working with that since the last time I did so.

Well, that makes it less useful, yeah. Still good for long range beam cannons.

I was on the tester team a while back, I have many spreadsheets where I test every weapon combination and record the actual in game damage values

 

[NeonSturm]

3-3-3 would deal 45DPS, (90 if it's a missile)

Really?
I have tested it some time ago and the result was that 100% secondary and tertiary both multiplies primary DPS by (100+100)%

I have edited my post to make it more clear, can you review it? I also added ion+punch 3 min after I accidentally submitted before finishing my post (while switching editors wysiwyg/plaintext to debug broken indent)

 

[alterintel]

Recently I have had some success with logic-based weapon choices at short range.

Shield drain support-modules only drains power when there is shield to drain.
The power drain can be measured by not triggering push-effects through a detector gate or area trigger.

This means that your logic knows whether your target has shields as long as your target is hit by the shield-drain support weapon.

Could you explain this further?
what exactly is the the detector gate or area trigger detecting? The ship you're shooting at? What if your target has enough Thrust to mass to resist a push-effect? I'm just having a hard time picturing in head what you're trying to say.

Thanks

 

[Jaaskinal]

Ion multiplies shield damage by 3 and hull damage by 0

Ion only doubles, IIRC.

 

[NeonSturm]

alterintel

Spoiler: Context quotes

Recently I have had some success with logic-based weapon choices at short range.

Shield drain support-modules only drains power when there is shield to drain.
The power drain can be measured by not triggering push-effects through a detector gate or area trigger.

This means that your logic knows whether your target has shields as long as your target is hit by the shield-drain support weapon.

Could you explain this further?
what exactly is the the detector gate or area trigger detecting? The ship you're shooting at? What if your target has enough Thrust to mass to resist a push-effect? I'm just having a hard time picturing in head what you're trying to say.

Step #1

When you fire a shield-drain at a ship, it only consumes power proportionally to the shield drained + a fixed base amount.
This means that the power spent is dependent on the targets shields.
​

Step #2

You can use the excess power if no shield is hit to trigger push-modules (now powered).
The push modules can push "an elevator" through a activation gate as long as you have power for the push.

Shield hit effects translate into a logic-signal.
​

Step #3

Use that logic signal to switch weapons from ion to punch on a different turret (wireless logic).​

[doublepost=1472865762,1472865435][/doublepost]

Ion only doubles, IIRC.

*joking* These stupid custom configs :D
But the power-drain per dps tripples? 200%, 600%? Or maybe I confused it with overdrive 300%.

Well, it doesn't matter. Point is that while 100% secondary/tertiary both doubles the primary (unless it got fixed), you get 4x DPS for 3x blocks total (=33%) as long as you distribute evenly.
This 33% extra dps * 50% extra when switching effect-slaves during combat (4/3 blocks for 200% damage = 200/133 = 50% extra)
133*150= 200% total.​

 

[Jaaskinal]

alterintel

Step #1

When you fire a shield-drain at a ship, it only consumes power proportionally to the shield drained + a fixed base amount.
This means that the power spent is dependent on the targets shields.
​

Step #2

You can use the excess power if no shield is hit to trigger push-modules (now powered).
The push modules can push "an elevator" through a activation gate as long as you have power for the push.

Shield hit effects translate into a logic-signal.
​

Step #3

Use that logic signal to switch weapons from ion to punch on a different turret (wireless logic).​

[doublepost=1472865762,1472865435][/doublepost]

*joking* These stupid custom configs :D
But the power-drain per dps tripples? 200%, 600%? Or maybe I confused it with overdrive 300%.

Well, it doesn't matter. Point is that while 100% secondary/tertiary both doubles the primary (unless it got fixed), you get 4x DPS for 3x blocks total (=33%) as long as you distribute evenly.
This 33% extra dps * 50% extra when switching effect-slaves during combat (4/3 blocks for 200% damage = 200/133 = 50% extra)
133*150= 200% total.​

Power drain is based on the base weapon size for everything except overdrive

 

[alterintel]

alterintel

Step #1

When you fire a shield-drain at a ship, it only consumes power proportionally to the shield drained + a fixed base amount.
This means that the power spent is dependent on the targets shields.
​

Step #2

You can use the excess power if no shield is hit to trigger push-modules (now powered).
The push modules can push "an elevator" through a activation gate as long as you have power for the push.

Shield hit effects translate into a logic-signal.
​

Step #3

Use that logic signal to switch weapons from ion to punch on a different turret (wireless logic).​

Ah, now I think I get it :D
But this would only be effective on an entity that can't move in relation to the free floating entity which is firing the shield drain weapon. Right?
So in other words you can't just put this on a docked entity because otherwise the push or pull effect wouldn't have any effect.

 

[-Moose-]

well /I/ figured out how to make flashing lights today... Pretty stoked about that.

Back to logic weapons, sounds like a resounding "ehhhhhh" alright then.

 

[NeonSturm]

So in other words you can't just put this on a docked entity because otherwise the push or pull effect wouldn't have any effect.

It would probably glitch out of the parent enitty.
I used

1. power-supply/drain to transfer excess energy to a non-moving dock.
2. power-use by a small-chunk but power-hungry system
3. power-use by a large-chunk push pulse living from excess energy from the non-hitting shield-drain beam.

 

[Winterhome]

You guys must be talking about a different kind of "DPS" than I'm used to.

Every weapon except for missiles does 10 DPS per module block before modifiers. Missiles do 20DPS per block but lose 50% (or thereabouts) to space.

Ion = 2x damage to shields, 0% damage to blocks.

It's not complicated.

 

[StormWing0]

Anyone cook up a Missile/Pulse/??? combo for a Gatling gun? Would be funny to see the kind of carnage any of the pulse combos could cause.

 

[AtraUnam]

logic gatlings only really work as missile drills if you want something thats actually viable. However if you were very good at aiming you could build a gun to fire cannon/beam rounds (much higher velocity) at the same rate as cannon/cannon which would be a distinct advantage.