Nerf shield curves so that shields scale appropriately for Titans

[Planr]

Currently on Starmade, with the new shield mechanics, ships have a very large amount of shields. Obviously this was done to make space battles longer as well as giving smaller ships a better chance. I agree that such a goal is something we should strive toward, as longer combat, if done appropriately, can mean more fun and survivability for everyone.

Unfortunately, the way the new shields work, it also comes with an absurdly-high flat rate of 495 shields per block. This may sound fine on paper, but it works absolutely terrible in game.
Here is some evidence for you:

This is my ship (275m long, not even a titan) with three dozen or so 10x10x10 shield block chunks slapped on for 100 million shield capacity. The ship previously had only 25 million. Yes, those blocks you see on the outside added 75 million shields alone. I spawned in 12 of my heavily-armed 100-meter assault frigates to attack my ship. The picture you see is the result after roughly 100 seconds of combat, with only a fraction of the shields drained. This is even worse than how shields were before the big update.

I don't know about you, but I think this is ridiculous. I left my ship mostly unarmed as I havent developed the proper turrets for it, but knowing that turrets are extremely well-shielded now with the shields the way they are, I don't even want to imagine the defensive ability and destructive ability they would have now.
Overall, titans still are just really overpowered in terms of shielding and they need to be made actually fightable. Smaller ships still don't stand a chance except in massive swarms.

Comr4de and I have repeatedly reached out to several of the devs about this for many weeks now, but most of the time they have either dismissed us or denied that this is a major issue. One proposed solution was to possibly split shield tankage and regen between two different types of blocks, but that does not solve the issue one bit; the issue is tankage itself needs to be changed to curve more appropriately with the more blocks you add.

I had thought this update was supposed to fix the issue of giganticism, but i see that's not what happened at all. There is no incentive to use a smaller ship when the other factions around you are using giant behemoths that your ship cannot hope to de-shield before it gets obliterated itself. So what do you do? Play along in this stupid arms race and build the biggest ship you can, and after all, it's the only way to win.

So how can this be fixed?
The shield flat-rate needs to be significantly weakened. They need to be put on a continuously-decreasing curve. This works well considering ships scale exponentially in useable space the bigger they get. This way, a 200-meter ship with 20 million shields scales well and has a better chance against an 800-meter ship with 100 million shields. Say (and I'm just throwing this out there as an example; I don't necessarily agree with these numbers), a 10-shield-per-block flat rate (10x less than what it currently is), and have it hit its flat rate after around 20 or so million shields, which is roughly what my ship (a capital ship a fair distance below titan tier) has.

I don't mean to insult the devs or anyone else with this, but, I find it very appalling they have let such a big issue go so untouched for so long. If they REALLY played the game against REAL military factions, like the DFN, Vaygr and Tartaran Empire, there is no way they couldn't see the obvious issue that the ships are for all intents and purposes invincible! I deal with some of these factions and their very large 300-to-600-meter warships almost on a daily basis, and the only ships that can really beat their titans in online PvP are other titans.

This is a HUGE problem. And I want schema to see it too, and I want him to fix this so that titans are still useful but not the ends-all, wins-all means to Starmade combat.

 

[MrFURB]

Shield blocks and weapon module blocks are balanced against each other. The power use of both of them is ten units of power per damage point done/mitigated. The capacity of shields is balanced around just over a minute and a half of taking sustained damage. A ship with thirty weapon blocks will take just over a minute and thirty seconds to disable the shields of a ship with thirty shield blocks. There are multiple reasons for this, including: it's a nice round number that's easy to put into formula and tweak, it's long enough to give both players opportunities to create advantages, but not so long that those advantages disappear before the fight ends, and the capacity of a shield block is just a little bit higher than the damage per volley of a missile/pulse.

The problems that many people are having with this is more related to them testing it with older designs that use many more shield blocks than weapon blocks. Before the weapons update, it was ideal to use shield blocks as a filler, as they required next to no energy and were required in massive numbers in order to counter an opponent's offense. Now the power disparity between a shield block and weapon block is much less, and it's prudent to outfit ships with a greater focus on offense than they had previously. A ship with perfect balance between offense and defense will have exactly as many weapon blocks as shield blocks... But due to people's personal preferences, I don't expect that to be a common thing. (Glass cannons FTW!)

 

[Planr]

the capacity of a shield block is just a little bit higher than the damage per volley of a missile/pulse.

This is exactly what the problem is. Shields are inherently more powerful than weapons, which is exactly what's preventing people from being able to take down these giant titans.

The issue is also one of scaling, like I have said. Shields and weapons scale so that the bigger ship always has the biggest advantage.
What your post seems to be essentially saying is that ships with massive shields should be only beaten by even-more-massive weapons. I respectfully and completely disagree, and I assure you that it doesn't work well in-game this way. A lot of capital ships can't utilize their own weapons against other ships because they are too big and unmaneuverable to hit them. So instead, that useable space inside the ship that you were saying could be balanced between more weapons and more shields no longer becomes an option. So instead, those people have to use giant turrets if they want to be able to do significant damage to anything.
Power is not much of an issue either, so there is little preventing titans from building giant turrets, but then again, giant turrets are generally unattractive and ugly, and especially don't look good if you are flying a ship themed after practically any sci-fi franchise. It makes me feel like I'm in a buzz lightyear cartoon.

 

[Admiral.Piett]

You are wrong, they can be defeated by systems of the same size or smaller, albeit it only takes more time. How much time, is the issue.

 

[Planr]

You are wrong, they can be defeated by systems of the same size or smaller, albeit it only takes more time. How much time, is the issue.

You misinterpreted my post; I was referring to actual combat, not theoreticals. That smaller ship does not have the spare time against that titan to drop its shields before the titan's larger and superior guns finish them off.

 

[Admiral.Piett]

Well, damn, ship combat is balanced according to the size of the damn ship. If you want to kill a 800m ship with fighters, it is a problem. A 500m ship might have issues to. But you are supposed to be able to dodge way more stuff than him after the changes to the thrust system arrive, in a smaller ship. Also, they nerfed Regen a lot, that means that ship ain't getting its shields back up as soon as you stop shooting it. You are simply lacking firepower, not even DPS. Problem before was you couldn't even GET the shields down, remember? Now you can, but it takes longer for them to be completely depleted. Also, as the mod wrote, ships are now more offensive, which means that on further game development you won't see this issue anymore. The mass relation i wrote in another post, though, could balance this issue even more if we make shields heavier. Ship is even harder to turn, and you should outmaneuver. Think of it.

 

[Planr]

Well, damn, ship combat is balanced according to the size of the damn ship. If you want to kill a 800m ship with fighters, it is a problem. A 500m ship might have issues to. But you are supposed to be able to dodge way more stuff than him after the changes to the thrust system arrive, in a smaller ship. Also, they nerfed Regen a lot, that means that ship ain't getting its shields back up as soon as you stop shooting it. You are simply lacking firepower, not even DPS. Problem before was you couldn't even GET the shields down, remember? Now you can, but it takes longer for them to be completely depleted. Also, as the mod wrote, ships are now more offensive, which means that on further game development you won't see this issue anymore. The mass relation i wrote in another post, though, could balance this issue even more if we make shields heavier. Ship is even harder to turn, and you should outmaneuver. Think of it.

Of course I don't expect fighters to take down a titan. Like you said, not even 500-meter ships can get the job done, which is also the problem. Like i've said before, regen is not the issue here. I don't know why you brought that back up. It's shield capacity scaling that's the issue. The shield ratings between titans and smaller ships are simply and obviously unfair. The smaller ships do not have the time to take down the titan's shields before their own shields get taken down by the titan's exponentially larger weapons. In this case, it's as furb appeared to be implying; you can only beat an equivalent-sized ships and weapons with equivalent-or-bigger-sized ships and weapons, which is absolutely ridiculous.

For the record, before this update, smaller ships actually had a BETTER chance. My space battleship did 500,000 damage per second and could easily hit titans from far away. It actually stood a chance. Now it stands very little chance, and the only way I can defeat those larger enemies is to build obnoxiously large 100-meter turrets that are half the size of my ship.

 

[CyberTao]

I'm gonna have to Give this one to Planr, balance isn't Linear.

Lets say you built a ship thats 50% weapons and 50% shields, the "Ideal" ship MrFurb was talking about. Then lets say it was attacked by 4 ships 1/4th the size of it.

The theory says that should be an equal battle, yes? Well its not. All the Larger ship must do is concentrate on 1 of the smaller ships at a time.
After 60 seconds, 25% of the Large ship's shields are Gone, but 1 of the smaller ships are dead. That means that after another 60 seconds, The large ship only loses 18.75% Shields, and then kills another Small ship (I'm ignoring the passive shield regen of the Large ship for this example). Do you see the issue here? Concentrated Firepower Power overcomes Masses easily.

So what might work? You'd send in 2 ships that are ~2/3rds the size of the large ship, and they would probably win. But the Issue is thats MORE blocks needed to kill the ship. You would need More blocks combined in order to take down a single Large ship, Which is basically "Bigger is Better", but split up slightly.

It also doesnt really help that Ships are locked in each other's range :u Given the awkward turning and all.

Also, Admiral.Piett don't advertise your suggestions in other people's threads. There's a chance they saw it and ignored it for a reason.

 

[Planr]

Excellent point CyberTao, I hadn't even considered the additional factor that focused fire played in this.

However, I would also say that i'm personally not sure how focused fire would work if you have a big ship with turrets; last I checked they still can only fire at whatever they want to rather than the target you have selected. I would though like to see that old issue fixed. I remember how turrets had the option to "fire at the player's selected target", but it rarely actually worked. It would- if you remember- only fire at the first target you selected, but not switch over to another target until the previous target went out of range.

But hey, maybe that problem was fixed already and I just don't know it. :D

 

[CyberTao]

Excellent point CyberTao, I hadn't even considered the additional factor that focused fire played in this.

However, I would also say that i'm personally not sure how focused fire would work if you have a big ship with turrets; last I checked they still can only fire at whatever they want to rather than the target you have selected. I would though like to see that old issue fixed. I remember how turrets had the option to "fire at the player's selected target", but it rarely actually worked. It would- if you remember- only fire at the first target you selected, but not switch over to another target until the previous target went out of range.

But hey, maybe that problem was fixed already and I just don't know it. :D

Honestly I was also discounting Turrets as well. I was talking onboard weaponry, Turrets are another story. The Devs talk about balance between blocks on the main ship, So I don't imagine they were taking into account turrets either.

 

[ResonKinetic]

I dunno maybe the devs want to keep this shield system for people who are overcompensating for something

 

[Admiral.Piett]

Well, there are several problems here, still. Have taken into account the amount of resources planned for having such ships in any actual server once economy kicks in? It has more drawbacks to it. I still believe that the current system might need slight tweaks, perhaps on the amount of shield stored, and the fact all this systems need to be balanced around complete mechanics. It is the incomplete mechanics that is making this fall into the ground as not helpful at all. The first thing needed to manage a spaceship, is what it needs to be one. You are missing so many factors into these merely numerical calculations, like ship movement and maneuvering, that it no longer makes sense. Scaling doesn't have to be linear. Hardly in any game, balance is linear for this type of mechanics. You are assuming, by default, that a all ships are stationary and landing all hits on the enemy, Bypassing COMPLETELY ship design and the fact that that behemoth is 4 times bigger than my ship and MUST be proportionally slower to maneuver, allowing the smaller ships to dodge. If it were as maneuverable, then its shield relation, or its weapon relation, is smaller, therefore cannot output the same damage. A comparison like that only works when both ships have the same size, and they have the same shield/weapon block relation. Also, the ship isn't dead when its shields go down.

And to the later CyberTao , Idea proliferation is my goddamn right, if it had nothing to do with this I'd give you the point, but it does matter. Making a titan behave like a titan, once thruster changes come in, will factor in more ways than you can think of. And mass is directly linked to this matter. And why send 2 ships 2/3 in size, instead of just one of the same size?

After all, what is the point of a titan if it weren't a wins-all, ends-all ship? It defeat the purpose itself of being a titan. Also, it isn't un-kill-able. It just takes more time. And ships.

 

[rece ktore leczo]

I don't see a problem here. Bigger ship --> more blocks --> more shields and more DPS. It's that simple. If we put two ships with different sizes facing each other, the battle most likely would be won by bigger one and i wouldn't expect anything other than that. Why the hell it shouldn't be this way?
Main way to gain advantage in battle is to outmaneuver the enemy ship and get on its tail, but big ships have pretty similar turning speed, making it hard to do so.

The real problem is that so far battles lack the tactic level, because now combat is mainly about pointing mouse over the enemy ship and holding lmb. That's why combat mechanism need update but i guess it would be hard task to come with balanced and enjoyable system.


Edit: I might have been too rough for the tactic-less combat, because we now have effect systems plus we may gang on enemy ships. Nonetheless we sure may use more ways to fight the enemy.

 

[Admiral.Piett]

We simply need more of the planned mechanics implemented to be sure shields are OP. I agree with rece ktore leczo

 

[ResonKinetic]

We simply need more of the planned mechanics implemented to be sure shields are OP. I agree with rece ktore leczo

but there's nothing to be sure of; shields ARE op

 

[Admiral.Piett]

but there's nothing to be sure of; shields ARE op

You have no actual arguments, as the current game state is not at all ready for that claim. Give me full mechanics, and I'll share on this matter again. You can't be sure this far. Current values in the game are the result of incomplete mechanics. Yet again.

Planr

At least share why are you disagreeing, for game mechanics are indeed, far from complete. Maybe im asking to much though.

 

[ResonKinetic]

You have no actual arguments, as the current game state is not at all ready for that claim. Give me full mechanics, and I'll share on this matter again. You can't be sure this far. Current values in the game are the result of incomplete mechanics. Yet again.

Planr

At least share why are you disagreeing, for game mechanics are indeed, far from complete. Maybe im asking to much though.

we can be sure because it's been tested; the answers are in the op, which you are clearly ignoring and at this point, i feel like you're disagreeing with it just for the sake of it.

 

[Commodore]

Well, there are several problems here, still. Have taken into account the amount of resources planned for having such ships in any actual server once economy kicks in? It has more drawbacks to it. I still believe that the current system might need slight tweaks, perhaps on the amount of shield stored, and the fact all this systems need to be balanced around complete mechanics. It is the incomplete mechanics that is making this fall into the ground as not helpful at all. The first thing needed to manage a spaceship, is what it needs to be one. You are missing so many factors into these merely numerical calculations, like ship movement and maneuvering, that it no longer makes sense. Scaling doesn't have to be linear. Hardly in any game, balance is linear for this type of mechanics. You are assuming, by default, that a all ships are stationary and landing all hits on the enemy, Bypassing COMPLETELY ship design and the fact that that behemoth is 4 times bigger than my ship and MUST be proportionally slower to maneuver, allowing the smaller ships to dodge. If it were as maneuverable, then its shield relation, or its weapon relation, is smaller, therefore cannot output the same damage. A comparison like that only works when both ships have the same size, and they have the same shield/weapon block relation. Also, the ship isn't dead when its shields go down.

THIS! (maybe excluding the bit about big ships being hard to get)

Also, nobody has really mentioned this, but ships of around 500,000+ blocks are balanced by power regeneration at this point. I am working on a 1,500,000 block ship at the moment, and I am expecting to dedicate 500,000 to 800,000 blocks to regen, as 25 energy per block is so little.

However, turrets are not even remotely balanced if power regen is the balancing factor for titans, they can have their own million regen at very roughly 200-300 energy per block, which is at the same rate a small ship gets it.

So basically, if all shots landed, and turrets were ignored, smaller ships sitting right on 1 million regen with the same total mass as a larger ship SHOULD defeat it, as they are not committing half their mass to power regen. The capital gets an advantage as it destroys each small one, and the small ones can hit the capital more easily. It is kinda near being balanced. Then the turrets come along, blast the little ships to tiny pieces, and the capital wins.

 

[Admiral.Piett]

Not at all, please, remind yourself this @ReasonKinetic : It is an ALPHA game. And some many mechanics incomplete. Also, why the fuck should a 500 meter ship defeat a 800 meter one? Just hear the thought, it makes NO SENSE. He said it himself, titans need swarms of enemies to be defeated, or another titan. That IS the way it works everywhere else (Eve online, anyone?) Why not here? I do agree shield need tweaks, but the flat rate he is suggesting is beyond madness. Commodore I agree, turrets are another issue. But that is why i am pushing heavily on the aspect that
a) turrets should have their AI settings better defined to target intended objetives
b) They should share a % of the motherships shields, dependent on turret mass, and either "withdrawing" these shields fomr the motherships pool, or nerfing its regen equal to the regen the turret should get based on the amount of shields it has.
c) Turrets should move slower according to mass.

That way, we are almost making sure fights get enough tactical depth. Many more things need to be implemented, and mechanics polished. Shields certainly isn't the one that needs that right now.

Into my sincere opinion, this game will strike balance when ships is similar mass are comparable on performance, and only differ by it based on the ships design. AKA the biggest and better designed ship wins. It simply should be that way. if 2 Ships equal in mass to a titan defeat it, it is balanced slightly towards smaller ships, but people seem to like that idea, and i do, too. And yeah, we totally skipped the energy calculations here, which are very important, into achieving a ships size, defensive and offensive capabilities.

 

[CyberTao]

Who said we are assuming a ship is stationary? Large ships are hard to miss. The only think I'm assuming is the Pilot is a complete Scrub.

Thrusters wont "Fix" the current problem, because you could just load the Larger ship with the ones that boost turning.

Also, -SHOCKER- My Example wasnt about a Large Titan, it was a Medium Sized Cruiser. Ships are LINEAR. And Giving the attitude of the Devs, Thrusters will also be LINEAR.
All the new factory systems and rebalance will do is make it harder to get them, and take longer :u When a server starts out there will be fewer yes, but people will Stockpile.

Also, Commodore Large ships depend on Power Storage, as they always have (which is now Buffed to hell and back)