Approx 9 million power generation in approx 70,200 cubes

[GRHayes]

I think shield recharge modules with shield transfer beam's is not useful is because the shield rechargers on the mothership is more effective.

While under fire the main ship only regenerates at 5-10% normal level I assume the worst 5% which is when your almost fully recharged.

Now while a shield transfer beam can transfer half the shields it consumes. The problem is using it as a constant recharge is it too suffers the same under fire penalty while the while your recharing the main ship being shot. So over the long term for the same mass the idea of using a shield module with a shield transfer beam is not as effective for your shield recharge rate. Your better off just to have more shield rechargers on the main ship. So from the shield regeneration point of view there is no point to try to use shield modules with shield transfer beams to increase shield regeneration. The same thing would apply to shield drain beams as the target your draining has reduced shield regen for under fire.

There is a bug in for getting a under fire penalty while using a shield transfer beam on another ship while both ships aren't using anything else. If the fix for that means that a module docked on a mothership doesn't count as under fire while supply shields to the main ship that is under fire then its possible for shield recharge modules to out recharge normal shield recharge setups.

Either way I'm leaving the room in my titan build for the possibility of 1 happening. Just pull out the shield cap and shield recharge blocks reshape them into the spare space to give me room to put the shield modules in.

For the 10x power use for normal non combat recharge. Its not normally a problem for a combat ship. Normally most ships will have enough power left over from not firing weapons to power the x10 shield recharge. Though it is a good idea to have the ship setup to power that anyway as when you login the ship starts with 0% shields and needs to do the full shield recharge anyway. I think that's also in as a bug as the ship not safing power and shield levels when logging out.

Ignore the shield recharge ratings in the GUI and in build mode ship data for under fire penalty as it doesn't show it. It only displays your full normal recharge rate.

A shield transfer beam transfers 1200 out of 1500. That is 80% not half. The problem is you are treating the beam as a 1 second beam. My guess is you didn't double the size of your beam after dividing the amount of shield recharge by 1500.

N = number of beams modules in a beam
R = the amount of recharge you can do in 1 second
C = Shield Capacity
N= R/1500*2
C = R/2 (minimal 14)
You also do not want more than 50% of your shield recharge rate in capacity on your module. The reason is simple the system updates shields from what I can tell on 0.5 second intervals. You also have a factor where any docked module gets shields supplied by the ship.
So what happens is while you are feeding shields to the ship you are also drawing from it. Thus if you reduce to the minimal amount which can be resupplied in the time you eliminate that backwards drain from the ship to the module.

My timers use BTTTTnot BTTTTnot then loops back. Buttons drive the beam. The beam is precisely 2 seconds long. If you go to 2.5 you loose 25% of your efficiency.

 

[Mork2]

I admit I never actually tested the actual efficiency. I just took it from this post.

Guessing this is a bug. When doing shield transfer a single beam block transfers 1200. Assuming like power then it is supposed to use 1500.
However, I noticed that to keep up transfer of just 1 beam it took over 4000 something. To keep up with two alternating beams it was a bit better and only took 5098 to keep up with the transfer rate of both beams. That means you transfer 2400/5098 or about 47%.
.

But for the purposes of shield recharge even if it was 100% the regen penalty for under combat makes it more viable to just have shield rechargers on the main ship. But keeping an ally alive is much more easier than I thought.

 

[GRHayes]

I admit I never actually tested the actual efficiency. I just took it from this post.



But for the purposes of shield recharge even if it was 100% the regen penalty for under combat makes it more viable to just have shield rechargers on the main ship. But keeping an ally alive is much more easier than I thought.

They do not get under combat penalties if they don't have large gaps of their shields not being fully charged.
The reason they got the combat nerf wasn't they where under combat it was because you built them wrong.

If you want more precise setup values.
Beam length
2 = 274 rechargers and 18 capacitors transfers 2400 in 2 seconds or 1200/sec uses 1500 a second recharge
3 = 410 rechargers and 30 capacitors transfers 3600 in 2 seconds or 1800/sec uses 2250 a second recharge
4 = 546 rechargers and 37 capacitors transfers 4800 in 2 seconds or 2400/sec uses 3000 a second recharge

Here is how I worked it out. I fired a beam transfer at a set of shields that where empty. Figured out what it took minimally to deliver first a full 1 beam module in capacitance. That was like 14. 1 module delivers 1200 and uses 1500 I then decided the supply for it needed to provide its rate of use. which would be 750/sec
I went on to test 2, then 3, and 4 and so on.
In truth the 50% to 100% is a bit off you need to actually play with it the way I did testing each setup till you get the best performance and least capacitance needed.

I'm one of those people who test stuff one block at a time to get the best results when needed.

 

[Mork2]

I don't think I'm explaining myself properly.

I don't doubt the shield transfer speed your testing or the efficiency. What I mean is that the while transfer isn't nerfed the actual regen from the shield recharges on the shield module that is doing the transfer is counted as under combat same as the main ship. So while you can transfer the shields fine the basic shield regen of the shield module is under combat recharge the same as the main ship. So the actual shield regen rate for both ships is the same for the same size shield rechargers. The shield module though will have the extra weight of the supply beam though and be less effective for its mass that just straight shield recharges on the main ship.

Maybe someone else can explain this better than me.

 

[GRHayes]

I don't think I'm explaining myself properly.

I don't doubt the shield transfer speed your testing or the efficiency. What I mean is that the while transfer isn't nerfed the actual regen from the shield recharges on the shield module that is doing the transfer is counted as under combat same as the main ship. So while you can transfer the shields fine the basic shield regen of the shield module is under combat recharge the same as the main ship. So the actual shield regen rate for both ships is the same for the same size shield rechargers. The shield module though will have the extra weight of the supply beam though and be less effective for its mass that just straight shield recharges on the main ship.

Maybe someone else can explain this better than me.

I understood exactly what you are saying. You are missing the point. There is a parasitic effect that goes on between the host ship and docked module. The docked Module isn't always charging its shield while the beam is fired thus it doesn't have the combat effect on it during that time.
That is how you get a much higher amount of recharge from it that standard shields. Even if it is the only supplier of shielding so long as the host system has shield capacitance.

I've tested it under combat. It take more time for shielding to drop. If you look on the previous page bottom you can see the pictures of it.
The same two identical systems 1 docked 1 not docked. The not docked system drops to 65.1% in 1 minute under combat. The docked system method only drops to 87.1%. That is 3 times the efficiency of the system that isn't docked.

Between you and me I can care less what the rate is out of combat. Because that isn't when I am in danger. To me 3 times the efficiency is substantial. I rather get that 30% recharge vs the 10% recharge. In truth it probably is better than that if I let the time run on longer and used the most efficient systems I have worked on.

 

[Dvaren]

I understood exactly what you are saying. You are missing the point. There is a parasitic effect that goes on between the host ship and docked module. The docked Module isn't always charging its shield while the beam is fired thus it doesn't have the combat effect on it during that time.
That is how you get a much higher amount of recharge from it that standard shields. Even if it is the only supplier of shielding so long as the host system has shield capacitance.

I've tested it under combat. It take more time for shielding to drop. If you look on the previous page bottom you can see the pictures of it.
The same two identical systems 1 docked 1 not docked. The not docked system drops to 65.1% in 1 minute under combat. The docked system method only drops to 87.1%. That is 3 times the efficiency of the system that isn't docked.

Between you and me I can care less what the rate is out of combat. Because that isn't when I am in danger. To me 3 times the efficiency is substantial. I rather get that 30% recharge vs the 10% recharge. In truth it probably is better than that if I let the time run on longer and used the most efficient systems I have worked on.

I tested again to make sure I am correct. I built an independent entity with 20k shields and 1100 per second shield regen. I of course added power regen and capacitors. There is 1 shield supply computer and 1 shield supply module. I did NOT dock this entity to the master ship. I simply kept it about 15 meters away and allowed it to fire it's shield supply beam into the master ship once. The shield regen was instantly reduced to approximately 10% of the 1100 per second.

Is this explanation clearer than my last?

EDIT: To make absolutely sure, I increased shield capacity to 100,053 and took regen down to 1001 per second. The entity is once again NOT docked to anything. It fires 1 module 1 time. After this it recharges at almost exactly 50 per second or 5% of it's full speed regen.

 

[GRHayes]

I tested again to make sure I am correct. I built an independent entity with 20k shields and 1100 per second shield regen. I of course added power regen and capacitors. There is 1 shield supply computer and 1 shield supply module. I did NOT dock this entity to the master ship. I simply kept it about 15 meters away and allowed it to fire it's shield supply beam into the master ship once. The shield regen was instantly reduced to approximately 10% of the 1100 per second.

Is this explanation clearer than my last?

I understand.
First off when you are not docked you don't receive the parasitic effect benefit. A module draws shielding from the host as long as the host is greater than 50% which is what helps keep its shield capacitance so high. Which is part of why it doesn't end up in that mode.

I went to the point of building two identical modules one docked system one with out the docking.
Then actually fired on them with multiple systems.

If you read the posts I linked above you would noticed that the system with direct regeneration dropped to 65.1% in 1 minute the same system but docked only dropped to 87.1% of its shields. That means it will take the same sustained fire 3 times longer.

Is lasting 3 times longer significant enough? For me hell yes. What about you?

 

[Dvaren]

I understand.
First off when you are not docked you don't receive the parasitic effect benefit. A module draws shielding from the host as long as the host is greater than 50% which is what helps keep its shield capacitance so high. Which is part of why it doesn't end up in that mode.

I went to the point of building two identical modules one docked system one with out the docking.
Then actually fired on them with multiple systems.

If you read the posts I linked above you would noticed that the system with direct regeneration dropped to 65.1% in 1 minute the same system but docked only dropped to 87.1% of its shields. That means it will take the same sustained fire 3 times longer.

Is lasting 3 times longer significant enough? For me hell yes. What about you?

A master ship with a docked shield supply entity will regen it's shields faster than if it were using it's own shield rechargers. I understand this. But when the shield capacitors of the docked shield supply ship reach zero, then what? The docked entity is still limited to the 5-10% recharge rate when it fires its beam, therefore it will stop providing a benefit the moment it's capacitors are empty.

This system would only provide a benefit for a short period of time then would be nearly ineffectual. Even a docked entity with 50 million shields would only be able to supply 100k per second for about 45 seconds.... then it would only be able to supply the severely reduced amount it's rechargers are providing...which could be accomplished just as easily by keeping those regenerators on the master ship (more so even as theres no 20% loss)

Perhaps I am missing something in the point you are making? Or is a short term boost to the master ships regeneration your goal in the first place?

 

[Panpiper]

But when the shield capacitors of the docked shield supply ship reach zero, then what?

"When?"

Why not have a tiny bit extra in both capacitors and regenerators, so it generates more than the shield beam depletes and therefor never reaches zero?

 

[Dvaren]

"When?"

Why not have a tiny bit extra in both capacitors and regenerators, so it generates more than the shield beam depletes and therefor never reaches zero?

Because the shield rechargers on the docked shield supply ship revert to 5-10% recharge rate the second the shield supply beam fires and will stay at that rate until 1 minute post termination of the beam. At this point, you may as well have those rechargers on the mothership as the penalty is the same minus the 20% transfer loss, lol.

I have tested the other fellas setup exactly as he has specified. Using his setup, the docked entity recharged 9700 shields of an empty 72000 on the mothership in 60 seconds. I then used the same exact number of rechargers (using copy/paste to instantly make all 274 appear) on the master ship after adding a new 72000 worth of empty shield capacitors. Recharge rate was 63 seconds. 3 seconds is well within a margin of error. No benefit whatsoever.

 

[Tunk]

Okay, abusing docked shield sharing here has piqued my interest in this again.
As far as I was aware damage was passed down the chain, rather than shields drawn up the chain (a small difference in wording, but a HUGE difference in effect).

If a beam can draw on a parent entity without triggering combat regen on the parent that opens the doors to silly levels of combat regen and breaching damage/power ratio (aka shields can take more punishment than weapons can dish out for the same power).

Definitely a whole slew of tests to plan for this.

 

[GRHayes]

Okay, abusing docked shield sharing here has piqued my interest in this again.
As far as I was aware damage was passed down the chain, rather than shields drawn up the chain (a small difference in wording, but a HUGE difference in effect).

If a beam can draw on a parent entity without triggering combat regen on the parent that opens the doors to silly levels of combat regen and breaching damage/power ratio (aka shields can take more punishment than weapons can dish out for the same power).

Definitely a whole slew of tests to plan for this.

I have 4 pages of data on this already. For myself the answer is clear. Spent 2 days+ working it all out. To the point of figuring out

"When?"

Why not have a tiny bit extra in both capacitors and regenerators, so it generates more than the shield beam depletes and therefor never reaches zero?

Good thought just keep in mind you don't want to have a huge cap on the docked system or it will draw to much from the primary system. You certainly do not want to go above the 100% mark of what you can generate a second.
So far I personally have just ran test on balanced systems. calculating for the 80%. It may get better performance with what you are thinking.

 

[Tunk]

Nothing bad about peer review/secondary confirmation.

You're making a bold claim, and I aim to verify it.

 

[Dvaren]

Okay, abusing docked shield sharing here has piqued my interest in this again.
As far as I was aware damage was passed down the chain, rather than shields drawn up the chain (a small difference in wording, but a HUGE difference in effect).

If a beam can draw on a parent entity without triggering combat regen on the parent that opens the doors to silly levels of combat regen and breaching damage/power ratio (aka shields can take more punishment than weapons can dish out for the same power).

Definitely a whole slew of tests to plan for this.

I've been testing it for days. Shield drain from entity to mothership? Mothership reverts to reduced recharge. Shield supply from entity to mothership? Entity reverts to reduced recharge. Shield drain from mothership to entity? Entity reverts to reduced recharge.

The bug appears to be the reverting to combat charge rates of a docked/separate entity when it FIRES its shield supply beam. It is not actually in combat but suffers the penalty regardless. Their only foreseeable purpose seems to be as a large shield battery that can pump up the motherships regen rate for a set amount of time. Useful, definitely, but extremely situational at best.

 

[GRHayes]

A master ship with a docked shield supply entity will regen it's shields faster than if it were using it's own shield rechargers. I understand this. But when the shield capacitors of the docked shield supply ship reach zero, then what? The docked entity is still limited to the 5-10% recharge rate when it fires its beam, therefore it will stop providing a benefit the moment it's capacitors are empty.

This system would only provide a benefit for a short period of time then would be nearly ineffectual. Even a docked entity with 50 million shields would only be able to supply 100k per second for about 45 seconds.... then it would only be able to supply the severely reduced amount it's rechargers are providing...which could be accomplished just as easily by keeping those regenerators on the master ship (more so even as theres no 20% loss)

Perhaps I am missing something in the point you are making? Or is a short term boost to the master ships regeneration your goal in the first place?

I tested against the two systems I showed. It tripled the time the first 50% takes to drop on the primary system. After that point it provides the 8% while the original shields provide 10% so you loose 2% out on the last 50% of your primary shields.

If we looked at that on a time base. Alone your original amount is 100% of time. With the docked system I gained 3x on the first 50%. That there alone puts me at 150% I loose 20% out of half of my last 50% dropping me down to 40% their. that is a total time of 190% of the original time. That is with a purely docked system.
That doesn't look at what it does with a balanced system even where both the ship and docked system are equal or any other setup.
[DOUBLEPOST=1444617513,1444617462][/DOUBLEPOST]

Nothing bad about peer review/secondary confirmation.

You're making a bold claim, and I aim to verify it.

Posted the module so you could. test against it.

 

[Panpiper]

I am convinced the formula in the Wiki has a typo, the 20 at the end is really a 2 (as I wrote here). Shield regen is not 5-10% of the regen rate the instant the shield is hit with a pop gun, but from 0 - 100% of the regen rate depending upon the percentage of shield remaining. I believe you are seeing the results you are because you are starting with an empty shield. The formula for regeneration efficiency when the shield is at zero results in an abysmally low regeneration rate, while it is at zero. However the closer the shield is to full, the faster it's shield regenerators should generate. Regenerating a shield that is at 95% back to full is (or should be) one second's work if the capacitor to regenerator ratio is 1 for 1.

 

[Dvaren]

I am convinced the formula in the Wiki has a typo, the 20 at the end is really a 2 (as I wrote here). Shield regen is not 5-10% of the regen rate the instant the shield is hit with a pop gun, but from 0 - 100% of the regen rate depending upon the percentage of shield remaining. I believe you are seeing the results you are because you are starting with an empty shield. The formula for regeneration efficiency when the shield is at zero results in an abysmally low regeneration rate, while it is at zero. However the closer the shield is to full, the faster it's shield regenerators should generate. Regenerating a shield that is at 95% back to full is (or should be) one second's work if the capacitor to regenerator ratio is 1 for 1.

From recent testing, this seems true....to a point....the only three percentages I've seen are 5%, 10%, and 100%. This is why I try to build large even multiples of 10 for my total shields and shield regen test beds, lol....it makes it much easier to watch the regen with a timer and calculate what is happening.

When I used the 1001 recharge I was getting almost exactly 50 per second, then 100 per second, and then 1000 per second....I did not observe any other verifiable rates. Seeing as a full second is long enough to observe rate changes without too much trouble, I do not believe I've missed anything.

 

[Crashmaster]

This is starting to sound like a bug;
1. pull shields from main ship
2. suffer 20% loss putting them back in main ship
3. ???
4. shield profit!

Either that or non-vanilla config settings somewhere.

 

[Tunk]

I'm starting to suspect non-vanilla configs as well.
Can confirm once I get home and testing.

 

[Dvaren]

I'm starting to suspect non-vanilla configs as well.
Can confirm once I get home and testing.

They must be some really odd configs then, lol, if they defeat the shield supply/recharge rate bug (it's in the tracker) and provide reverse transfers from mothership to docked entities!

If it helps, I am on the Shattered Skies server, although I do not believe they have many custom settings besides sector size and speed.