Public min-maxing should stop somewhere at 80..95%

[NeonSturm]

Edit #1:
This post aims at the "freedom of discovery/improvement" which every user has before being exposed to the ideas of min-maxers.

If you show the very best example possible nobody can have personal secrets or the feeling to have archived something.

• You are stealing the opportunity from them.

Update#1 Public min-maxing should stop somewhere at 80..95%

It explains what min-maxing is (reducing variables until there is one best thing).
It sets the 100% mark.​

If you show something public, always make sure it has 80..90% maximum efficiency (See Update#1 for what 100% is).

• 30*20*50 = 30'000
• 31*21*52 = 33'852 → 1.05^3 = 1.13
  
• 33*22*55 = 39'930 → 1.1^3 = 1.33

As you see, you can easily get 100% with just 5% more size in every dimension!
Or even compensate for 26.4% loss by adding 10% size (1.33 of 0.8 = 1.064).

​

How much does a 5% or 10% bigger ship hurt?

As long as the efficiency-deficits are not multiplying each other, they can also be overcome by specialisation (using the best range-setting against a targeted station or ion-burst cannons, using warheads or drone-spam or evasion…)

​

I think that leaving others the opportunity to improve (or getting a better build from some faction) is worth more than min-maxing everything.

It is also more relaxing, friendlier to RP players and adds more strategy behind building racer-ships.

​

Finally - have you ever tried to customize min-maxed ships?

Every block you change requires you to change 5 other blocks or worse.
The best builds are those which also allow customization and easy access to systems.

Or at least care about visibility of systems.
I'd like to see logic only taking up as much space as a flattened wedge/block.

Heard enough? only when you stop min-maxing ​

.
I'd like server-rules which allow "hard min-maxing" only for personal fighter-ships (crew cabin, etc for one person would take 5% or more of the ship space) or for ships which dock as a pair in a bigger one.

Edit#1 after Update#1: If you leave a 8x4x8 (cube16+) or a 16x8x16 (cube32+) area for customization and reserve weight/volume for it, it is not hardcore-min-maxing anymore.

 

[Anubis Evo]

If you show the very best example possible nobody can have personal secrets or the feeling to have archived something.

• You are stealing the opportunity from them.

If you show something public, always make sure it has 80..90% maximum efficiency.

• 30*20*50 = 30'000
• 31*21*52 = 33'852 → 1.05^3 = 1.13
  
• 33*22*55 = 39'930 → 1.1^3 = 1.33

As you see, you can easily get 100% with just 5% more size in every dimension!
Or even compensate for 26.4% loss by adding 10% size (1.33 of 0.8 = 1.064).

​

How much does a 5% or 10% bigger ship hurt?

As long as the efficiency-deficits are not multiplying each other, they can also be overcome by specialisation (using the best range-setting against a targeted station or ion-burst cannons, using warheads or drone-spam or evasion…)

​

I think that leaving others the opportunity to improve (or getting a better build from some faction) is worth more than min-maxing everything.

It is also more relaxing, friendlier to RP players and adds more strategy behind building racer-ships.

​

Finally - have you ever tried to customize min-maxed ships?

Every block you change requires you to change 5 other blocks or worse.
The best builds are those which also allow customization and easy access to systems.

Or at least care about visibility of systems.
I'd like to see logic only taking up as much space as a flattened wedge/block.

Heard enough? only when you stop min-maxing ​

This makes me hurt. I just apply power appropriately while following the laws that govern the reactors until I hit the soft cap.

 

[NeonSturm]

This makes me hurt. I just apply power appropriately while following the laws that govern the reactors until I hit the soft cap.

As long as these reactors are not squished into jump drives and shield blocks, it's ok.

Hard min-maxing also does not limit a 23^3 reactor cube as these are more or less standard.
Hard min-maxing would be a ship especially designed around a 3D reactor cross for each soft-cap and dock them on reactor entities so that they fill similar space.

 

[Anubis Evo]

As long as these reactors are not squished into jump drives and shield blocks, it's ok.

Hard min-maxing also does not limit a 23^3 reactor cube as these are more or less standard.
Hard min-maxing would be a ship especially designed around a 3D reactor cross for each soft-cap and dock them on reactor entities so that they fill similar space.

Oh okay. When It comes to docked power, I don't think that should be a part of starmade. It causes catastrophic lag when things like that get destroyed/undocked inside a moving ship. I'd just like to see either a larger power cap or an alternative power gen source. Though the latter would most likely still require the former to make a difference.

I'd even take a power gen block that functioned like a warhead when hit if they payoff was great enough. Following the "Risk is worth the reward" I think it would add an interesting depth to power generation AND combat, where you'd need to actually protect your reactors and they wouldn't have to consume large portions of ships like some do now. (mostly in smaller ships)

 

[Top 4ce]

Maybe the min-max is done with the intent to be min-maxed, like the creator intended?

I don't see why there should be a rule about it. If you wanted it another way, ask the creator or do it yourself.

Peace,
- Someone who doesn't min-max

 

[NeonSturm]

New Maybe the min-max is done with the intent to be min-maxed, like the creator intended?

Then they should be flagged as hardcore-min-maxed and forbidden on servers which do not like that.

It's not about creating, but about publishing in such a way that you can use it without any effort on any server which allows uploads - even if it isn't yours.

You could save the original creator's username in the entity and compare it with the uploader,

but i still don't know how to flag min-maxed ships as such.​

 

[Az14el]

I wouldn't worry about highly min/maxed ships on CC
...maybe messy complicated logic & some examples of really good stuff, but thats great, everyone has the parts, but they're all in seperate boxes sent to seperate countries, and the instructions are in Swedish, and for an entirely different product.

It's like a hidden mini game finding all the strong shit people hide in amongst their pointless/dubious dinglebobs (those are usually pretty awesome in their own right too though). You just keep learning new things, but CC only has some of the parts of course.

What you do see is a massive difference in functional quality, I can absolutely agree there, but it goes deeper (and also sploits but im not counting those).

 

[Lecic]

The entire OP of this thread is the ramblings of a mad man. People can put whatever they want on CC, and there's no way to enforce an "anti-min/max" rule.

 

[GRHayes]

If you show the very best example possible nobody can have personal secrets or the feeling to have archived something.

• You are stealing the opportunity from them.

If you show something public, always make sure it has 80..90% maximum efficiency.

Yada Yada Yada ...

So what you are saying I shouldn't post stuff like the highest power supply efficiency is 898 blocks in a strait line or 897 if you make an L or such.

Or that I shouldn't have posted the Power Formula for missile combinations like I did here.
Some info on missiles

I guess that means I really shouldn't put out the software I was planning to for calculating all the damage and power and systems.
OR put up a website that does that for people either.

As for publishing maxed ships.
There is no such thing as a maxed ship. While you can make one with a tuned as hell power system and weapons. Someone can always always make one bigger.

right now the only limit to size is the ungroup bug. If they would please please get that fixed then I would be happy.

 

[NeonSturm]

Lecic is really creative when it comes to shitting my posts wherever possible instead of constructive criticism.
I know you have good sides too, but right now you look like a little child again.​

Ofc everyone can put whatever he likes on CC or publish your formulas.

Its a religion.
Like "Are you christian? No, I am atheist."

But it's ok that you are christian,
because Religion is for those who don't know better and Wisdom for those who do not believe.
Even while I am atheist, I respect the wisdom collected in religion books.
​

Well, you can be whatever you want, but you won't encourage creative thinking with it.​

The power-formulas, you can publish the information, but someone else still has to build with it.

Design a turret which looks pretty or doesn't increase ship dimensions …
Design power-supply for it …
You did not publish something feature-complete.
​

If someone provides a whole fleet for evil pirates or TG, it also helps all players on a server.

But pirates might not have any cargo space or whatever you like it to have.
The TG is weakly equipped for combat where peoples are min-maxing most.
They are designed to look pretty and "pretty" is not min-maxed in everyone's opinion.​

 

[Crashmaster]

So folks who publish their min-maxing results for everyone's benefit are hurting the feelings of plebs? Modifying someone else's great ship is too frustrating and not satisfying enough for people who don't know what they are doing?

Fuck their feelings, it's someone else's content and anyone who feels entitled to being able to improve upon it without at least equivalent skill and knowledge instead of learning from it has no place in reality.

Why don't we regress a step further and purge the academics, politically minded, and wealthy from the dock?

The free, unhampered exchange of ideas and scientific conclusions is necessary for the sound development of science, as it is in all spheres of cultural life. (Albert Einstein, 1952)

well duh.

 

[NeonSturm]

The free, unhampered exchange of ideas and scientific conclusions is necessary for the sound development of science, as it is in all spheres of cultural life. (Albert Einstein, 1952)

ideas and conclusions =/= executions of them.

You share ideas, you share conclusions, but the products produced from them have to be applied by everyone self.
StarMade is a progressing system and giving the "final stage of progress" right away is "cheating".
​

Also, from what you say, you have to protest against Schema not giving away SM's code-base for others to improve on :p
It's community content locked away from users!

I also do that in my signature.
I am pro-selling HQ artwork and some newly released content and such and using SM as a free platform to sell these things.

But if I buy SM now, I will still have a game which I am not allowed to de-compile (or even better grabbing the source with commends and documentation) and create modding support for.
I am not even allowed to grab the SM code from before 3 years, even if circuit plans only have 3 years protection in my country.​

 

[Crashmaster]

Rules about what you can make public =/= free, unhampered

The products are a means of communication.

You didn't adress why anyone should be entitled to be hidden from the fact that they are not as good as they think they are at the cost of the smarter peoples' freedoms.

 

[NeonSturm]

Rules about what you can make public =/= free, unhampered

Guidelines, Suggestions
Reasoned wisdom.
You should never block any idea, but the "free market" is not free anymore if for example 1 single large faction dominates it with a huge furnace for metal-shaping which can work with the materials of 80% of the market and needs 9 days to shut down.

The products are a means of communication.

You didn't adress why anyone should be entitled to be hidden from the fact that they are not as good as they think they are at the cost of the smarter peoples' freedoms.

someone is hidden from a fact? A fact cannot see.
I guess you mean: "hidden from the public" / "does not appear as good as they are".
This guy which is hidden / "does not appear as good" now has smarter peoples than him which are punished for him being not good?

You really have to re-write that sentence - it contains logic mismatches (from some perspectives).

But let's assume you mean that I entitle (or encourage to entitle) "peoples which pays a cost in their freedom" because "they do not appear as smart as they are.".

Assume, every human has the right for freedom equally.

Further assume, one guy publishes the "ultimate weapon which requires 6 weeks to upload initially" and everyone is forced to use it "because it is 100x as strong per block when spawned as others" … what would weight more?

• his freedom to publish this weapon
• or the freedom of all others which have to use his ultimate creation?

Or if you prefer a more real-life example:
Which freedom has more weight:

• The freedom of parents to choose what their kids see
• The freedom of a porno-star to publish his sexual parts on a poster next to a school?

You can't rightfully limit freedom, except when you are forced to protect freedom of others.


I raised the question if

1. the freedom to publish is greater than the freedom to release min-maxed "copy-paste-use" things which do not require any further creativity
   or
2. the freedom of peoples to find the solution themselves is greater.

If someone asks you to share what you think is best, you can pm it to him or invite him to your faction.

If min-maxes things aren't importable on servers which choose the "freedom to discover and build better things than these provided", it's ok.

 

[Tunk]

meh let folks post optimised stuff.
If someone wants to use it they will, and in all likely hood be happier for it as it frees them up for something else.
If they don't, well thats their decision.

Reading your posts give me eye cancer, please add TL;DR or be more concise instead of rambling.

 

[NeonSturm]

Reading your posts give me eye cancer, please add TL;DR or be more concise instead of rambling.

I don't try to ramble, I give 2 examples so that no-one picks on which example i choose to set my point.
It's really hard to communicate without getting anyone misunderstanding me and question something which is irrelevant but provides a negative bias about what meaning I try to transfer.

 

[GRHayes]

I don't try to ramble, I give 2 examples so that no-one picks on which example i choose to set my point.
It's really hard to communicate without getting anyone misunderstanding me and question something which is irrelevant but provides a negative bias about what meaning I try to transfer.

The thing about this game it is always changing. People are always stuck behind a learning curve.
Which is why I tend to put the information out on stuff I figure out. It doesn't hurt.
People learn from it. Just when you think you created the best thing someone else comes up with a better idea or the game changes.
Until this game is out of testing phase and the major bugs are resolved it is all temporary. So no point at all getting upset over what someone put out.

 

[Crashmaster]

Guidelines, Suggestions
Reasoned wisdom.

If it's not a rule there's no point, suggestions carry no weight either and reasoned wisdom is an opinionated and subjective claim.

You should never block any idea, but the "free market" is not free anymore if for example 1 single large faction dominates it with a huge furnace for metal-shaping which can work with the materials of 80% of the market and needs 9 days to shut down.

^ That was rambling.

someone is hidden from a fact? A fact cannot see.
I guess you mean: "hidden from the public" / "does not appear as good as they are".

You guess wrong and comprehend worse or you are being purposely obtuse. I won't explain it to you because it would steal your freedom to be ignorant.

This guy which is hidden / "does not appear as good" now has smarter peoples than him which are punished for him being not good?

You really have to re-write that sentence - it contains logic missmatches.

But let's assume you mean that I entitle (or encourage to entitle) "peoples which pays a cost in their freedom" because "they do not appear as smart as they are.".

You shouldn't give sentence structure advise sandwiched between crap like that if you want it to be taken seriously.

wacky examples

Nobody is ever forced to uses anyone else's stuff in StarMade.

New players' are not kids that need someone making choices for them.

I raised the question if

1. the freedom to publish is greater than the freedom to release min-maxed "copy-paste-use" things which do not require any further creativity
   or
2. the freedom of peoples to find the solution themselves is greater.

I could point out semantic errors in what you wrote but I can also not derail your point with my ignorance and figure out what you are trying to say with a bit of work and I say freedom of speech is greater then the freedom to be ignorant in any place that matters.

 

[Pacific_Jim]

As a counter point: No, people should make what they want public.

 

[Batavium]

In a SandBox game there is no Up, Down, Left or Right.

Server owners can set a frame work / rules on how things play out on their server.

But the base game is just loose sand with out any kind of framework, border or safety net around it.

Role Play exists in the mind of the player not in the game. Leave that to the server owners if they think it's needed. Plenty of pure Role Play servers out there.

Should you want to mix with non Role Play Players on a Vanilla StarMade server. Then the base game applies also to you. People don't have to go out of there way so you can Role Play. No Up, Down, Left or Right.

If you use a Home Base and keep your ships docked. With a few turrets as defence. Then there shouldn't be any problem with other players bringing there death machines over for a visit. You can even build while docked to the Home Base. They may try to poke a little but there is always the ignore option. People get bored fast if you give them the cold shoulder. Always have a full decloaker docked to the Home Base. With a Ships Core + Scan Computer + Scan Module + Rail Docker you can decloak any invisible agressive poker.