Brainstorm This Asteroid spawning and balancing mining

    Winterhome

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    Okay, so. Previously, asteroid mining was only a remotely viable option because it was possible to save the location of Larimar asteroids and farm the sectors in which they spawned, or to move asteroids to a single sector via push beams and use that as a farm.

    The total lack of asteroid respawns means that you get, at most, one 10k mass ship's worth of shield capacitors from an entire system that has larimar, and considering the rarity of larimar in the first place... well. You get the idea.

    The most recent bug/exploit fix was done in such a way that planet mining was significantly buffed. This is very much not ideal, for obvious reasons.

    Can we get some suggestions on ways to fix this going on this thread?
     

    jorgekorke

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    How about the old idea of replenishing the asteroids on a sector at the expense of faction point ?

    Bug or not, asteroids MUST respawn somehow. Otherwise, with the increase of expansion (since planets do not respawn as well) servers are going to be doomed, with more data being generated with more new explored galaxies. Like our situation with the bigger servers weren't bad enough...
     
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    Valiant70

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    Asteroid respawning needs to become and official feature rather than a bug.
     
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    Although what i am going to say has no physical sense please bare with me.
    At the moment (to my knowledge) stars have almost no function except to destroy your ship and metaphysically hold stuff together and dictate possible ores in the system. Now lets let our imagination help us find one more function for the stars.
    I would assume ppl interested in space games should know about solar flares or coronal mass ejections (if you dont google it so u dont get misled by the following text). Lets have those events form new asteroids in the system. Every now and then there should be a solar flare that creates a new asteroid. Ofc if its repetitive process it would clutter the system and it would be full of asteroids and totally unplayable i think. There could be a soft and/or hard limit to number of asteroids per system or some other volume measurement unit we use in starmade. So, depending on the number of asteroids and the position a flare on a star and its intensity we could potentially have more immersive (not realistic) asteroid respawn system.

    Im awaiting your comments and critiques! <3
     

    Valiant70

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    Although what i am going to say has no physical sense please bare with me.
    At the moment (to my knowledge) stars have almost no function except to destroy your ship and metaphysically hold stuff together and dictate possible ores in the system. Now lets let our imagination help us find one more function for the stars.
    I would assume ppl interested in space games should know about solar flares or coronal mass ejections (if you dont google it so u dont get misled by the following text). Lets have those events form new asteroids in the system. Every now and then there should be a solar flare that creates a new asteroid. Ofc if its repetitive process it would clutter the system and it would be full of asteroids and totally unplayable i think. There could be a soft and/or hard limit to number of asteroids per system or some other volume measurement unit we use in starmade. So, depending on the number of asteroids and the direction a flare would appear we could potentially have more immersive (not realistic) asteroid respawn system.

    Im awaiting your comments and critiques! <3
    Well, stars and asteroids are made of fundamentally different materials so... It's a cool idea but it doesn't make enough sense even for a fairly unrealistic game. Things don't have to be too realistic, but they need to be believable. Leaving an area and coming back to new asteroids is less brain-breaking than watching a star spit asteroids IMO.
     
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    Having more solar activity would be interesting though.
    If shields eventually mitigate or block the SOLAR DEATH RADIUS then solar flares and such could both increase the damage/radius and act as EMPs that rapidly drop shields of anybody nearby.


    Regarding the actual subject, asteroids respawning and being more valuable are both sensible ideas to me, not a lot else to say on the matter aside from Yes, Definitely.

    The spawn rate and size of asteroids is another matter to keep in mind regarding balance.
    Currently asteroids are at a fairly small to moderate size, having much larger asteroids show up occasionally would be interesting.

    As far as respawn time goes, it could simply be based on the mass of a given asteroid, smaller asteroids could repopulate much faster, but require more work to mine an equivalent amount since you'd have to keep moving through the asteroid field.
    Whereas much larger asteroids might take a long time to respawn, but have a ton of materials.
     
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    Stellar generation of asteroids is not a bad idea. It is neither realistic nor practical to have to wait millions of years for a supernova or to have stars frequently exploding in the game, but that is where all those nifty elements are believed to originate (http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/ask_astro/snr.html#980226a).

    Whatever method or lore explanation is used, it would probably help keep things interesting to have asteroids replenish in different/random varieties and in different/random sectors rather than always in the same places.
     
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    Although what i am going to say has no physical sense please bare with me.
    At the moment (to my knowledge) stars have almost no function except to destroy your ship and metaphysically hold stuff together and dictate possible ores in the system. Now lets let our imagination help us find one more function for the stars.
    I would assume ppl interested in space games should know about solar flares or coronal mass ejections (if you dont google it so u dont get misled by the following text). Lets have those events form new asteroids in the system. Every now and then there should be a solar flare that creates a new asteroid. Ofc if its repetitive process it would clutter the system and it would be full of asteroids and totally unplayable i think. There could be a soft and/or hard limit to number of asteroids per system or some other volume measurement unit we use in starmade. So, depending on the number of asteroids and the position a flare on a star and its intensity we could potentially have more immersive (not realistic) asteroid respawn system.

    Im awaiting your comments and critiques! <3
    it makes sense and is partly realistic, asteroids do have a bit of origin from dying stars, though not from flares and outbursts, it's a good idea.

    Well, stars and asteroids are made of fundamentally different materials so... It's a cool idea but it doesn't make enough sense even for a fairly unrealistic game. Things don't have to be too realistic, but they need to be believable. Leaving an area and coming back to new asteroids is less brain-breaking than watching a star spit asteroids IMO.
    I don't even know how to respond to that "stars and asteroids are made of fundamentally different materials"... to the best of our knowledge everything, except hydrogen, comes from stars, all the materials were forged inside a star, in a process called fusion, that we would really like to mimic.
    he wasn't talking about a star "spitting asteroids", he was talking about a natural occurring event, which would have a non-realistic effect, in a game where a space station has no mass, which would mean they can have no gravity as that is mass-related, and all galaxies are perfectly alligned.

    Stellar generation of asteroids is not a bad idea. It is neither realistic nor practical to have to wait millions of years for a supernova or to have stars frequently exploding in the game, but that is where all those nifty elements are believed to originate (http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/ask_astro/snr.html#980226a).

    Whatever method or lore explanation is used, it would probably help keep things interesting to have asteroids replenish in different/random varieties and in different/random sectors rather than always in the same places.
    and this is a nice response.

    yeah, a solar storm could charge through the system, damaging systems on ships and replenish asteroids, the storm would've have to deal damage, just drain energy, like an EMP and ion weapon. it's could even start by draining 100% at the sun surface, and then down to 0% at the edge of the system. and then it would refill/"restock" the system with asteroids, not making new ones, but adding in those that have been removed. perhaps burning up rogue asteroids that are factionless
     

    StormWing0

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    I figure rather than retyping this idea here I'll just link to it and save a few miles of typing: http://starmadedock.net/threads/orbiting-asteroids-and-other-asteroid-ideas.20269/

    In my case the first idea there was to have stray asteroids fly in from the edge of the system in unloaded areas and head for a random belt and the closest sector of that belt before starting their orbits around the sun. Next was having a large storm of them come in from all directions sometimes causing ships to get caught up in the mix. Last was making it so asteroids could sometimes slam into planets spreading their blocks over the plate they hit.
     
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    Removing the asteroid respawn is out of question, but it has to be limited in some way. The easiest way to attend to the topic is to tie asteroid respawns to server restarts, since any multiplayer server is highly suggested to perform scheduled restarts anyway.

    Forthcoming updates to flora and fauna makes it reasonable to make planets even less profitable to mine directly. Automatic planetside mining and farming mechanics has been suggested on many occassions, to reduse the incentives to mine planets via salvagers.

    In general, all the possibilities has been suggested and discussed for a long time and all the required feedback is readily available, safe for the most unreasonable and irrational ones. In the end, it's a question of developers outlook on what they want Starmade to be. No matter what one or another player has to think and say about it, the only solution is to facilitate a finished idea of Starmade resource management, crafting, economy and faction influence upon these aspects as a whole concept. Trying to "fix" or to "rework" these mechanics separately will never yield any positive results due to how interdependant they are.
    • Resources should be divided into several tier by their rarity, value and items, that are made out of them.
    • Resources should be unevenly distributed. Differene systems has to have different resources. Asteroid belts should each have up to two variants of asteroids, whose contents should be untied from their type and be instead random with respect to the rarity values and permanently tied to that asteroid belt. Smaller belts closer to the parent star would give less potential volume of resources and potentialy be dangerous due to solar radiation, but would have a better chance for more rare resources to be attached to them.
    • Information about systems, including planets and asteroid belts should become local, thus promoting exploration and resource sampling. Discovering a single asteroid belt sector might be enough to provide the information about it to the Galactic map, but it is certain that a complete knowledge about the resource abundance in all systems is not fun.
    • Salvage arrays should suffer a similar grouping penalty as other weapons and tools do. This would force people to keep to reasonable array sizes and would require a powerful power system to feed it on its own.
    • Crafting recepits should be redesigned to the middle ground between the initial "I just broke my brain" schematics and current kindergarden, "taste the rainbow" ones. This level of complexity should prevent people using single factories to craft everything by being reasonably multi-staged, but not as complex and unintuitive to make it complete nightmare for everyone. Schematics of course should correspond to the rarity of resources.
     

    jorgekorke

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    I agree with some things, but dissagree with others. Here we go :

    • Salvage arrays should suffer a similar grouping penalty as other weapons and tools do. This would force people to keep to reasonable array sizes and would require a powerful power system to feed it on its own.
    Salvage beams are already weak enough by vanilla, IMO. The early game will become even worse then it already is should more difficulties appear.

    • Crafting recepits should be redesigned to the middle ground between the initial "I just broke my brain" schematics and current kindergarden, "taste the rainbow" ones. This level of complexity should prevent people using single factories to craft everything by being reasonably multi-staged, but not as complex and unintuitive to make it complete nightmare for everyone. Schematics of course should correspond to the rarity of resources.
    Crafting system is actually good enough, with only some features totally broken, such as the crafting of brown color.

    To get more complex then that would become something like those Minecraft "technological" mods. Which would be absolutely terrible.
     

    Valiant70

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    Removing the asteroid respawn is out of question, but it has to be limited in some way. The easiest way to attend to the topic is to tie asteroid respawns to server restarts, since any multiplayer server is highly suggested to perform scheduled restarts anyway.
    I don't like this idea at all. A server restart should not affect the game itself except by cleaning up server resources and making things run smoothly.



    Crafting recepits should be redesigned to the middle ground between the initial "I just broke my brain" schematics and current kindergarden, "taste the rainbow" ones. This level of complexity should prevent people using single factories to craft everything by being reasonably multi-staged, but not as complex and unintuitive to make it complete nightmare for everyone. Schematics of course should correspond to the rarity of resources.
    I agree with some things, but dissagree with others. Here we go :



    Salvage beams are already weak enough by vanilla, IMO. The early game will become even worse then it already is should more difficulties appear.



    Crafting system is actually good enough, with only some features totally broken, such as the crafting of brown color.

    To get more complex then that would become something like those Minecraft "technological" mods. Which would be absolutely terrible.
    All we really need to spice things up is a single "component" stage for certain complex systems like computers. i.e. complicated blocks like computers use ore and crystal capsules PLUS one type of component item (occasionally two or more for something extremely complex like a cloaking device or ship core). Large numbers of components like the Minecraft tech mods are not necessary. Just a few would suffice. The charged crystal circuits and junk are too boring and there are too many of them to use for this. We need something rather different. Simple components like thrusters could still be made from raw capsules I suppose.
     
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    Salvage beams are already weak enough by vanilla, IMO. The early game will become even worse then it already is should more difficulties appear.
    Not really. It will only affect that fewer larger group will be more plausible, than vast number of groups of weak ones. Considering that reactors, capacitors, thrusters and salvager projectors all require "junk" resources, it is too easy to build very large lag-inducing arrays. I'm also do not suggest the same group penalties, only the similar ones. IMHO there's should be a payback for using a very large salvage array both to limit their effective size and to make it more unfavorable to combine combat and salvage capabilities on a large ship.
    Crafting system is actually good enough, with only some features totally broken, such as the crafting of brown color.

    To get more complex then that would become something like those Minecraft "technological" mods. Which would be absolutely terrible.
    Not at all. It is so easy, that you can have one enormous group of Enhancers and all factories you need to produce everything. This is unacceptable I think. In my opinion, we should reintroduce circuits and motherboards to use them instead of capsules in high-end item production. Also I think some items should use resources of different color combinations, Effect blocks as the best example.

    I don't like this idea at all. A server restart should not affect the game itself except by cleaning up server resources and making things run smoothly.
    Again, all I've said is that it's the easiest method. I've never suggested it's the best one. The only two alternatives I see, is either respawning unloaded asteroid sectors with a global time period, or to individually attach respawn timers to sectors which were directly visited/mined-out by players, both with server config variables.
     
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    A cease to the desire to build bigger and bigger checkerboard arrays would be nice, to reduce the number of beams the game is trying to draw. Abstracting where the resources come from would also be a good way to reduce lag form immense salvage systems: if one high-power system hitting one asteroid is enough to draw the mineral wealth from the asteroid quickly and efficiently, and eventually drain it (I suppose it would visibly collapse and be removed after being drained of resources?), without nasty chunk updates being necessary, suddenly you don't have to worry about how much strain you're putting on the server/your own GPU when you upsize an array to mine faster; all you're doing is increasing the draw rate. Limiting the number of outputs to a single beam per entity would also make it significantly more difficult to use this as a way to lag and crash a server by drawing billions of beams. It would be more like a scan computer, where all modules linked count towards your draw rate from the single beam (one of the modules you selected as your output point), but you only get to place a couple salvager computers, each having on beam. I suppose at this point, there would be no more need for secondary computers tied to the salvager system.
    Yeah, it isn't as amusing as watching that asteroid crumble to dust under the immense checkerboard-power of your supersized mining rectangular prism-shaped thing, but it's better for the server not having to process those chunk updates, right? Given, perhaps there's a way to implement an asteroid visibly collapsing during the mining process without having that problem?

    Now, on how asteroids respawn: the only idea posed so far that I really dislike is the "on server restart" option. Flinging them out from stars during certain rare events, falling into orbit after arriving from out of system are both acceptable, even in combination. Whatever. As long as they don't respawn as the same object they existed as during the last server autosave anymore; it's very exploitable, but also very lame when you don't want to exploit the bug and end up getting the exact same asteroid every time you enter the system, but that object turns out to be a mined out husk with no remaining mineral worth. Having the objects in the belt actually moving around in their orbit sounds awesome, but I worry for the sanity of the server computer responsible for tracking those objects. Perhaps if that were used as a way to homogenize the belt density after a player has come through and gobbled up all the asteroids in one segment of the belt: the game chooses from some sectors on the same belt, or a directly adjacent one, and moves an asteroid or two from the more dense region to the less. Having one or two objects moving around (as a limit), in systems that are occupied anyway, wouldn't be too hard on us, right? If there aren't enough asteroids left to give each belt at least one, then let one move only rarely.
    This way, you'd begin to feel the effects of draining your system of asteroids through scarcity as you continue. And also be in more danger of getting bumped by one while it moves to its new home.
    I'd appreciate a slow "respawn" system, say introduction of asteroids on a single-digit, per-sector basis by one of the previously mentioned methods.
    Would be nice if this would all work well together with improved resource distribution and acquisition as suggested by Ithirihad

    I would say, however, that the way asteroids are always clumped together at the center of a sector, and their number/size limited, regardless of sector size is kind of silly.
     

    Winterhome

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    My thoughts are that firstly, we should make larimar asteroids a bit more common.

    Secondly, asteroid respawning needs to be implemented *properly* - perhaps on a timer of some sort? Say, every X hours, a sector respawns its asteroids - with a pretty big thing. Only asteroids that have been completely mined out need to be respawned, and when they spawn, they need to be randomly regeneratedgenerated, rather than just being pulled from whatever file the server saved them as.

    Thirdly and finally, because apparently spawn mass is already a thing, asteroid spawn mass needs to be linked to a server.cfg setting, so that server owners have control over the size of the asteroids spawned.

    Combine the three and planet mining shouldn't be anywhere near as popular as it currently is anymore.
     

    jorgekorke

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    Combine the three and planet mining shouldn't be anywhere near as popular as it currently is anymore.
    I disagree. Sure, planet mining will not be the only viable source (as it currently is), but it will still be the most used method - the only way to stop people is totally disabling the salvaging beams from mining them.

    Because the fact that you can mine and get AFK will always be a uberstrong point to encourage this activity.
     

    StormWing0

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    Another funny and laggy thing that could be done with planets is to make it so when blown up the plates shatter randomly into smaller fragments and asteroids. :) Turning the plates into shotgun blasts and needless to say on servers with collision damage on it gets deadly.
     
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    Wait a second, asteroid respawning has been removed from the game?