Torpedo Bombers

[Edymnion]

I didn't say that we didn't have shields, simply that you cannot buy them. So, Try reading that again.

I did. You said you can't buy or make them, just salvage them. Which for all practical purposes means you don't have them.

And I'm assuming you two are on the same server, which puts everything in context (since apparently that wasn't important enough to mention up front).

There are no shields, so everybody dogpiles ridiculous amounts of armor on instead. And then nobody can actually tear through that much armor, so you change the game to have super-nukes just to overcome the armor issue that you created for yourselves.

Basically, you unbalanced the game in one area, and are having to unbalance it in another area to fix it.

That makes a hell of a lot more sense to know that, compared to every other server where having so much as two layers of hull armor is considered overkill.

 

[Gasboy]

I did. You said you can't buy or make them, just salvage them. Which for all practical purposes means you don't have them.

And I'm assuming you two are on the same server, which puts everything in context (since apparently that wasn't important enough to mention up front).

There are no shields, so everybody dogpiles ridiculous amounts of armor on instead. And then nobody can actually tear through that much armor, so you change the game to have super-nukes just to overcome the armor issue that you created for yourselves.

Basically, you unbalanced the game in one area, and are having to unbalance it in another area to fix it.

That makes a hell of a lot more sense to know that, compared to every other server where having so much as two layers of hull armor is considered overkill.

Well, unless you've been on every StarMade server, you can't really speak to how much armour is "required" to be effective.

But I do agree that this is the disconnect. Server operators tend to have their own ideas of what balance means, and they adjust their server numbers accordingly.

So basically, this leads to the big thread about making fighters effective in a super-battleship world. The answer is going to be different for every server, apparently.

Also, dude, they said you can "build or salvage".

http://starmadedock.net/threads/torpedo-bombers.20787/page-2#post-227301

That's your post, look at the words in the quote box:

shields by building or salvaging them

 

[Spartan-228]

I did. You said you can't buy or make them, just salvage them. Which for all practical purposes means you don't have them.

And I'm assuming you two are on the same server, which puts everything in context (since apparently that wasn't important enough to mention up front).

There are no shields, so everybody dogpiles ridiculous amounts of armor on instead. And then nobody can actually tear through that much armor, so you change the game to have super-nukes just to overcome the armor issue that you created for yourselves.

Basically, you unbalanced the game in one area, and are having to unbalance it in another area to fix it.

That makes a hell of a lot more sense to know that, compared to every other server where having so much as two layers of hull armor is considered overkill.

Okay let me set you strait right now. You can't buy shields, you must make or salvage them. So shields do exist and players use them, there are several large capital ships that I know of that players have over 5 million shields on.
And no we did not unbalance the game by taking shields out of the shop. We do not need warheads to kill massive armored titans. Hell, cannons will do that nicely it might take a little longer, but it is still easy to do. Adding warhead is an attempt to add a new tactical dynamic to the game that we felt was lacking.

 

[karkinosz]

Im going to be honest if torpedoes on this server bother you, I figure the best solution is logic fired swarmer rounds. Just have them firing missiles constantly whenever you aren't in harms way. So any small enough ship is killed in the endless hellfire and lag of hundreds of swarmers. Before anyone argues lag, warheads encourage collisions between ships, swarms are the lesser of two evils in that case. :P I figure spaced armour would probably work too. Hell just having random transparent blocks in lines around the outside of your ship, maybe 40m off works too.

Going to be honest though, buffing warheads is and has always been a pretty terrible idea. It pisses on the idea that anyone should put effort into playing on a server making ships and encourges bricks suicide ships and et, al.

And I'm going to agree that small fighters a ten thousandth the size of the ship its attacking shouldn't be able to do anything to its target at all. Hell it shouldn't even be a blip on the radar. Using something as conceptually broken as warheads (ignoring shields) to ignore that makes no sense at all.

TLDR: Spam logic swarmers and out cheese the cheese. Or invest no decent amount of time in x server, whichever it is, and just use it to casually grief the playerbase.

Probably have more to say, but too few fucks to give.

 

[Lecic]

Who wants to fly around in a neat fighter only to get one-shot by a billion block cube? Turn around is fair play, don't you think?

Uh, yes, I'd say it's pretty fair for a tiny ship to get swatted by a capital ship's main weapon. A speedboat should get vaporized by a railgun.

 

[Spartan-228]

Uh, yes, I'd say it's pretty fair for a tiny ship to get swatted by a capital ship's main weapon. A speedboat should get vaporized by a railgun.

And a battleship should be turned to slag by a nuke, your point is invalid.

 

[Lecic]

And a battleship should be turned to slag by a nuke, your point is invalid.

Yeah, because it's a ton of fun for you to get the that battleship you spent a week gather materials for to take massive damage from a kamikaze cloaker.

Realism isn't always fun. No one would build big ships. You'll end up with a bunch of people flying cloaked ships covered in warhead spears. It'll be like the alpha missile meta on steroids.

 

[karkinosz]

And a battleship should be turned to slag by a nuke, your point is invalid.

A nuke is a weapon that requires vast amounts of money, time, technology and resources to build maintain develop and deploy. A warhead requires a few minutes of minimal effort. A warhead is comparable to low quality chemical explosives, not a nuclear weapon.

Any decent player can obtain millions of warhead blocks. Really spartan, this isn't even a matter of opinion anymore. You are objectively wrong.

 

[Gasboy]

Yeah, because it's a ton of fun for you to get the that battleship you spent a week gather materials for to take massive damage from a kamikaze cloaker.

Realism isn't always fun. No one would build big ships. You'll end up with a bunch of people flying cloaked ships covered in warhead spears. It'll be like the alpha missile meta on steroids.

Easy. Target the cloaked ship and kill it. :P

If they have radar jammers too, people would come up with ways to deal with it.

 

[Spartan-228]

A nuke is a weapon that requires vast amounts of money, time, technology and resources to build maintain develop and deploy. A warhead requires a few minutes of minimal effort. A warhead is comparable to low quality chemical explosives, not a nuclear weapon.

Any decent player can obtain millions of warhead blocks. Really spartan, this isn't even a matter of opinion anymore. You are objectively wrong.

I can make warheads require vast amounts of money, and resources to build. So that's not a problem. Also massive blocks of warheads are inefficient. In fact if you make your group of warheads to large they wont even all explode. I tried a 50x50x25 block of warheads only half detonated and it was less effective than four, ten warhead torpedoes.

You'll end up with a bunch of people flying cloaked ships covered in warhead spears. It'll be like the alpha missile meta on steroids.

Ya I tried your kamikaze ship. It did an okay amount of damage, but I died. If you go to fast you cant stop in time and run into the blast.

 

[Lecic]

I can make warheads require vast amounts of money, and resources to build.

Then do it. Currently, they sound REALLY unbalanced on your server, because warheads are cheap, deadly, and extremely hard to counter.

Ya I tried your kamikaze ship. It did an okay amount of damage, but I died. If you go to fast you cant stop in time and run into the blast.

That's easy to fix by adding a larger buffer space between the warheads and the cloaker.

 

[Spartan-228]

Then do it. Currently, they sound REALLY unbalanced on your server, because warheads are cheap, deadly, and extremely hard to counter.

I have I just don't know if it is high enough yet. I will have t wait and see what people do. Currently it takes 10 alloyed metal mesh, 10 crystal composite, 25 rammet capsules, 25 sapsun capsules, 25 lukrah capsules, and 50 macet capsules.

 

[kiraen]

1. After weeks of working on a ship, I'd expect someone to make a blueprint.
2. Shipyards. ok, still buggy, but they are there for just this reason.
3. If you don't like these mechanics, don't join this server.
4. He is still balancing these mechanics. He has said that. Schema is still balancing.
   
5. If you don't have turrets and a scanner (proper defenses) you deserve to lose your ship.
6. If you don't want your ship destroyed, don't ever undock from your homebase. Put it in a glass box and just look at it.
7. Yes, his idea of fun overrides others. On HIS server. See point 3.

 

[Spartan-228]

his idea of fun overrides others. On HIS server. See point 3.

Just to clarify I don't like being a bomber pilot. I suck at it, but other people like it. So wile people play with their torpedo bombers I will be in my frigate or cruiser providing ant-missile support, and long-rang covering fire.

 

[Lecic]

I have I just don't know if it is high enough yet. I will have t wait and see what people do. Currently it takes 10 alloyed metal mesh, 10 crystal composite, 25 rammet capsules, 25 sapsun capsules, 25 lukrah capsules, and 50 macet capsules.

I think the price should probably be a third of the materials required for a 1 million damage missile set up would be fair. That'd be about 37k threns and 74k crystal composite a piece each.

If you don't have turrets and a scanner (proper defenses) you deserve to lose your ship.

Who is scanning 100% of the time?

 

[kiraen]

Who is scanning 100% of the time?

The guy who forgot to make a blueprint before jumping away from his homebase protection in a Titan he should have put in a glass case.

You don't have to scan 100% of the time. Just often enough so that someone doesn't sneak up on you. Admitted, scanners still need balancing.

 

[Lecic]

The guy who forgot to make a blueprint before jumping away from his homebase protection in a Titan he should have put in a glass case.

Do you seriously think I'm complaining about time to actually BUILD the titan being an issue? I'm talking about time spent collecting resources for one.

 

[aceface]

That ship looks awesome!

 

[Olxinos]

I don't think the original idea is that bad: introducing a weak point to some defensive designs (over-reliance on shields, little to no armor layers) otherwise too efficient (especially on big ships) is neat since it could make designing/optimizing ships more challenging and interesting (emphasis on could, didn't test, can't tell for sure).

Of course, warheads have many problems: they rely on collisions (which aren't handled well) are completely unpredictable, work a bit too well with 0C cloakers (whose design is in my opinion is even more dubious) and may deal either ridiculously huge or little to no damage depending on the wheather and the alignment of saturn, venus and jupiter. But I wouldn't say up front that this is nonsense and it would ruin the fun (actually I think a well designed titan taking into account possible torpedo damage wouldn't suffer that much from a cloaked kamikaze with his modifications, if that were the case, he can still modify the rules again)

 

[Eosian]

I don't think the original idea is that bad: introducing a weak point to some defensive designs (over-reliance on shields, little to no armor layers) otherwise too efficient (especially on big ships) is neat since it could make designing/optimizing ships more challenging and interesting (emphasis on could, didn't test, can't tell for sure).

Of course, warheads have many problems: they rely on collisions (which aren't handled well) are completely unpredictable, work a bit too well with 0C cloakers (whose design is in my opinion is even more dubious) and may deal either ridiculously huge or little to no damage depending on the wheather and the alignment of saturn, venus and jupiter. But I wouldn't say up front that this is nonsense and it would ruin the fun (actually I think a well designed titan taking into account possible torpedo damage wouldn't suffer that much from a cloaked kamikaze with his modifications, if that were the case, he can still modify the rules again)

With the changes to warheads, they now calculate blast. Basically, shaped charges are now a thing, and blast is propagated like conventional high explosive. Though they do have problems, don't get me wrong, they've fixed enough that Alfred was willing to change the warhead blast and damage output.

Honestly, while we do have titans on our server, as a general rule of thumb we treat them like RL carriers or battleships. Strong, incredibly well protected ships designed to take grievous amounts of damage and remain combat capable, surrounded by at least a basic escort. They are used either as long range weapons platforms or carriers for smaller vessels. They also have escorts to stop assholes with suicide ships from slamming into them.

Interestingly enough, warheads also have a cap on how many can be effective at a time. 200 warheads on a supermissile are not as effective as four missiles with ten warheads. Cool, huh?