Mining and Asteroid Changes

[Reviire]

As resource scarcity is planned, to give players an incentive to fight each other, I've been drafting up some ideas to expand on upon it, to give the game more of a strategic element, which I think would benefit the game. Tell me what you think, don't be afraid to say it's shit.

First thing, would be the change to asteroids. Instead of what we have currently, they would be changed to be uncommon, and quite large. With how large they will be, and for reasons I will explain later, they will be anchored. The vanilla resource yields per block would also receive a large boost in yields, up to around 20-40x. Asteroids being much less common would increase the chances that two players will want the same asteroid. I'll get to the yield change next.

The way mining works in general needs to be changed. Rather than the resource being given when the block is destroyed, when being mined, resources will be transferred to the entity mining it over time. i.e, with a mining strength of 1, and block hp of 10, 10% of the blocks resource yield would be given per second. Ofcourse, this all seems like it would be stupid. But, the last thing, resource blocks and rock blocks would have their mining times drastically increased. Overall, resource gain per hour should sit around what it is now. With this in mind, to give asteroids more variety and some more "worth" than others, values for various things would be random, with extreme values on the low and high end getting rarer and rarer (Although config settings will let you make low yield or high yield asteroids more common). The values would be resource yield, resource types, mining time modifier, size, maybe some others.

As said earlier, the idea is the make asteroids and resources a strategic element. By making them less common, there's a higher chance for two players to find themselves wanting for one asteroid. The increase in resource yields and size are to compensate for the fact there are now less asteroids, and the large increase of mining times are so asteroids are now a persistent, although finite, resource. Rather than being consumed in seconds, they would be consumed in hours, days, or weeks, depending on asteroid size and type. When a large, high yield asteroid is found, players may want to fight for it, and they will have ample time to fight for it. On that note, asteroids would also be tankier, so small scale battles won't utterly ruin it.

Now that I've got the reworks to mining and asteroids out of the way, lets move onto salvage beams. They're convenient, they're easy. That's great, but the overall goal here is to have mining take lots of time, and mining locations being more persistent, while still having the same resources/hour. Salvage beams will only mine when placed on stations, or turrets connected to stations. So while you'll still be able to salvage the wrecks of vanquished foes, mining will take a completely new direction.

Mining stations. That's what this is for, mining stations. Salvage turrets will automatically mine asteroids while connected to a station, slowly mining out blocks over some extended period of time. Refining on site, maybe other things. Now, to prevent abuse, it will not be possible to set an asteroid as a home base, unless a server admin allows it.

Please tell me what you think, the idea is open to discussion.

 

[aytoms29]

I think this is a very good idea.

 

[jstenholt]

Salt incoming: read at your own risk.

So, the gist of your suggestion is to make mining more of a chore? I have to say, this entire suggestion is frighteningly short-sighted. But the most pressing issue is, where did you hear resources were going to be made more rare? If anything, the devs appear to be making mining more intuitive and balanced by ensuring certain resources appear in relatively predictable places based on temperature. The issue is not making resources more likely to be fought over, but encouraging factions to expand further to collect more of them. Cutting down on the overall amount of available resources just makes even more of the universe even less useful.

Your changes to mining specifically make zero sense, you say the rate per hour will remain relatively similar to what it is now, but give no real reasons for changing it. And then you go on to contradict your own suggestion, but I'll get into that later.

I'm not sure if you've tried this, but minerals are already drained very slowly, when using one salvager. The fact of the matter is that no matter how tedious you make the actual process of hitting minerals with a beam, somebody will always build a salvage ship capable of obliterating an entire asteroid in a fraction of a second, no matter how large. Speaking of ships, that brings me to the last point.

Restricting mining to stations is, I'm sorry, laughable. The idea of relegating an entire subset of shipbuilding into garbage collecting scavengers, picking the meat off of derelict ships is outrageously awful, for a large number of reasons.

Firstly, new players are not going to have the wherewithal to find one of your obnoxiously rare super-asteroids, build a station, create mining turrets for that station, and then defend that station. Secondly, how are they even supposed to collect the resources to do so if they can't bloody mine, and once they somehow manage to set up a mining operation, how are you going to keep them interested in the game since your suggestion also includes making mining take lots of time while simultaneously having a similar resource per hour measurement that we have today?

In case you missed this bit of mental gymnastics.

but the overall goal here is to have mining take lots of time

while still having the same resources/hour

What? What is that? I do not understand.

This post gave me a headache and literally everything except for tankier, larger asteroids would need to be deleted in order to make this incoherent nonsense somewhat resemble good game design.

/salt

 

[Reviire]

I gathered that from this. Planned - Uneven Resource Distribution and Density: Getting the Wheels Turning the thread is marked as planned. I was providing my own ideas with this in mind.

Well I'm not sure how you're not understanding, but the rate of resources per hour will remain the same, but it will take much longer to deplete each individual block. Understand? We eat giant asteroids and even planets in seconds, it's stupid.

I'm not sure where you got obnoxiously rare from, I said less common. A new player could easily find some asteroid and set up shop, it's not like they're marked on the map or anything. Mine by hand, setup a mining laser/drill, spend a moment thinking. These are easy things to do.

The reason for restricting mining to stations and making asteroids less common, is so asteroids are a strategic resource, rather than something you just fly by and take some resources from. You put effort into it if you want something from it, and other players can take it from you because it will now last for a long time. It gives players an incentive to fight. It gives players a target when they want to fight you.

All this has already been explained. Please read next time.

 

[jstenholt]

Well I'm not sure how you're not understanding, but the rate of resources per hour will remain the same, but it will take much longer to deplete each individual block. Understand? We eat giant asteroids and even planets in seconds, it's stupid.

That is not what you said in the OP. Use more concise language. And eating asteroids and planets in seconds conceptually cool, and also a mainstay of science fiction. Because this is a spaceship sandbox, why restrict players so?

I'm not sure where you got obnoxiously rare from, I said less common. A new player could easily find some asteroid and set up shop, it's not like they're marked on the map or anything. Mine by hand, setup a mining laser/drill, spend a moment thinking. These are easy things to do.

Imagine playing Runescape, or any RPG. You set out on your first adventures, looking for resources. You come upon a mine where you can find basic resources, but it's a PVP area. How do you get the resources? Do you have the time and energy to pick at them by hand, fashion a makeshift pick, set up a camp, and then hack away at a big ball of minerals for an hour? You do? Great! Get started! Oh wait, you're fucking dead because there's no PVP protection, you don't have the resources to defend your camp, resources are hotbeds of activity, and people are generally assholes who have no problem blowing away a defenseless miner because it's fun. GG, close browser, uninstall client, you're never going to overcome the frustration of that game and transcend the learning curve.

That's what you're suggesting for Starmade.

The reason for restricting mining to stations and making asteroids less common, is so asteroids are a strategic resource, rather than something you just fly by and take some resources from. You put effort into it if you want something from it, and other players can take it from you because it will now last for a long time. It gives players an incentive to fight. It gives players a target when they want to fight you.

As I said in my rebuttal to your OP, it you're not solving the issue of fly-by mining. All this does is empower factions that have the ability to organize. It would take less than a day to create the first blueprint that would annihilate one of your asteroids in minutes. Faction moves in, throws down a massive mining station, dismantles the station and moves on. The only thing that keeps new server entries competitive is that mining is quick, easy, and convenient. You cut down on the literal number of asteroids, and that just means factions will eat them up and leave nothing for the little guys.

All this has already been explained. Please read next time.

I have very clearly read your OP. In fact, I read it five times. It's bad.

 

[Reviire]

PVP protection is by server, if you don't like PVP, then don't play on a PVP enabled server. I for one enjoy the constant risks, I like having to fight. You can already be killed for no reason by players, I'm not sure why you think this is any different, except this is fighting for a reason, rather than sitting around doing absolutely nothing, and looking like a dick when you kill someone.

The issue can be solved through discussion, that is why I posted it on a discussion forum. To be discussed, it's obviously not a fully fleshed out idea.

 

[jstenholt]

it's obviously not a fully fleshed out idea.

You think?

That you believe I am against PVP indicates that you clearly haven't read a word I've typed, so yeah, I'm prepared for you to ignore my last counterargument. Your suggestions all add up to leaving new players exposed for long periods of time. I am staunchly in favor of PVP and the danger that comes with it. But standing around waiting an hour for your mining platform to gather sufficient resources, knowing that at any second somebody in an Isanth could obliterate your station, kill you, and leave you with nothing but the prospect of starting the whole process over is not intense, it is not atmospheric, it is bad game design.

 

[Reviire]

You think?

That you believe I am against PVP indicates that you clearly haven't read a word I've typed, so yeah, I'm prepared for you to ignore my last counterargument. Your suggestions all add up to leaving new players exposed for long periods of time. I am staunchly in favor of PVP and the danger that comes with it. But standing around waiting an hour for your mining platform to gather sufficient resources, knowing that at any second somebody in an Isanth could obliterate your station, kill you, and leave you with nothing but the prospect of starting the whole process over is not intense, it is not atmospheric, it is bad game design.

You're going over the exact same issues that already can happen in the game, do you think that players are somehow immune from being killed in their mining ships? New players are already exposed, they are always exposed. You are exposed if you don't want to sit in your homebase for the entire game. You will be exposed regardless. Spend a moment to think.

I believe you are against pvp because you're against the game being dangerous. It's not here to hold your hand, be prepared for a learning curve, be prepared for danger. People need a reason to fight, the game needs more strategic elements, instead of everything you'd ever want being everywhere.

Maybe we're different kinds of people, I prefer a game to be punishing, I feel accomplished when I finish my goals. There's nothing fun about being able to do anything you want without any challenge. But I can understand wanting it to be easy.

 

[jstenholt]

There is a very clear difference between a mining ship that can collect resources on the fly (and jump away on a second's notice) and a STATIONARY platform which can't run away and that no new player will be able to defend. THAT is the point I am trying to make. You need to cut the ultra-defensiveness, take a few thousand steps back, and try to understand the difference between tensely challenging and frustratingly punishing.

Plus, PVP is not just about combat, it is about trade, diplomacy, and saavy. Having more reasons to get people to fight is great, but not everybody wants to be forced to fight. It's a sandbox game, not a milsim. Different playstyles are viable.

 

[Madman198237]

Wow. Pointless argument here. This suggestion has, I'd guess, a 0% chance of being implemented.
Mining relegated to stations?!?!?!?!!?!?! WHAT?!?!!?!?

It costs, at present, if I recall correctly, read it carefully: One million credits for one station. Where in your suggestion do you account for that? Where is a noob going to get 1 million credits?

jstenholt raises many viable objections: You're ruining the ability of new players to play the game by restricting them to using immobile, defenseless, obvious, vulnerable stations. The first time a player mines an asteroid, they have NOTHING. They do not have the resources to build turrets or the battleships required to defend their new resource find from all the trolls and actual players who want to get resources too. You just positively, absolutely, irrevocably destroyed new players' ability to get into a running server.

Mining ships are important, valuable, and this suggestion will NEVER be implemented.....because of mining fleets. As you may recall, we just got those. They're based on ships mining things. Not stations, ships.

Also, making asteroids bigger isn't realistic. Most asteroids are smaller that the ones in-game. Very few are larger. I'd get behind increased diversity, but not a loss of the small ones.

Scarcity, yes. Limitations basis resources, NO! You must be able to build a functioning fleet, no matter how many super-factions are running around.

TL; DR: You should have read it, it's not that long.

 

[Lecic]

No.

The kind of thing you are asking for would be better filled by something like the ever popular Mantle Extractors suggestion, which would turn planets, something in desperate need of some real use for factions, into something useful, while keeping asteroids available for the short term resource boosts new players need to get on their feet.

 

[Sgtwisky]

Well. I can't say I agree with this suggestion.

If I understand the goals you want this suggestion to accomplish they are the following:
1. Reduce the lag caused by mining asteroids.
2. Give a reason for people to fight over resources.

As for #1, The issue isn't that blocks are disappearing fast, its that they keep recording their block data when not fully harvested. (See How to make efficient salvage beams and lower lag ) I am not sure that your method would reduce the lag caused by mining. Not to say it wouldn't just that I am not confident it would. While the post I linked does in fact work currently to reduce mining lag. Ive redesigned my mining drones and they lag much less now.

For #2, I feel like using asteroids for this purpose might be the wrong way to go about it.

We know a few things about the future plans which lead me to believe the above statement.

1. Its likely we may have the Uneven Resource Distribution, which would mean you may need to expand your territory to have good access to the resources you want.

2. The Dev's have stated plans to allow the re-spawn of asteroids with Faction Points.

3. The Dev's have expressed that they want reasons for players to not blowup/mine every planet. And they have stated that there will be reasons to keep them, to expand your territory and fight. Many people like the idea of using planets for passive resource gathering. Which is similar to your idea.

These three things make me think that asteroids are the resource you harvest when you need resources "Now" while planets will be something you take and guard for the resources "Latter". IMO you need both types of resources in this game.

 

[Xskyth]

-.-
-.-
-.-
angry much?
i get that some of you hate this idea. thats cool. hate it. but if you are going to have so much to say, why not state some alternatives? you know, make it CONSTRUCTIVE criticism, not destructive/disruptive. Reviire said that the idea was open for discussion. so discuss. dont like the idea? then what would make the idea work for you?

i also get that there ARE problems with certain aspects. only mining from stations? yeah, no. But being able to dispatch mining drones from your station might be a good idea.

as far as the asteroids, i think what Reviire is trying to say is:
1. if the asteroids are not going to respawn, then increase the amount of total resources that each asteroid has
2. instead of mining blocks per second have the mining beams mine resources per second.
for ease lets say each block currently has 60 resources and your miner takes a minute to mine said block.
current system: after one minute the block disappears and 60 resources are deposited into your storage.
alternative system: every second of mining you get one resource deposited into your storage until the 60 resources run out, then the block disappears. possible showing signs of deterioration, like when hull blocks get damaged. and if hitpoint based, asteroid blocks that are damaged by weapons fire would yield fewer resources
example: 100% hp= 60 resources 50% hp= 30 resources etc...

 

[Lecic]

but if you are going to have so much to say, why not state some alternatives?

The kind of thing you are asking for would be better filled by something like the ever popular Mantle Extractors suggestion, which would turn planets, something in desperate need of some real use for factions, into something useful, while keeping asteroids available for the short term resource boosts new players need to get on their feet.

You mean like this?

 

[Xskyth]

You mean like this?

yes :D

 

[Madman198237]

I'll have you know that I offered plenty of constructive criticism. In other places.
Also, I did mention how to improve this suggestion. (Don't make it)
And I agreed with the idea of improving the economy....just in other ways that do not involve this suggestion at all.

 

[Az14el]

The hell happened here since last night?

Look,
1) Automation makes things easier, not harder, que? the initial investment of effort followed by simple BP spawning afterwards is nothing, mining manually takes longer, like anything else.

2) There is currently no practical reason to expand, no reason to contest resources, and no reason to expand infrastructure in your territory. If you like the current structure we have then your opinion is objectively awful (or maybe you're just a primarily creative player chiming in on something you may think you understand, but don't). I'm sorry.

Revi it's a good idea, not entirely original since elements have been covered in other suggestions like i said, the only things I have an issue with is the large changes to asteroids and the limitations on salvage beams. The new asteroid type would be better off as a rare & valuable alternative, not a replacement, and ship based mining should be included so as to not throw fleet mining out the window. And those are my only contentions with the original concept.

As for the other suggestions that accomplish a similar thing, those are also good!
Fuck me right?

 

[aytoms29]

Wow this took off quickly