bounce off, angle of incedence vs damage.

[HolyCookie]

So at the moment, any sort of hull is pretty useless.
they have some more hp, and reduce dmg but in the big battles of present time that is almost useless.
so this is my idea, a bounce off rate. it should be there with regards to physics, so it will only make starmade more realistic.
so the idea is pretty simple, every hull has it's reflaction rate in per cent.
the higher the rate, the less change something will deal damage.
the following pictures will explain this more precise:

when a bullet would hit the armour at an angle of 90 degrees, straight, it will have 0% change of reflecting,
the angle at which a bullet hits the hull, will tell something about the change of bounce off.
it will be more or less like this:
90 degrees= 0%
135/45 degrees= 50%
170-180/0-10 degrees= 95-100% (depends on angle)

angle of incedence =(angle of which the projectile hits the hull)= AOI
in the formula, with AOI i mean the corresponding percentage.
now your question would be, how can you make a difference between normal hull, standard and advanched.
it can be done with a very easy formula:
normal hull (hull): AOI x 0.5
standard hull: AOI x 1
advanced hull: AOI x 1.5

let's take it to the test:
a projectile hits 3 hulls, normal, standard and advanced.
the projectile hits the 3 hulls at the exact same angle: 45 degrees (so 50% reflection change)
normal hull: 50x0.5= 25% change that the projectile will bounce off.
standard hull: 50x1= 50% change that the projectile will bounce off.
advanced hull: 50x1.5= 75% change that the projectile will bounce off.
note: all the numbers said here are a rough sketch, maybe it will change to less or to more depending on the strength.

now this, will make using hull a lot petter, because the formula for any other block will be:
AOI x 0= 0% change to bounce off.

the AOI bounce off system won't interfere with shields, only when a projectile isn't reflected the shield will be damaged.

what about beams? they already hit it parts, just look at the dmg indicator that keeps changing. only beams just hit fast.

let's count THE POSITIVE ADVANTAGES from this system:
1. players are encouraged to build with better armour blocks.
2. battles will become more tactical and less dynamic which means that you should think about your moves.
3. battles aren't only about dps and shields anymore, it will also about aiming skills, and good posisioning.
4. players are encouraged to build pretty ships, as doom cubes won't be able to reflect a single projectile. pretty ships Always have wedges and many sides, making a 90 degree hit very hard.
5. battles will be more realistic.
6. players are challenged to build special armour like this:


a few notes:
1. these numbers are all rough, if you ask me, maybe lower them a bit.
2. the "bounce off" will be a lot harder to make, i am no programmer or something, but i know it will be hard.
i'd say just get the system first and make an indicator saying: "bounced" as first release, then you can start with the long part while starmade is already using the bounce system. as for the bounce, just make it as it would be with light, let it bounce off and it will eithr hit something else or get out of range.
3. i wrote positive advantages in capitals for the people who want to find it easily

 

[Winterhome]

Bullet bouncing is really, really easy. I've already done it in games that I didn't even have the source code to. Just flip the projectile's velocity over the surface normal of whatever it's hitting. Make an angle threshold check of some sort. But I'm not sure how I feel about it in a large scale space game - most of what we're using are energy weapons, and they don't really care about angles - just about dumping heat and head-on concussive force.

Anyhow, angled armor is already very useful - at least, when you're not going against missiles, because missiles are stupid. RIP cannons.

If you make a wedge shaped ship and manage to keep its nose pointed at the enemy at all times, they have to go through five to twenty times more armor to hit systems than they would if they aim at the top, bottom, or sides of your ship. Passive Piercing effect further increases armor, making this kind of setup absolutely ridiculously good against cannons.

 

[TheOmega]

What if the percentage chance to bounce off was simply added to the armor amount? Or hulls could theoretically be made of shiny things that are weird.

 

[HolyCookie]

Bullet bouncing is really, really easy. I've already done it in games that I didn't even have the source code to. Just flip the projectile's velocity over the surface normal of whatever it's hitting. Make an angle threshold check of some sort. But I'm not sure how I feel about it in a large scale space game - most of what we're using are energy weapons, and they don't really care about angles - just about dumping heat and head-on concussive force.

well, maybe you already made something with a bouncing bullets, but was it a 3d game?
more over, was the object also moving in 3 dimensions?
because that could make it a lot harder to exualy bounce something off well, instead of bouncing it off and flying into the same missile.

well, you say the weapons are heat-based, but nothing says it.
only the beam is heat-based, not even sure about that because those sort of beams dont really exist.
only Industrial cutting beams but the are not proper weapons.
cannon is totaly not heat based, because a cannon shoots bullets and the only heat-based thing in bullets is the launch of it using the pressure that is created by the mini explosion.
missiles, are hard to tell if you can call it heat-based.
because they don't give an explosion, i'd say the only heat they produce is their thruster.
so it is a real possibility, this also makes damage pulse impossible to reflect, first of all it has all degrees o hiiting, and it is electric based.
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What if the percentage chance to bounce off was simply added to the armor amount? Or hulls could theoretically be made of shiny things that are weird.

adding armour is totaly different then bouncing, because when something bounces it can still hit something.
also adding armour is boring with regards to bouncing.
bouncing effects are more realistic than better armour.
also it will include luck and aiming with bouncing effect, armour buff doesnt include that

 

[Winterhome]

well, maybe you already made something with a bouncing bullets, but was it a 3d game?
more over, was the object also moving in 3 dimensions?
because that could make it a lot harder to exualy bounce something off well, instead of bouncing it off and flying into the same missile

Not really. The math is the same on a 2D plane, a 3D plane, a 4D plane, and so on. You just keep using a larger and larger vector for the velocity of the projectile and the surface normal (a line directly perpendicular to the surface plane) you're bouncing off of.

That's just a few small lines of code.

 

[HolyCookie]

Not really. The math is the same on a 2D plane, a 3D plane, a 4D plane, and so on. You just keep using a larger and larger vector for the velocity of the projectile and the surface normal you're bouncing off of it.

hmm well, maybe dimensions don't matter then but movement does make it harder right?
it would be logic to me when something is moving the vector changes too right? or am i thinking too hard and is implanting this exualy
pretty easy? as in 5-10 hour work done?

 

[Winterhome]

hmm well, maybe dimensions don't matter then but movement does make it harder right?
it would be logic to me when something is moving the vector changes too right? or am i thinking too hard and is implanting this exualy
pretty easy? as in 5-10 hour work done?

Try 5 minutes.
That's just a few lines of code you're putting in front of the damage dealing bit.

The vector for velocity doesn't change in simple projectiles - they spawn at a given directional velocity and stay at it until the projectile object is deleted. You're not calculating it during movement - you're calculating at the moment of impact. No calculus here. Even with missiles and such, you don't need to worry about it, since you just need to take the velocity of the projectile at that very moment.

The problem is whether armor bouncing is something that would happen in a soft Sci-Fi space series. We might see a mod that implements this come out whenever the Modding API is released, but that's about it.

 

[Jaaskinal]

It might not be a ton of code, but it might cause lag. I'm not talking about a simple fighter with ~two outputs hitting something and requesting checks about the angle of what it's hitting, I'm talking about a waffle board that's 100% cannon/cannon. Having >500 projectiles hitting ten times a second each requesting that line of code.

 

[HolyCookie]

Try 5 minutes.
That's just a few lines of code you're putting in front of the damage dealing bit.

The vector for velocity doesn't change in simple projectiles - they spawn at a given directional velocity and stay at it until the projectile object is deleted. You're not calculating it during movement - you're calculating at the moment of impact. No calculus here. Even with missiles and such, you don't need to worry about it, since you just need to take the velocity of the projectile at that very moment.

The problem is whether armor bouncing is something that would happen in a soft Sci-Fi space series. We might see a mod that implements this come out whenever the Modding API is released, but that's about it.

lol wait whut, then hehe.
this bouncing can be a feature done in about a hour, counting the conversation about what numbers and percentages it would have.
the only reason they wouldn't do this is because they don't want to, no other exuse possible!

It might not be a ton of code, but it might cause lag. I'm not talking about a simple fighter with ~two outputs hitting something and requesting checks about the angle of what it's hitting, I'm talking about a waffle board that's 100% cannon/cannon. Having >500 projectiles hitting ten times a second each requesting that line of code.

when reading this, i agreed but then i read it again and disagreed.
with first looks you would think it will cause lag, but when you fire 500 cannons at nothing, you have more bullets flying around then when you shoot at armour, because e.g 50% will penetrate. this makes exualy lag it less then shooting at nothing i'd say.

 

[Megacrafter127]

when reading this, i agreed but then i read it again and disagreed.
with first looks you would think it will cause lag, but when you fire 500 cannons at nothing, you have more bullets flying around then when you shoot at armour, because e.g 50% will penetrate. this makes exualy lag it less then shooting at nothing i'd say.

The number of projectiles flying around matters less than the number of projectiles interacting with something, regardless of how that interaction plays out.

 

[HolyCookie]

The number of projectiles flying around matters less than the number of projectiles interacting with something, regardless of how that interaction plays out.

the bullets interact with air :D
anyways they would only interact 1 time with a hull
thats the same as normally, only now there are 2 options to choose from as interections.
would still result in the same amount of interactions with hull, exept if the reflected bullet hits other armour, but that would be only a little bit

 

[Reilly Reese]

Lets be honest here. The cannons are/used to be Anti-Matter Cannons. I doubt any weapon called that would ever have its delivery system or projectile weak enough to actually have the projectile "bounce" off of objects.

 

[CyberTao]

the bullets interact with air :D
anyways they would only interact 1 time with a hull
thats the same as normally, only now there are 2 options to choose from as interections.
would still result in the same amount of interactions with hull, exept if the reflected bullet hits other armour, but that would be only a little bit

First, there is no air in space.

Second, there is a different. You are adding a new check before damage is done, meaning there is a large interaction, which would take more (Might be small, but still more) to calculate.

the only reason they wouldn't do this is because they don't want to, no other exuse possible!

That is still a valid excuse.

 

[HolyCookie]

First, there is no air in space.

Second, there is a different. You are adding a new check before damage is done, meaning there is a large interaction, which would take more (Might be small, but still more) to calculate.


That is still a valid excuse.

kinda late reaction, i was banned because i got sucked up into the faction habits :P
but whatever, we've got a new hp ystem so this thread is closed if you ask meh
it was a nice conversation

 

[Lecic]

I think this would be cool, but I don't think it should be the default option. All the extra calculations from a rapid cannon shotgun would potentially be quite large. It also nerfs cannons a bit. So, for players that want it, it's there, but it isn't the default option because it comes with problems, like how collision damage and break-off currently are.