Salvage Beams As Weapons

[Parameter]

What it boils down ti is what we've been saying, Salvagers salvage things but don't blow them up, weapons blow crap up but don't salvage them, if there was something that'd do both we'd all be using that to levels that would make you change you tune rather fast. The only reasonable combo of the two would be letting secondary weapons come in as effects when used on primary weapons in their combos. So you could do say Mps and make a Missile + Pulse + Salvager combo and salvage and nuke at the same time.

This is nonsensical. Let's say Schine unveils a new weapon that does 0.1 DPS per block at beam distance, but "steals" blocks it destroys and drops them in your inventory. Are you saying you would replace every weapon block, even missile blocks, with this new weapon? If you think that weapon would dominate the new meta, I think you're mistaken. If you do that, sanely-designed ships 1/10 your size will trash you with their normal weapons and then take the blocks you salvaged off them out of your storage for essentially a zero-loss.

If you're saying that you could build big enough that eventually ship scale would make your damage comparable to regular weapons, that's true, but it's also equally ridiculous. If you have enough resources to make a titan exclusively using a block snatcher weapon, you could also have made a normal ship with 50x more DPS. Your expensive titan can be out-gunned by smaller ships, at longer ranges, for less cost, using normal weapons. Then, the smaller ship could use a small salvage array to eat your dead titan and take a bunch of your wealth.

If you really think I'm wrong, try it out:
Take a damage beam computer and link 400 1-block beam groups to it. Back it up with a secondary cannon computer with 400 cannons. With the group power penalty, this gets you in the neighborhood of the DPS/power I've thrown out in this post and others as an example for salvage beam damage.

Now, take another ship and use 800 blocks to make whatever weapon system you prefer.

Have a cage match with the two ships, and let us know how badly your beam weapon lost.

 

[Tunk]

Math looks workable, got a mass range in mind for such a cage fight?
I'm thinking a 7k mass ship with a bit of over-engineering can support that, with a linear arrangement it can start eating internals pretty much immediately.

 

[Jaaskinal]

The issue is not in designing it. I imagine you could... it's just that there's a 10% penalty per group. A simple formula for the power penalties is 1+(0.1(groups-1)) At 400 groups you get 1+(0.1(400-1)), or 40.9. It literally would take 40.9x power to use this weapon as opposed to another weapon of the same size, or from another perspective, you could literally use a weapon 40.9x the size of this weapon if you had the power for it.

 

[Tunk]

Yes, the power supply could support 60ish times the dps.
Proposal here for the cage fight is basically horrible weapon vs 10% mass ship with optimal weapon of same mass and no shielding however

 

[KingofCalamity]

I just read this whole thread and everyone is basically arguing the same points...

Yes, Necro is a thing.

The sides are pretty laid out but one side seems to basically just say that they don't want salvage beams to act as even weak weapons because they think that it will break the game and make everyone jump on the the salvage weapon band wagon, while the other side has been providing both valid ideas and potential suggestions to make the idea work even if they don't like the idea themselves.

So, my point even if I'll get flamed for even posting, is that the idea of salvage beams as a weak weapon is both a valid and possible idea. While it will most likely never happen, and I wouldn't want to see it as an effect or secondary module as this would make salvaging to easy. With a little more thought on the part of those who are willing to at least give the idea a chance it could become a polished suggestion in no time... barring trolling....

 

[StormWing0]

I'd say the side for them as weapons hasn't taken a phycology course or two or seen what gammers do when picking what they use. I've seen people go for the thing that is a close to everythig in one. So if people could use it as a weapon and to salvage at the same time they are going to use it.

 

[Krougal]

Do the people that are for it think it is really worth the nerfs that would be required to salvage beams because they are now a weapon and have to be balanced against exploits?
Would it really add anything to the game?
When you ask for a feature, you also need to ask yourself is it worth the man hours of development time said feature would take. Yes, it would probably be a trivial amount of work to make the salvager into a weapon, but the hours of gamebalancing tweaks and fixes would probably add up fast.

I don't give a rats ass about the "in the real world" arguments, game balance and gameplay value trump realism. Yes, I kill snakes and rodents in the yard with a shovel routinely as well, do I care if I can do that in a game or not? No. Trying to model every realistic possible interaction of everything is an impossible task. There are tons of overly ambitious early access games that never get completed because of trying to do it all.
The most important realism is what are reasonably accomplishable goals.

 

[Winterhome]

Trying to model every realistic possible interaction of everything is an impossible task.

http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/

knock yourself out

 

[Krougal]

http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/

knock yourself out

FUN!!!

Yeah, that's a prime example. There is so much shit that doesn't work properly or doesn't actually add value, and Toady will never be done with it. There are tons of long standing bugs that never seem to get fixed. Fortunately for him, he is a 1 man band and he lives off donations, not actual sales so he can do whatever at his own pace.

I'm not totally bashing it either, I've logged a lot of hours in DF.

 

[KingofCalamity]

Re-balancing in a problem with every addition or change in a game. Even if that re-balancing is done entirely behind the scenes without the players even noticing.

On the psychology note, as I spent the better part of my first two years of college in all manner of psych class. A portion of people will be all-fors (or those that throw everything into a single instance) which would look for and abuse any loop hole in a new weaponized salvage beam. Sadly, you are right and they are the majority. While that is true, it doesn't totally negate the idea.

I'd like to see salvage beams come back in the actual damage zone rather then the virtual salvage damage zone. This is for, if nothing more, streamlining purposes. To do that however, they would have to be weaponized to a degree. There were a few ways in here to make them so horribly inefficient that using them as actual weapons would basically be pointless as they would be useless in practice.

I however like the idea of simple not allowing them to apply their ability to damage to anything with a core that wasn't in a state of overheating. This could extend further, to anything that was shielded which would basically be the current system without the virtual damage.

To any of you wandering, yes this is a bit of thread-jacking going on but it's an extension on the original thought.

 

[Lecic]

What kind of moron is going to use a significantly weaker weapon that does no damage to shields when there are better weapons available?

Here's an idea- Salvage beams, in the new cargo system, would have the unique ability of being able to salvage blocks directly from enemy cargo space, even if they aren't overheating, on top of doing 1 DPS/block against everything else they hit. Boom, there's a fantastic niche for weaponized salvage to fill. A way for pirates to steal from cargo space instead of blowing it up and taking whatever scraps are left.

 

[KingofCalamity]

You'd be amazed what people will do. As for your 1 DPS and no Damage to shields.... that is exploitable as hell. You would have to do fractional DPS. Even at one, it's 1/20 the strength of other weapons but when dropped on a ship covered with Ion effect turrets or one that uses mines to decent effect even that 1 DPS would tear through hull and then even more quickly system blocks.

I do like the idea of salvaging cargo from an active ship, which would be doable as cargo exists as a variable of a block rather then an actual block. It would open the doors for actual SPACE NINJAS! ..... Ahem... sorry about that.

 

[Lecic]

You'd be amazed what people will do. As for your 1 DPS and no Damage to shields.... that is exploitable as hell. You would have to do fractional DPS. Even at one, it's 1/20 the strength of other weapons but when dropped on a ship covered with Ion effect turrets or one that uses mines to decent effect even that 1 DPS would tear through hull and then even more quickly system blocks.

What advantage does this hold over normal weapons, besides getting what you break? Normal weapons do 10 DPS per block, and are even more effective when paired with block breaking effects like pierce, punch, or explosive.

 

[KingofCalamity]

What advantage does this hold over normal weapons, besides getting what you break? Normal weapons do 10 DPS per block, and are even more effective when paired with block breaking effects like pierce, punch, or explosive.

Doesn't mean people won't waffle board them into massive arrays and troll unsuspecting stations and players who can't afford shields yet. I would actually use this in an ambush scenario using one large battlecruiser capable of ion suppression fire and sniping engine blocks then have two waffle boards come in to pick apart the stalled ships. So while I would use this I would use this a multipoint attack rather then a weapon in general.

DPS doesn't matter a lot when you have a systems engineer that can build an efficient system. While it would always be outclassed by actual weapons, at 1 DPS it would still be a passable weapon because the stacking bonus still applies to large groups of modules. 0.1, or even 0.5 to draw the gap wider, making an effective system would require to much power or to much space. I actually like your idea I would just like to see less then 1 dps... at least against anything that's a fully mobile ship.

 

[Lecic]

Doesn't mean people won't waffle board them into massive arrays and troll unsuspecting stations and players who can't afford shields yet. I would actually use this in an ambush scenario using one large battlecruiser capable of ion suppression fire and sniping engine blocks then have two waffle boards come in to pick apart the stalled ships. So while I would use this I would use this a multipoint attack rather then a weapon in general.

DPS doesn't matter a lot when you have a systems engineer that can build an efficient system. While it would always be outclassed by actual weapons, at 1 DPS it would still be a passable weapon because the stacking bonus still applies to large groups of modules. 0.1, or even 0.5 to draw the gap wider, making an effective system would require to much power or to much space. I actually like your idea I would just like to see less then 1 dps... at least against anything that's a fully mobile ship.

Again- please explain how this is more effective than standard weapons. It holds a very niche role and would never be used outside of pirating, or perhaps recovering your own heavily damaged (but not yet overheating) drones. Regular weapons and salvage beams both have the 10% power consumption increase for each extra output, so it's not like salvagers have some special ability when in waffleboards.

 

[KingofCalamity]

I'm not saying that it would be more effective, but it would be abused in it's own way. In no way would it ever over shadow actual weapons but much as I already said, there are a lot of people out there who would find ways to abuse that 1 dps in ways that could be game breaking, or at the very least frustrating enough to chase people from the game. You would have to make it detrimental to use them as opposed to actual weapons or, what everyone fears, salvage battles will be the result. While they would on paper be mostly useless, which is what you've suggested, in practice that 1 dps used on large scale can be nothing short of a troll cannon. Seen 'em a few dozen times in my gaming life.

 

[CaptainTaz]

I still thik the idea that making it a slaved system with a %chance to steal blocks on impact with beam, cannon, or pulse weapons would be 100x better, and much easier to balance than this suggestion.

 

[Lecic]

I'm not saying that it would be more effective, but it would be abused in it's own way. In no way would it ever over shadow actual weapons but much as I already said, there are a lot of people out there who would find ways to abuse that 1 dps in ways that could be game breaking, or at the very least frustrating enough to chase people from the game. You would have to make it detrimental to use them as opposed to actual weapons or, what everyone fears, salvage battles will be the result. While they would on paper be mostly useless, which is what you've suggested, in practice that 1 dps used on large scale can be nothing short of a troll cannon. Seen 'em a few dozen times in my gaming life.

Again, I must ask- how will it be any more abusable and capable of making people ragequit the game than normal weapons? Normal weapons have 10 DPS/block and are more effective at what they do. Any salvage "troll cannon" will easily get wiped out by normal weapons, because normal weapons are always better, unless you're playing as a pirate and want to steal from cargobays instead of just shooting up the cargo ship and taking whatever scraps are left.

I still thik the idea that making it a slaved system with a %chance to steal blocks on impact with beam, cannon, or pulse weapons would be 100x better, and much easier to balance than this suggestion.

How is that more balanced? Having them at 100% is identical to having just normal salvagers. Unless there's a debuff to make it have less DPS/block at 100%, this would basically just be a more powerful version of having salvage beams be a weapon. And if there IS a damage debuff, how is it any different, besides allowing cannons and pulses?

 

[CaptainTaz]

Again, I must ask- how will it be any more abusable and capable of making people ragequit the game than normal weapons? Normal weapons have 10 DPS/block and are more effective at what they do. Any salvage "troll cannon" will easily get wiped out by normal weapons, because normal weapons are always better, unless you're playing as a pirate and want to steal from cargobays instead of just shooting up the cargo ship and taking whatever scraps are left.



How is that more balanced? Having them at 100% is identical to having just normal salvagers. Unless there's a debuff to make it have less DPS/block at 100%, this would basically just be a more powerful version of having salvage beams be a weapon. And if there IS a damage debuff, how is it any different, besides allowing cannons and pulses?

i'd say the effect would be 50%. ( 100/100 = 50% salvage chance, 100/50 = 25% salvage chance, etc.)

I stated it would be easier to balance because it would be within the 'support system' system, instead of it's own odd weapon type, meaning there wouldn't be a ton of complexity for the devs to rebalance as needed.

and yeah, a debuff would make sense as well. (slower firing rate, etc.)

 

[Lecic]

i'd say the effect would be 50%. ( 100/100 = 50% salvage chance, 100/50 = 25% salvage chance, etc.)

I stated it would be easier to balance because it would be within the 'support system' system, instead of it's own odd weapon type, meaning there wouldn't be a ton of complexity for the devs to rebalance as needed.

and yeah, a debuff would make sense as well. (slower firing rate, etc.)

And what exactly is unbalanced about it just as salvage beams? And I'd think balancing 1 weapon instead of 4 weapons would be easier.