Alpha Test Fuel

[MacThule]

This game is an alpha - lets test out fuel for a bit already. This is a no-brainer to at least test with the player base; even allow fuel be disabled at the server level.

1. Copy the cargo block as a fuel block.
2. Make generating power cost a microscopic amount of fuel.
3. Allow ships to refuel for credits at any shop or free on docking to a faction or personal station. For now.
   
4. Done - we can play-test it right there.

Over time you can require linkages, add a control computer, implement a system for fuel to be created in factories, etc, etc - so many options. To start though, all that's needed is to implement a super-efficient, single-block fuel system as server-optional so that the Hardcore, Survival, and PvP servers can test it out and see what happens!
[DOUBLEPOST=1453307498,1453306568][/DOUBLEPOST]If you want to get super crazy with it, just power ships directly from cargo on crystals (Bastyn, etc) or water - something that already requires a factory to create. Check to see if the ship has a single crystal in cargo - if so if can generate power. After 10 BILLION units of power have been generated, delete 1 unit of crystal, and check again. If no fuel, reduce power generation by 90%. Sorted.

 

[therimmer96]

I can agree with it being a server option that is disabled by default if its just a half implemented test to see how it goes, similar to collison damage and break off, but unless its going to stay, it should not be forced on people to refit their ships for a few updates just incase it gets removed.

 

[Shaker]

Surely by the time a race has this type of space travel, fuel wouldnt be an issue

 

[therimmer96]

Surely by the time a race has this type of space travel, fuel wouldnt be an issue

What powers our tech?

You also have to consider the fact that this doesn't just affect lore, it would add awesome gameplay. Look at the fuel rats in elite, people who spend their time going to rescue people who've run out of fuel.

 

[Shaker]

We can rescue players too, when their ship has been scuttled and they were lucky enough to exit the core

What do you mean by powers our tech?

 

[therimmer96]

We can rescue players too, when their ship has been scuttled and they were lucky enough to exit the core

If that is the case, most people hit respawn and bite the death penalty, the ship is already a loss. A fully functional but out of fuel ship is worth the rescue.

What do you mean by powers our tech?

What powers the technology on the ship? You said we are at an era where fuel isn't an issue, so where does the energy come from?

 

[kiraen]

Hunger for ships! :D

 

[Shaker]

Energy, solar/fusion/heat/bio

Think of what the human race has done in the last 100 years, steam engines to combustion to nuclear, solar, hell some dude made a bike that runs on water!


When the faction points have a purpose you will go for the rescue, also for the RP guys who dont want to cave on the respawn

 

[Pacific_Jim]

Tbh all fuel would really accomplish is people would spend longer mining/resource gathering and there's already enough of that.

 

[Malacodor]

Energy, solar/fusion/heat/bio

Think of what the human race has done in the last 100 years, steam engines to combustion to nuclear, solar, hell some dude made a bike that runs on water!

Water as fuel is fake. Unless the bike had a fusion reactor.

Tbh all fuel would really accomplish is people would spend longer mining/resource gathering and there's already enough of that.

I can see two solutions that make sense. One is fusion power using interstellar hydrogen which is collected by Bussard ramjets. Since this means virtually unlimited fuel it wouldn't change anything. Another one is any type of fuel which is produced by solar powered factories. These factories had to be built on stations close to stars. Once built they would produce fuel on their own, but had to be protected. Solar panels on ships could be allowed, but due to their inefficiency in 98% of all sectors they'd only be useful as an emergency measurement to enable the ship to reach the next fuel station.

Another question we should think about is WHEN to use fuel, only when accelerating or even when flying at a constant velocity. The latter would be highly unrealistic.

 

[Lecic]

Why don't YOU alpha test fuel yourself? Give some massive buffs to power caps and limit power regen to stations. Host a server with those settings or convince someone else to host it. See how it works.

 

[StormWing0]

lol the main issue with doing that to power is things eat through power too fast so you'd get stranded 9 times out of 10 no matter how high it was buffed. >_>

 

[Sgtwisky]

well Storm, you could buff capacity, as well as reduce the overall power everything else requires. Wouldn't be the greatest test, but it could provide some interesting results to report to the community.

Somewhat off topic, I have been playing with the idea of having a ship with basically only 1 shield recharge block. I would use a shield supply beam at its station dock to charge it up. And in doing so increase the space that would be used by the generator blocks. Not that the space saving is that big, just thought it was a novel idea.

The idea of using power as fuel reminds me of it.

 

[MacThule]

Tbh all fuel would really accomplish is people would spend longer mining/resource gathering and there's already enough of that.

Thank you for being honest. I disagree. Do you (honestly) know this? Empirically?

I believe it would impact many aspects of game play. Because it's not just about supply (i.e. mining and refining). In fact I feel that's more of an side effect, one which can be moderated. The real point is that it affects the efficiency of ships. Fuel is the reason that IRL people don't commute to work in RVs or backhoes even though the latter are more powerful, more comfortable, or useful for some job. It's the reason we drive tanks into battle, and not SUVs - even though tanks don't have cup-holders or DVD players. Different machines have different purposes, and fuel rewards specialization.

That affects design, play style, server loads, tactics, strategy... it encourages variety and discourages monoculture (single dominant ship types, single dominant weapon types, repetitive experience). It doesn't ONLY make people mine longer; and doesn't have to at all. The way I suggested it, it would actually take decorative items we end up making already and give them further value.

To directly address your concern about a fuel grind of some kind; you may have noticed that my suggestion (not firm guideline) was for a single unit of refined crystal to provide something along the lines of several minutes of power at high use. For an efficiently built ship. Certainly - noob ships could demand absurdly excessive fuel usage... as might gigantic showboats... but much of this comes down to a matter of the shipbuilder's level of expertise.
[DOUBLEPOST=1453354168,1453353587][/DOUBLEPOST]

Hunger for ships! :D

Start a thread about food if that's your thing. Please don't sidetrack my suggestion. I'm trying to have constructive discussion

 

[godmars]

Ships eat fuel. He isn't sidetracking your suggestion at all

 

[Master_Artificer]

I need to throw some of this ice somewhere that I get when mining, why not throw it out the back as thrust?

 

[Lecic]

lol the main issue with doing that to power is things eat through power too fast so you'd get stranded 9 times out of 10 no matter how high it was buffed. >_>

Hmmm... I wonder what that says about fuel if it wouldn't work this way?

But in all seriousness- my suggestion would work fine. Did you even bother to test it before making this post?

 

[NeonSturm]

If solar power requires flat designs (max 1 cell thickness from the orthogonal view of each boundary-box side), it would encourage sails.

But Sails are not very practical for ships if these need to fit through WarpGates. Now, some experienced builders will build expandable sails.
And then a pirate comes and uses your largely expanded boundary box and resulting lower rotation speed to his own advantage.

Water as fuel is fake. Unless the bike had a fusion reactor.

Maybe he did mean Hydrogen+Oxygen = Water.

I can see two solutions that make sense. One is fusion power using interstellar hydrogen which is collected by Bussard ramjets. Since this means virtually unlimited fuel it wouldn't change anything. Another one is any type of fuel which is produced by solar powered factories. These factories had to be built on stations close to stars. Once built they would produce fuel on their own, but had to be protected. Solar panels on ships could be allowed, but due to their inefficiency in 98% of all sectors they'd only be useful as an emergency measurement to enable the ship to reach the next fuel station.

Another question we should think about is WHEN to use fuel, only when accelerating or even when flying at a constant velocity. The latter would be highly unrealistic.

Bussard ramjets would make dog-fighting impossible.

But I am a fan of fuel generated at stations near the sun. It wouldn't be complete nonsense to build them on ships as they can also park near suns.
Your big super-mega-titan jumps from sun to sun, charging jump-drives while near it. Meanwhile your small ships go out to search for asteroids to mine or trade stations or even to sell/purchase fuel in that system.

well Storm, you could buff capacity, as well as reduce the overall power everything else requires. Wouldn't be the greatest test, but it could provide some interesting results to report to the community.

That would open the issue of abusive power-drain weapon usage.

 

[Sgtwisky]

true. I just meant as a way to test it with a small group of people. I do get it would be a very flawed way to test it though.

 

[MacThule]

Ships eat fuel. He isn't sidetracking your suggestion at all

It is completely unrelated EXCEPT in that both are consumable. The effects on game play are otherwise completely different. Crack cocaine, enriched uranium and chicken soup are all consumable as well - I've never seen anyone suggesting because they are all consumable they are essentially the same thing and have the same effects on the world. Because we have clear evidence to the contrary. The only reason anyone here is suggesting such an absurd thing bout vastly different consumables in this context is that no evidence exists to support or refute their claims, giving them carte blanche to SAY anything about it at all regardless of its merit or lack thereof. Actual testing will solve this debate, by the way.

Main point - my suggestion was not that we compare food to fuel; I suggested testing fuel to empirically evaluate its effects on game play through actual experience, rather than speculative theories. Please go start a thread detailing your theory about how/why (ship fuel = toon food) if establishing their equivalence is important to you. Such a theory is completely irrelevant to my suggestion that the in-game effects of fuel be actually tested.
[DOUBLEPOST=1453393417,1453393267][/DOUBLEPOST]

I need to throw some of this ice somewhere that I get when mining, why not throw it out the back as thrust?

Agreed. And if it happens to further reward excellence in shipbuilding - all the better :D
[DOUBLEPOST=1453393710][/DOUBLEPOST]

But I am a fan of fuel generated at stations near the sun. It wouldn't be complete nonsense to build them on ships as they can also park near suns.
Your big super-mega-titan jumps from sun to sun, charging jump-drives while near it. Meanwhile your small ships go out to search for asteroids to mine or trade stations or even to sell/purchase fuel in that system.

I like this. Personally, I'd be happy to eventually see a variety of fuel/power sources since each supports a different style of propulsion and would likely result in very different approaches to flying and design. If we could have the option of using solar, crystals, water, or ramjets/scoops or any combinations thereof, that'd be fantastic, IMO.

EDIT: grammar