Read by Council Weapon Range Block Scaling

[Cudgeon Kurosaki]

tl;dr, Increase weapon range with weapons block count. Please.

As of right now, a small ship has as much attack range as a large ship. Even though a small ship has far fewer blocks, it can engage at the same distance as large ship along with a speed advantage as well as being harder to hit. A system should be in place to let larger ships have more range than smaller ships due to having more weapon blocks.

A big ship engages another big ship from the same distance a small ship engages another: 500-1000 meters. It becomes a hectic fight that looks like a battering contest, with neither of the big ships respecting the other's space. A big ship is a big target with more power and shields, but no range advantage and a speed disadvantage. Big ships are incapable of engaging from a long distance as large ships should. Even though I am fearful of a cannon that travels through space for all of eternity, there could always be a maximum range limit for weapons. It also means that only large turrets can engage at a long distance while smaller ones are better at shooting nearby fighters. Certainly, an internal defense turret should not have the same range as an external one.

The mathematical formula for the range of a ship should either be k*√(n blocks). k = range constant in sectors. n = total number of weapon blocks. The square root may also be a cube root. I had originally conceptualized using a cube root because the ships expand in 3 directions: x, y, and z planes. It was then I had realized that this model does not take into account the speed of the smaller ships (but even those have a maximum speed).

The exact model for range increase is up for debate, but it probably needs to change eventually. Hope this helps!

 

[AtraUnam]

We had this before and there were... issues. Also theres no logical reason for big ship weapons to have longer range.

 

[MeRobo]

A weapon with higher range which needs more blocks then a weapon with lower range?
Beam secondary allready exists.

 

[Lecic]

No. Weapons are almost completely worthless beyond 2 sectors. Secondly, it used to be like this, and we'd have people setting up uber long range murder turrets that could snipe people at spawn from 8 sectors away. It's a bad and irredeemable idea and should never be re-implemented.

Also, as for your concerns about people "attacking from long range with a maneuverable ship," for starters, they're likely much smaller and have less weapons in the first place, and no matter how fast they are, are going to have a hard time dodging missile/beam, and are not going to be outrunning cannon/beam and beam/beam (assuming the server has high turret accuracy).

 

[Madman198237]

Actually, this is a perfectly logical and realistic means of increasing range. A weapon like a beam or our energy-based cannons can travel further because it carries more energy and is therefore still damaging at larger ranges. A larger missile has more fuel and can generally go further than a smaller missile, and with a larger payload to boot. A pulse....well....it's the pulse. So, yeah, not sure it matters.

 

[Cudgeon Kurosaki]

Also theres no logical reason for big ship weapons to have longer range.

Large ships shouldn't be just 2km away from each other to fight. The only reason the sector long sniper were a problem back then was because we had damage, reload, range, and projectile speed scaling at the same time for the cannons. It's absolute chaos when two large ships are right next to each other with little fighters sparsed between. It is very logical for more powerful ships with more powerful weapons to engage at a longer range. Real life snipers rifles, anti matter rifles, artillery, and nukes are all examples of heavier systems with great range.

No. Weapons are almost completely worthless beyond 2 sectors. Secondly, it used to be like this, and we'd have people setting up uber long range murder turrets that could snipe people at spawn from 8 sectors away.

The real reason that weapons are useless beyond 2 sectors is because aim resets when traveling between sectors (Should be fixed eventually). I was worried about multi-sector snipers within the game, but I felt like some of the weapons needed at least some kind of range buff. Plus, multi-sector snipers are easily defeated by radar jammers. I'm surprised that people don't use scout ships more to avoid or identify these threats. There already is a limit on the detection of others ships in the navigation menu, why not put a detection range limit for turrets? Alternatively, there can be a system where damage decreases over a distance.

no matter how fast they are, are going to have a hard time dodging missile/beam,

Easily defeated by radar jammers. It is very easy for small ships to avoid turret fire, far easier than people seem to understand.

I don't like dealing with multi sector snipers, but if someone actually manages to pour enough resources into it, it should be possible. And drain massive amounts of power to the point that it is not worth the investment. The point of the root models is to make it difficult and expensive to make actual significant increases in range. Also, pulse has no range, and there is no other method of increasing its range for bigger ships (yes, this posts partially originates from the hope that pulse will be viable some day).

 

[AtraUnam]

Large ships shouldn't be just 2km away from each other to fight. The only reason the sector long sniper were a problem back then was because we had damage, reload, range, and projectile speed scaling at the same time for the cannons. It's absolute chaos when two large ships are right next to each other with little fighters sparsed between. It is very logical for more powerful ships with more powerful weapons to engage at a longer range. Real life snipers rifles, anti material rifles, artillery, and nukes are all examples of heavier systems with great range..

Larger weapons have greater range inside an atmosphere because air resistance causes a dropoff. in space there is no air resitance and no resulting dropoff.

 

[Cudgeon Kurosaki]

Larger weapons have greater range inside an atmosphere because air resistance causes a dropoff. in space there is no air resitance and no resulting dropoff.

Energy from cannons could dissipate somehow, or the projectile begins to collapse from the inside. Missiles would have the same explosive power, and accelerate until they run out of fuel and travel indefinitely in space (let's not do that). Beams could lose their focus over a distance. Pulse weapons fields destabilize. These are all just theoretical explanations for weapons that don't have any complete real life parallels at the moment. I also remember that they planned on having larger projectile sizes for stronger projectiles.

 

[AtraUnam]

These are all just theoretical explanations for weapons that don't have any complete real life parallels at the moment.

You can't use real life examples to argue that bigger weapons should have longer range while simultaniously admitting that there is zero reason for some weapons to have longer or shorter ranges.

 

[MeRobo]

Energy from cannons could dissipate somehow, or the projectile begins to collapse from the inside. Missiles would have the same explosive power, and accelerate until they run out of fuel and travel indefinitely in space (let's not do that). Beams could lose their focus over a distance. Pulse weapons fields destabilize.

Or we just keep the system we have and don't give an increasingly effective beam secondary to bigger weapons.

 

[Cudgeon Kurosaki]

You can't use real life examples to argue that bigger weapons should have longer range while simultaniously admitting that there is zero reason for some weapons to have longer or shorter ranges.

Of course I can, the real life weapons have real life applications and fundamentals of real life combat always apply to video games. Mainly because human fighting each other in video games would use similar tactics to fighting other people in video games (i.e. Starcraft 1 and 2, Warcraft, other strategy games). There is just no way to explain as to why the weapons have longer or shorter ranges because of the limitations of human knowledge at the moment. The idea of humans flying came long before the airplane, and the math behind flying before the actual flying. Just as the dream of shooting cannons at my enemies from multiple sectors away exists before I actually get to do it.

 

[AtraUnam]

Of course I can, the real life weapons have real life applications and fundamentals of real life combat always apply to video games. Mainly because human fighting each other in video games would use similar tactics to fighting other people in video games (i.e. Starcraft 1 and 2, Warcraft, other strategy games). There is just no way to explain as to why the weapons have longer or shorter ranges because of the limitations of human knowledge at the moment. The idea of humans flying came long before the airplane, and the math behind flying before the actual flying. Just as the dream of shooting cannons at my enemies from multiple sectors away exists before I actually get to do it.

If I were too fire a handgun in space the bullet would keep going until the heat death of the universe if nothing ever got in its way. I can't conceive of any reason for a sci fi spaceship weapon to have worse range than a modern day handgun, or for that matter a thrown rock.

 

[Cudgeon Kurosaki]

Or we just keep the system we have and don't give an increasingly effective beam secondary to bigger weapons.

The main way to prevent this is for people to actually use scouts ships with radar jamming. In real life, people have weapons that can shoot extremely far and accurately. But it is the human that becomes the limit, never the weapon. I can't shoot a steel plate from 600 yards or meters, but a robot can. I can't even see something that is 600 yards away without glasses.
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If I were too fire a handgun in space the bullet would keep going until the heat death of the universe if nothing ever got in its way. I can't conceive of any reason for a sci fi spaceship weapon to have worse range than a modern day handgun, or for that matter a thrown rock.

As of right now, cannons and laser beam do in fact have a shorter range than the weakest of handgun bullets. I can't even begin to explain that one. The cannons are probably more powerful and accurate than the handgun bullet anyhow.

 

[Madman198237]

If I were too fire a handgun in space the bullet would keep going until the heat death of the universe if nothing ever got in its way. I can't conceive of any reason for a sci fi spaceship weapon to have worse range than a modern day handgun, or for that matter a thrown rock.

Actually, space is not a complete vacuum, but has an extremely low concentration of particles. Your handgun bullet would eventually slow down, but it would take a long time for it to stop.


These weapons are all, except for the missiles which I will cover in a second, energy-based. Projected or directed energy dissipates rapidly, even in space, as the size of the particle/beam increases with distance.
By the way, Cudgeon, I am going to assume that you're not talking about effective range.
Because effective range for a handgun, any handgun, is far less than 100 meters.


The missiles would have a limited range because their electronics have a limited amount of time before they run out of power or freeze, disabling targeting in heatseeking or smart variants and disabling the detonator in all others, assuming that it's not a classic contact detonator...which it probably isn't.

 

[jayman38]

I think that, in order to avoid calculation-based lag when weapon systems are damaged, that the range addition should be a simple 1-meter increase per weapon block. So my idea of a change in this system is 1.5 sectors + (number of weapon blocks * 1 m), depending on the base weapon type (base weapon type determines the base range; cannons and beams might have a base range of 1 sector and missiles might have a range of 2). The difference in ranges will be reasonable, and not too OP. In short, the increased range would be barely enough to get the beam range past the outer edges of the larger ship's forward greebles.

With this calculation, a 3000-block cannon system will have a 3-km advantage over a tiny PD cannon turret, which can still hit from one side of a sector to the other side. I think that's reasonable for a game's weapon system.

One of the big reasons I avoid cube and square roots: multiplication is significantly more CPU intensive than addition and subtraction functions. CPU operations increase geometrically with x-root functions. And in the middle of battle, when weapon systems are being torn to pieces, you want that recalculation to be really small and quick.

 

[AtraUnam]

Actually, space is not a complete vacuum, but has an extremely low concentration of particles. Your handgun bullet would eventually slow down, but it would take a long time for it to stop.
These weapons are all, except for the missiles which I will cover in a second, energy-based..

Granted the handgun bullet would stop eventually but unless it goes through a nebula the universe might end before the bullet ever stops, also at no point in SM lore were cannons ever energy based.

 

[Madman198237]

Actually, that handgun bullet would stop sooner than you think....certainly in less time than it takes for the universe to reach a Big Freeze.....though a spontaneous rupture in space-time (Which is technically possible at any moment) or a Big Crunch could prevent it from stopping.


Actually, cannons are almost certainly energy based (Because otherwise we get into the awkward physics of how to turn antimatter into a projectile that will punch through like a cannon and not detonate like a missile....by the way, the cannon's projectiles are, at present, more than large enough to annihilate an entire ISD, assuming they are 100% antimatter.

 

[Cudgeon Kurosaki]

Because effective range for a handgun, any handgun, is far less than 100 meters.

Of course, unless someone happens to be a robot that calculates wind, changes in wind, atmospheric pressure. Or said person is Raven from That's So Raven (You can gaze into the future!).

 

[MeRobo]

The main way to prevent this is for people to actually use scouts ships with radar jamming.

How do scout ships effect the range of weapons being increased with increasing weapon size?

 

[Lecic]

The only reason the sector long sniper were a problem back then was because we had damage scaling at the same time for the cannons.

You do realize that larger cannons (and thus ones with longer range) did LESS damage per block than a small cannon in the old system, right?

The real reason that weapons are useless beyond 2 sectors is because aim resets when traveling between sectors (Should be fixed eventually). I was worried about multi-sector snipers within the game, but I felt like some of the weapons needed at least some kind of range buff. Plus, multi-sector snipers are easily defeated by radar jammers. I'm surprised that people don't use scout ships more to avoid or identify these threats. There already is a limit on the detection of others ships in the navigation menu, why not put a detection range limit for turrets? Alternatively, there can be a system where damage decreases over a distance.

No, weapons with ranges beyond 2 sectors are useless because the game only loads a 3x3x3 box of sectors around the sector. The only thing that can use weapons with a range beyond 2 sectors are turrets.

Also, an important note- NEWBIES DO NOT KNOW ABOUT RADAR JAMMERS.

Easily defeated by radar jammers. It is very easy for small ships to avoid turret fire, far easier than people seem to understand.

Two things.

First off, scanners exist.

Secondly, lock on missile turrets ignore jamming.