Read by Schine Polish the game.

[Criss]

I think Starmade should have an immersive atmosphere and it would add to the gameplay a lot.

Don't worry! We are thinking of stuff all the time. Just last night I was writing up ideas for stellar phenomena.

 

[Zaphord]

It's obvious there are quite a few people on these forums that work in software development, and are saying the same thing the rest of us are saying. Polish comes last.

This is true even in my trade, and as a welder / fabricator, I can tell you there's nothing more frustrating than having to ruin the paint on a piece of steel because it was sent to paint before the welding was finished. It looks bad and will never look as good as it would have if it was finished before going to paint, and the customer gets a an inferior product because of it.

Mind you, software is more forgiving than steel, so the having to go back and fix something usually only costs time and not quality.

 

[lilheartless]

Ok i'm just gunna go ahead and write this whole explanation out in depth probably won't be read but this way I can say my piece and not have to come back.

First lets look at the definition of polish which is to smooth out the surface of an object aka the part people see to make it shiny and desirable.

With that out of the way lets talk about some of the reason why this is the last step in any design, construction, or building process.

1. Things change during a development or building cycle ( what this translates to is its not worth the risk doing finishing work on something that may or may not make it into the final product) Examples I'm building a desk I think I really like the way the surface of the desk is coming together so i prime and paint it after applying it to the frame I finish doing the leg work and and decide that the surface actually looks terrible with the legs but I like the way the legs look so i have to change the surface of the desk basically wasting all the time and resources it took me to "decorate" the surface of the desk in the first place.
2. Things happen during development or building cycle I'm building the same desk and I'm working on getting the drawer put together but before i put on the face plate of the drawer i sand it prime it and then paint it, I then go to place the face plate on the plug mounts however i accidentally applied to much glue and the glue runs out and strips the paint and primer off of the face plate of the drawer I then have to completely sand prime and repaint the drawer ( something i would only have had to do once had i actually finished the project before trying to make it look "polished"
3. creative design is an extension of function (Imagine that over the course of the development process it was decided that grouped modules were going to combine into a single larger module aka if you have 4 grouped cannon modules in a 2x2 x/y or really any of the 3 planes would combine into a 2x2 cannon rather than 4 1x1 cannon blocks and when combined would have a larger projectile, then lets also assume for the sake of argument that this was something the players really wanted in the game, however it was then decided that since 100 work hours already went into the "awesome graphic" for the current cannon implementation there would be no cannon merging update because of the time already invested into polishing the currently existing cannon modules , in this case the existing polish limited the implementation of a possibly cool new feature that could have been added to the game.

TL DR Things change, Shit happens, and its not worth it to do the same work twice which is why "polish" is added last.

 

[FatCobra]

Ok i'm just gunna go ahead and write this whole explanation out in depth probably won't be read but this way I can say my piece and not have to come back.

First lets look at the definition of polish which is to smooth out the surface of an object aka the part people see to make it shiny and desirable.

With that out of the way lets talk about some of the reason why this is the last step in any design, construction, or building process.

1. Things change during a development or building cycle ( what this translates to is its not worth the risk doing finishing work on something that may or may not make it into the final product) Examples I'm building a desk I think I really like the way the surface of the desk is coming together so i prime and paint it after applying it to the frame I finish doing the leg work and and decide that the surface actually looks terrible with the legs but I like the way the legs look so i have to change the surface of the desk basically wasting all the time and resources it took me to "decorate" the surface of the desk in the first place.
2. Things happen during development or building cycle I'm building the same desk and I'm working on getting the drawer put together but before i put on the face plate of the drawer i sand it prime it and then paint it, I then go to place the face plate on the plug mounts however i accidentally applied to much glue and the glue runs out and strips the paint and primer off of the face plate of the drawer I then have to completely sand prime and repaint the drawer ( something i would only have had to do once had i actually finished the project before trying to make it look "polished"
3. creative design is an extension of function (Imagine that over the course of the development process it was decided that grouped modules were going to combine into a single larger module aka if you have 4 grouped cannon modules in a 2x2 x/y or really any of the 3 planes would combine into a 2x2 cannon rather than 4 1x1 cannon blocks and when combined would have a larger projectile, then lets also assume for the sake of argument that this was something the players really wanted in the game, however it was then decided that since 100 work hours already went into the "awesome graphic" for the current cannon implementation there would be no cannon merging update because of the time already invested into polishing the currently existing cannon modules , in this case the existing polish limited the implementation of a possibly cool new feature that could have been added to the game.

TL DR Things change, Shit happens, and its not worth it to do the same work twice which is why "polish" is added last.

Well said and very well thought out.

 

[Wolverines527]

Honestly polished looks isn't important compared to making the game run smoothly with out making the game lag that i think should be focused on as opposed to just making the game look pretty

 

[Ithirahad]

Honestly polished looks isn't important compared to making the game run smoothly with out making the game lag that i think should be focused on as opposed to just making the game look pretty

"Polish" isn't just making the game look pretty, IMO. It's things like being able to enter beam computers (and other newer weapon/tool computers), fixing the size of planet atmospheres and their gravity range, changing recipes so that armor crafting isn't annoying, etc... Just little things that would make the game a lot neater.

 

[FatCobra]

"Polish" isn't just making the game look pretty, IMO. It's things like being able to enter beam computers (and other newer weapon/tool computers), fixing the size of planet atmospheres and their gravity range, changing recipes so that armor crafting isn't annoying, etc... Just little things that would make the game a lot neater.

I would have to disagree with this statement, what you are describing is functionality IMO. Polish as the word implies is making something smooth, shiny, or to remove flaws, perfect, and complete.

 

[Ithirahad]

To me it can include functionality, if that functionality is completely nonessential and only serves to make the game feel more complete... Nobody's ever had too much trouble because planet gravity doesn't have range relative to planet size, or because they can't get in their friend's shield supply computer. They're just minor oddities that make the game 'feel like it's in alpha,' without impacting people's gameplay experience much.

 

[Wolverines527]

I prefer functionality being a prime focus to any game if the game can play smoothly for the cheapest computer on market then you open yourself to a wider range of customers once that is achieved then you polish what you have to make it look good for the launch off point

 

[Jaycephus]

TL;DR: I'm glad Criss commented and look forward to new stuff coming. I know it's mostly been a one-man operation, so I'm very patient. But the OP has valid points, though characterizing this as 'polish' is wrong. Sound engine design for the game isn't a beta-phase system.


I agree with the OP's intent, except it is NOT actually 'polish.' Much of this is part of a core-system that needs to be in the alpha. Thus most of the un-called for attacks from typical dog-eat-dog forum trolls on the OP are really missing the mark. (book: Creating Sound and Music for Games) Explanation follows:

Polish is picking the exact, refined, professional sounds, making sure they each sound off with the correct dynamic reverb or other sound-engine effect, for example, that they work without bugs, and so on. The game system, known as a sound engine, that permits layering multiple sounds, adding randomness, and dynamically changing the volume and sound-altering effects based on factors like size of ship and distance between sound source (e.g. hull hit) and the player's current camera, choosing when to kick off a particular music file, or even dynamically flowing the music to game events, and so on, are all alpha-stage programming. It might not sound great or polished in the Alpha stage, but the underlying control system, the engine, needs to be there. Granted, it may already be planned and ranked as one of the later Alpha items to tackle, but I think the meat of the OP suggestions are valid. These are not things you can just mod into the game later. Not correctly, anyway.

Just finished watching all the episodes of The Expanse available on the Syfy channel. The space battle and the ship thruster burns made me wish that Starmade had more-better sound effects. (Also watch Knights of Sidonia for a great representation of full military power in a big space ship.) Damage sounds should sound like something other than someone knocking on the door, and have random variation, with damage type indicated by the sound as well. Possibly rising in volume the closer it is on the ship to your current camera view, as well. Layers of randomized sound would be even better, with maybe the sounds of escaping gasses from ruptured hull or pressure lines, and subsystem alarms that beep briefly. Randomly, a delayed, secondary sound source fires off, like secondary explosions, debris from the hit clashing on the hull as you pass out of the debris cloud, or other follow-on effects, especially if it actually indicates blocks other than hull blocks were destroyed. Maybe the first time a ship is hit in a 10 minute period, a klaxon sounds for 3 seconds (okay, this can be saved for 'polish' or a mod if hooks for ship mass and block-damage are exposed). And the bigger the ship, the less it sounds like it is coming from a speaker right in your cockpit.

Using full thrust ought to sound like you're putting several gravities of strain on a ship. The more thrusters in a ship, the more the sound changes from a nearby thrust sound to a distant base throb that you hear through conduction even if there is vacuum in the ship. The sounds would grow in intensity and be affected by the accel of the ship. Right now, it might be tied to ship velocity, since there is no accel control: it's either max or off. Thus the more intense sounds fade in once you build some delta-V from the initial V (it's not realistic, but its a way to fade in the max-accel sounds only for a true burn and not quick adjustments, since true accel control is not currently modeled in the game). There should be the sound of steel flexing, groans and clicks and a heavy throbbing bass thrum for big ships. Randomly, a clang or crash might sound, since this is more in the nature of an exceptional thruster burn, and unsecured items might break free. Obviously, the size of the ship matters because a fighter wouldn't have those noises and all sound sources would be closer to the player. Rotational adjustments would sound like retro-rockets firing, not main thrusters firing.

The same goes for thruster plumes. This is something that needs a little more special consideration than the plume mod can provide. The thruster blocks might be placed all over the ship where internal space is available (or some alpha change in the future might require thruster placement and orientation to matter. Thus having a way to show a plume effect where you have have designed your visible engines that have nothing to do with where all your thruster blocks are is very much preferable. choosing between long and short plumes would be great for representing different engine technologies. Having a way to differentiate between main thruster plumes and directional retro-rocket exhaust that fires depending on orientation changes made to the ship would also be a deeper change. And if you add a way to do this, then the sounds and positional location of thrusts might end up being dependent on the display of the plumes.

When anti-missle batteries kick in, it should be visceral, a punch in the gut, knowing you might be moments away from taking a bomb-pumped laser-cluster warhead right in your main thruster-hole. To effect that, maybe anti-missile AI is tweaked to not even fire until valid targets, missiles, are closer, since they are much smaller than ships. Turrets with AI set to be anti-missile might pull a different sound file, so that you know your anti-missile turrets have started firing just by the sounds. A missile battery locking newly-loaded missiles into the tubes would create enough of an audible vibration in your ship that you'd know you were ready to fire your missiles without even looking at the HUD. Linear and rotational rails should have servo/gear-box whines, so you can hear nearby turrets as they begin tracking enemies.

With these sounds implemented, the silence of main thrusters shutting off, or the silence of NOT taking a nuclear-tipped missile to the hull after your anti-missile batteries stop firing should be deafening.

My point is that implementing many of these things are actually alpha-stage sound-engine creation, rather than simple beta-phase polishing. I'm glad Criss responded, and that these things are already being considered! Mainly, I just wanted to point out that sound and visual effects are extremely powerful and effective when used properly, as in The Expanse, and really need to be in the game.

 

[lilheartless]

I will agree with you about what the op is taking about, not being polish.

I feel like i have to add though / re iterate that features are more important than cleaning up the game at this stage especially from a development point of view. right now the game is playable doesn't have many if any truely game breaking bugs, the server crash issue is always going to be a problem in a game that has no limits to what you can do... minecraft has been a finish product for years and if you have enough chunks loaded you can still crash a server with enough tnt and the will to do so.

Regardless of what you (meaning everyone not you specifically who i am replying too) actually think having focus is a good thing, sure having sounds in the game would be cool but i'm not sure it would be more cool than having a working and dynamic faction system they are both NEEDED features of the game neither one of them are more important than the other ,not really, and quality work comes from focusing on one thing at a time.

Sound is something that I personally feel should be one of the last things added. Over time ideas for a game change, the flow changes ,the "theme" changes but your sound is a constant. I personally feel like it would be a better idea to wait till everything or almost everything that needs a sound is in the game that way all the sounds will feel like they belong together because they were all developed at the same time, rather than having sounds that feel out of place or outdated/out of sync with the current game because the direction of certain features or the implementation of new ideas changed the way some things functioned.

As far as "optimization goes" it has been getting done.... things are improving maybe not so much for planets but I believe that the reason for that is that planets are going to be getting another "large" overhaul meaning that any changes to them in their current state would be wasted changes once they get their "big change"

However as i said a few months ago in my previous post first you design, then you build, then you "clean up" you don't want to get too heavily into optimization until the game is feature complete as new work you do may in fact disrupt the old work you've already done, I can't really say it any other way, but i will give a hypothetical example.

Imagine for a second that weapon graphics get a dynamic change without costing performance weapons fire can give off light and with this new change missiles get the explosions that everyone has wanted for a long time and this graphics change for some reason even fixes beams not registering their hits across sectors only one problem this miracle cure which fixes multiple issues adds some new content people have been asking for and ugrades weapons visually in a really awesome and subliminal way also causes the game to not register atmospheres correctly anymore cause of the lighting change and all the atmospheres suddenly disappear.

As it stands right now this wouldn't be a big deal work hasn't been done to clean up the way atmospheres look at least not heavily (aka they haven't been invested in so they are easy to change) so its not a big deal if the code for atmospheric rendering needs to be changed cause hey... it needed to be changed anyways.

Now Imagine the same thing potentially being developed only when they try to implement it into the actual game they find out that it messes with the way the atmosphere renders, its honestly really cool adds lighting effects to weapons makes real missile explosions possible even fixes the beam hitscan across sectors issue, damn that would have been really cool to implement too bad we just spent 2 weeks and 160 hours re writing the way atmosphere generates around planets so that it looks prettier guess this won't be being implemented....

The less time you have spent into cleaning up what exists the easier it is to fix it when its broken without having to undo the work you've already put into which is why it is better to get most "things" into the game before they make the "things" they already have the best they can be.

 

[nightrune]

Spend some dedicated time just to polishing the atmosphere, aesthetic, and sound engine. These things are important for players to immerse themselves in the game world. Immersive games are almost always better, and add to the content of the game as much as a new mechanic.

Spoiler

Make sounds play properly, make weapon effects look good, add explosions, add thruster trails, add situation dependent music(ambient is classical, dogfight is tribal, capital war is tribal rock[sorta like BSG], assault on a massive base is some kind of intense classical chanting and heavy drums. not exactly but sorta like that).

Polish comes later because you don't want to polish things that might be gone or are useless later.