PvP Anti-Player Research

    StormWing0

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    Just trying to build up a good source of info on what to get setup for servers that have PvP setups. This is mostly about what kinds of building techniques to use that'd work very well against players. Also there are other things like what to do when dealing with players as opposed to the AI. Also any cheap anti-player builds you'd recommend to try and get up?

    So in any event what do you do for preparing to fight players?
     

    Reilly Reese

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    Just trying to build up a good source of info on what to get setup for servers that have PvP setups. This is mostly about what kinds of building techniques to use that'd work very well against players. Also there are other things like what to do when dealing with players as opposed to the AI. Also any cheap anti-player builds you'd recommend to try and get up?

    So in any event what do you do for preparing to fight players?
    I'd suggest Baffling your ships if you are going full functionality. I'd also try to only work in areas where aligning to the galactic north points in your bases direction. This allows you to quick turn around and escape.
     

    DrTarDIS

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    i yer gonna PvP, reliably surpass energy softcap, and use ALL of it.

    Ulta-high alpha damage with enough delta followup to keep the shields down and chew through the blocks.

    Momentum effect secondaries are good for controlling your opponent, momentum immunity is good to prevent being controlled.
     

    Keptick

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    I'd suggest Baffling your ships if you are going full functionality. I'd also try to only work in areas where aligning to the galactic north points in your bases direction. This allows you to quick turn around and escape.
    It's much better to simply start accelerating in whatever orientation you're already in to escape, since turning takes time and that's time you don't have (if you're already in trouble). Then you can just jump back to base.
     

    Reilly Reese

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    It's much better to simply start accelerating in whatever orientation you're already in to escape, since turning takes time and that's time you don't have (if you're already in trouble). Then you can just jump back to base.
    The idea comes from the common EvE tactic of auto-aligning.
     

    Az14el

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    Oh yeah, going beyond the power cap where possible is very useful, especially on big ships where you might rely a lot on docked reactors for power, which can be shot off your ship, making a decent uninterruptible baseline of spammed reactor power a life saver sometimes, still, depending on server block caps it might be far more efficient to just armor the hell out of your reactor docks, aka GenXNova.

    Speaking of armor, Ion weapons are still very much a thing so relying on shields as your primary form of defense is pretty old school, shields do a great job protecting your blocks of course, but an even mass ship with a decent dps Ion based weapon or even a number of overdrive drones of comparable total mass will make extremely quick work of shields without having to spend much on power. Armor is still i think a little underrated in the pvp scene, not sure whether this is due to laziness in updating ships, or just adherence to an outdated meta, but with properly armored ships the majority of the battle is fought under the HP system, not the shield system. A lowly armored ship that loses shields is destroyed very quickly. On the flipside I find full on armor tanking with minimal shields is far too expensive to upkeep, so a middle ground must be struck between shields, armor HP and efficient armor PLACEMENT. Which leads me to this one...

    I'd suggest Baffling your ships if you are going full functionality. I'd also try to only work in areas where aligning to the galactic north points in your bases direction. This allows you to quick turn around and escape.
    Baffled Armor has me... somewhat baffled, simple onion layering between system placements seems pretty damn effective but what I've seen of this technique is pretty intense :/

    Personally I've been spamming thin lines of slabs as a layer, occasionally criss crossing them over each other on thicker plates but not sure I'm even remotely on track, though it does seem to help (also not sure if just placebo there).

    i yer gonna PvP, reliably surpass energy softcap, and use ALL of it.

    Ulta-high alpha damage with enough delta followup to keep the shields down and chew through the blocks.

    Momentum effect secondaries are good for controlling your opponent, momentum immunity is good to prevent being controlled.
    God yes, momentum effects & passive explosive effect defense are seriously underrated, stop & pull can be pretty devastating on larger ships with little acceleration, and only a relatively small weapon system is required. 3x 1kx1kx1k block Cann-Beam-Pull makes a nice 2 sector tractor set up for ships up to 1mil blocks, couple it with an inhibitor and scale for mass and you have yourself a nice fly-trap, or a rapid fire stop cannon mounted on your ship can be extremely small dmg wise to be used effectively, and so can easily double as an onboard source of AMS via high numbers of outputs.

    That said I wouldn't use every ounce of power you have on your weapons, my rule of thumb is save 20-30% of your capacity/regen when designing your main weapons, this is to account for a few things, 1, server lag, 2, system HP damage/lost reactors/capacitors/weapon groups being split by penetrative weapons, 3, to give your turrets a chance to keep firing while you're using your onboard weapons.
     
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    FlyingDebris

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    I'd suggest you dedicate a good amount of your ship to armor, along with both punch and pierce passives at maximum possible capacity. If your ship has 50 block thick advanced plating, that's going to do a hell of a lot more for its cost than the same amount of shielding if done properly. Ships that have virtually no armor also have the nasty tendency of being completely and utterly shredded by everything the second their shields go down.

    If you want a proper balance, experiment with thick armor as well as shields, then figure out what works best for you. For the shielding, high regeneration is a useful, but often overlooked feature, in favor of a small amount of extra capacity.
     

    Az14el

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    Pretty sure those pierce/punch defensives cost barely anything as far as blocks per mass required too, 5% or less block to mass iirc, considering they can straight up turn 25% of system damage into armor damage, then reduce overall armor dmg taken by a further 25% that's pretty damn worth, that said, so far I've only used them on modular plating outside of my own build world, but i know ships like that take quite a ridiculous amount of shooting to actually harm in comparison to some cheap unarmored alpha dmg destroyer type, especially against the ever present alpha damage "meta" (Example of not giving 2 shits about strong missiles while on pure armor HP hurrdurr, [dat repair cost tho])

    Further layers of pretty meaningful defense could include good AMS (or PD if you want) systems (multiple outputs, 360x360 rotation, secondary long range weapon for better detection inbuilt, these perform VASTLY superior to low # output/limited range of movement/RF Cannon only set ups imo) & lock on/swarmer distractions (I use a bunch of simple cheap "ships", basically factioned cores, that share the same name as the ship & are undockable via an inner ship remote, only takes 3 blocks per docked distractor & the onboard logic/rails to dock them, in return for a huge annoyance to your opponent trying to lock onto you, and his indecisive swarmers/missile turrets.

    Modular plating really comes into its own when you're dropped to low shields as given a small amount of their own shielding they seem to "catch" shots that would otherwise impact & cut your own ships shields, with decent coverage you can become incredibly tanky during the period which your shields are low (low enough for rail objects to take damage) and your armor plates are still in good condition. Another type of non-docked 'Modular armor' that I've seen used pretty well is any type of forcefield/door/anything seperated from your ship by like 10-20 blocks on the front, severely limits the damage that those first few salvos of alpha damage can do so long as it's positioned to actually catch the missiles.

    If you wanna actually get your missiles reliably through all of this shit, use AMS Distractors (Logic fired or manual, dumbfire or heat seekers, whatevs) in combination with Vertical/Horizontal/Even Reverse fire lock on missiles. Having missiles "Drill" into a target, IE hitting in a tight cluster one behind the other is preferable to wide checkerboard spreads or a single large missile strike, as they will more easily bypass the armor and focus on the squishy insides that they can really tear up. Cannons & Beams while lack luster on pure block dmg compared to missiles, just ignore the armor/block penetration problems inherent in missiles and are perfect for the real wetwork of destroying a good ship, IE destroying all the rail, turret, computer & weapon groupings that make said ship strong in the first place, correct me if I'm wrong but this is what is meant by "Delta Damage", while it's generally a filler dmg role in Eve online, it's got a much more vital role in SM due to the hybrid 'Actual structure' + technical HP system involved here.
     

    AtraUnam

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    Put a shield shield reactor on your ship (even a really tiny one) and give it passive ion, that is all.
     
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    Exploiting the missile meta is key. A good mix of chaff countermeasures and AMS turrets will really cut down on the amount of punishment you take from missiles. You also need to put a lot of thought into the composition of missiles you throw at your enemy, overwhelming their AMS turrets and figuring out the best way to exploit the fleshy systems within.
     
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    I recently built a testbed AMS gunship. Utilizing a crappy design that I've reworked before, I simply mounted about 9 turrets on a 200 mass hull, and Madman (we build on an LAN server together) couldn't score more than 1 hit during this test while firing heatseekers off rapidly from one of our drone craft. He fired perhaps 30 rounds and exactly one got through, and this with the placement planning of "It looks good here, let's drop a turret axis. The turrets cover the ship nearly completely, and it looks ridiculous, but hey, if it stops missiles.... dang.

    On the subject of pushing missiles through to a target, your best bet will be something like my setup on my current heavy cruiser/small-ish battleship. It's got one gigantic main missile launcher tube dead center in the nose, surrounded by six auxiliary tubes 1 block wide, which are going to be linked to a second computer set for maximum heatseeker shotgun effect. AMS Turrets die. And Mad and I are also brainstorming potential vertical launch decoy shotguns for maximum effect. This BEFORE we deploy the 20 drones off the racks, of course. And after we do - screw it, they're expendable. Plus, they make for more targets in the area.... should keep AMS turrets swiveling like mad. But we're gonna need to test it on a fleet of those escort gunships I mentioned, see what happens. It won't be good for the gunship squad, because 1 hit off the main lock-on will result in an instantaneous overheat - by far.
     

    Edymnion

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    One handy trick is to admin load your ship into single player (without any defense turrets on it) and get in another test ship with missiles and start shooting it.

    Last I checked missiles (and ship AI in general) still targeted the areas with the most systems (after the whole doughnut ship thing), but that can be hard to figure out if you filled the ship pretty full. So get a ship with lock on missiles and start firing. Make a note of where they are hitting, and then reinforce those areas with heavier armor.

    Shield bugs (as I call them, ablative armor is another good term, basically docked sheets of armor with their own shields) are good as the AI likes to try and pick off exposed turrets, and every shot they waste on a shield bug when your main shields are down is a shot that isn't ripping into your hull.

    Layer your systems in the order in which you want them to be lost. For me, thats usually Armor, Shields, Thrusters, then Systems. If they have chewed through my armor, it means my shields are already down, they're not doing anything for me anymore directly, so let them soak up some damage before it can hit anything more important (this changed for me when they fixed blue asteroid spawning, before my shields were in the middle because they were so damned hard to come by). If they've chewed through my armor and the shields, next I want them wasting shots on my thrusters, because at that point running isn't really an option and clearly I haven't been dodging worth a damn. Then finally in the middle is my power, my main weapons, my jump drive, etc.

    Also, don't think you only have to armor the outside of your ship. You can armor up your interior systems as well. If you have reactors inside your ship (not just docked, but things like actual reactor boxes), wrap some armor around them inside the hull. And for PvP, it never hurts to give your docked reactors their own shields.

    Oh, and distribute your systems whenever you can. Especially on things like power, you want to make sure that if some of your lines are cut you have enough spread around that it doesn't cripple you in one lucky shot.
     
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    Star and I will get into true multiplayer soon, but we're using the theory side of things to get ourselves some decent ships.

    Our present large-ship build is focused around the front trio of weapons, one powerful ion cannon, and equally large and powerful cannon with pierce or punch-through (Whichever one increased armor damage, I can't remember) and that missile array. We're not yet decided on the exact setup for the missile, but it's either going to be heatseeking distractions controlled by a second player (So the lock-on main missile is close behind the distractions) or simply 6 weak missiles launched a couple dozen blocks in front of the powerful missile.

    The basic idea is that the drones draw turret fire, the cannons disable shields and then start picking off things like turrets, and then you use the missile to wrap up the rest.

    Also, it's going to have at least doubled standard armor everywhere, except for the bridge (Which will house things like computers and some power regen/capacitation) which has doubled advanced armor, and the front of the ship, where the cannons and missile are located, which will have 2-block thick standard and a layer of advanced for extra protection.


    The bulkheads idea (Extra armor inside the ship) is interesting, but that's a thing to study for later. Really, you want the shots stopped outside, not inside. Modern warships only have bulkheads to stop flooding. Also, to catch shrapnel.
     

    FlyingDebris

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    Add more external armor, and use advanced instead of standard.
     
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    Thanks for the response.

    Well, there goes maneuverability. But yeah, gonna have to switch to advanced. Probably going to end up with a layer or two of advanced beneath the current hull. I shudder to think of the time required to rebuild this entire cruiser (We've almost finished with the hull---it lacks systems and is still open to space around the engines, but other than that, it's a complete shell) just to add in layer after layer of advanced armor.
     

    DrTarDIS

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    every block of advanced needs about 2 blocks of basic on the same entity to pad-out enough armor hp for the advanced to be worth it. atleast IMHO. if yer gonna armor-tank at all, you need an armor pool to do that tanking. Especially important if you run pierce/punch passives.
     

    FlyingDebris

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    If I recall correctly, basic doesn't contribute to AHP and only adds to SHP. By damaging the basic, you lose SHP whereas hitting the advanced, you'll still lose SHP but the damage will be dissipated faster.
     

    DrTarDIS

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    If I recall correctly, basic doesn't contribute to AHP and only adds to SHP. By damaging the basic, you lose SHP whereas hitting the advanced, you'll still lose SHP but the damage will be dissipated faster.
    and IIRC basic adds AHP and SHP but has no armor value without a passive running. while advanced has a high armor value but insufficient AHP on it's own to support that value.

    When your AHP pool hits zero, the armor value of the block no longer means squat; it all goes to SHP. That's Why i said advanced needs basic to "back it up" by contributing to the POOL, even if the basic itself doesn't draw on that pool. This becomes especially apparent with full passive enhancement. Test it out. :)
     

    FlyingDebris

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    I have tested it out, and actually used basic as dampening on a few of my larger ships where space isn't as much of an issue. Issue is, having layers of basic will run your AHP out pretty quickly when you're getting shot at. So, you either need a lot of advanced or an absolutely insane amount of basic to make up for the damage caused.
     

    DrTarDIS

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    sounds like bad placement of your blocks to me. By test i mean make something small to shoot at and watch the bars and how damage gets done throw a 3*3 advanced plate in front of a core, shoot though it with yer astro gun, watch how advanced is basically high-mass standard after the pool runs out from the armor value diversion. before half the 3*3 is destroyed the pool will be gone, and remaining blocks are so much frozen butter. Repeat test wth a 2*3*3 patch of basic off to the side, and shoot throug a 3*3 plate of advanced at a core again. Much longer lasting pool.