Gigantism - Why build better when you can build bigger

[Winterhome]

Aren't small ships meant to avoid the fire of larger ships by out turning them?

That only really works with atmospheric style dogfights.

In Starmade, more and more often we're seeing sector sizes growing bigger and bigger. Engagement ranges are now measured in kilometers. You can't really outmaneuver something when you're at that distance - you can only dodge gunfire with minor velocity changes and by being too small of a target to easily track. Semi-Newtonian physics and all make maneuverability a difficult thing to work in properly. Of course, it would be simple enough if we removed most strafing, except for ships that're specialized for it.

 

[Keptick]

removed most strafing

Sooo, you're saying that combat should always be head-on? As in normal ship always has to face that giant brick's guns head-on because it can't strafe that slower cube?

Straffing is the action of moving sideways to mess up enemy aim (usually) or move while still keeping guns on target, I fail to see how removing that will help, at all. Unless of course you meant kitting on sector borders or back pedaling, which I agree sucks.

 

[Winterhome]

Sooo, you're saying that combat should always be head-on? As in normal ship always has to face that giant brick's guns head-on because it can't wtrafe that slower cube?

No.

With Newtonian flight, you don't always have to move forwards. Accelerate, then turn and fire while moving laterally in relation to your ship.

Not to mention that I said most strafing, not all. Easiest way to make it more reasonable is to make movement require thrusters facing the direction you're attempting to move in.

...And forward facing guns aren't the only method of fighting, either.

 

[Kyoretsu]

I wonder if a flanking penalty could solve this problem. If we think of a shield system like a blanket that self repairs by pulling from higher concentration zones of energy to plug holes until it's 100% recharge rate can be applied, then finding a way to implement a flank penalty would increase small craft effectiveness. Large shield buffers would start to buckle under a swarm of smaller craft in large numbers. Which is precisely how small craft should engage larger ships. If you take a 100 mass ship against a 1,000,000 mass ship, you are SUPPOSED to lose. But if you take a hundred 100 mass ships against a million mass ship, then you even the odds.

 

[Winterhome]

I wonder if a flanking penalty could solve this problem. If we think of a shield system like a blanket that self repairs by pulling from higher concentration zones of energy to plug holes until it's 100% recharge rate can be applied, then finding a way to implement a flank penalty would increase small craft effectiveness. Large shield buffers would start to buckle under a swarm of smaller craft in large numbers. Which is precisely how small craft should engage larger ships. If you take a 100 mass ship against a 1,000,000 mass ship, you are SUPPOSED to lose. But if you take a hundred 100 mass ships against a million mass ship, then you even the odds.

With large quantities of drones, you can *already* totally mangle a much larger ship, assuming it doesn't just run from the drones.

The more drones you use, the lower the percentage of the victim's mass you need to use to kill them.

 

[Kyoretsu]

With large quantities of drones, you can *already* totally mangle a much larger ship, assuming it doesn't just run from the drones.

The more drones you use, the lower the percentage of the victim's mass you need to use to kill them.

I, personally, haven't run into these carriers that have large quantities of drones, so I trust in your greater judgement.

If it works that well, then I see no reason to remodel the system. That is how small vs large combat is supposed to work.

 

[Winterhome]

I, personally, haven't run into these carriers that have large quantities of drones, so I trust in your greater judgement.

If it works that well, then I see no reason to remodel the system. That is how small vs large combat is supposed to work.

They're just an enormous pain in the ass to set up and use outside of an arena environment, and they're ineffective in open space because people can just run from the moronic AI. Those are seriously the only reasons nobody uses them often.

*in* an arena environment, though, they tend to be absolutely horrifying, though.

Spoiler

Minor example: This was not using a full size drone carrier, and the drones were less than smart, but they were keeping up fairly major damage per minute via cannon-pulse-punch and missile-beam combos.

 

[Kyoretsu]

They're just an enormous pain in the ass to set up and use outside of an arena environment, and they're ineffective in open space because people can just run from the moronic AI. Those are seriously the only reasons nobody uses them often.

*in* an arena environment, though, they tend to be absolutely horrifying, though.

Spoiler

Aren't there ways to stop people from running, now? Power draining and all that fun? Surely in open space we can find a way to make it viable.

I enjoy huge ships. I also only enjoy RPPVP, which is the tiniest niche I can think of. I love sitting on my bridge watching my turrets and drones fight. If I were limited in my scope, I don't think I would play anymore.

 

[Winterhome]

Aren't there ways to stop people from running, now? Power draining and all that fun? Surely in open space we can find a way to make it viable.

I enjoy huge ships. I also only enjoy RPPVP, which is the tiniest niche I can think of. I love sitting on my bridge watching my turrets and drones fight. If I were limited in my scope, I don't think I would play anymore.

Not particularly. You have to worry about jump drives, and the only way to make Stop and Pull effects viable on ships is to make them your main weapon, thus nerfing your own damage potential.

Really, though, drones would be more effective in an open environment if the AI were simply less awful at flying. It feels like AI tries to circle strafe at maximum weapons range when fighting, which is fine against stationary targets, but against a moving target, there's a very good chance that the moving target will simply move out of the AI's detection range.

...also, jump drive cancellation devices would be glorious.

 

[Kyoretsu]

Not particularly. You have to worry about jump drives, and the only way to make Stop and Pull effects viable on ships is to make them your main weapon, thus nerfing your own damage potential.

Really, though, drones would be more effective in an open environment if the AI were simply less awful at flying. It feels like AI tries to circle strafe at maximum weapons range when fighting, which is fine against stationary targets, but against a moving target, there's a very good chance that the moving target will simply move out of the AI's detection range.

...also, jump drive cancellation devices would be glorious.

Oh my god, yes. Interdiction spheres.

 

[Jake_Lancia]

Oh my god, yes. Interdiction spheres.

There's a thread for that: HERE. :P

 

[Ithirahad]

It would also help if charging and using jump drive nullified shields... That way, running away and using jump drive isn't always such a great idea. (Cloaking could do the same, but that's another issue.)

 

[godmars]

But if you take a hundred 100 mass ships against a million mass ship

I think TC's point is there shouldn't be many ships of that caliber running around to begin with, and if they do they should have some tangible draw back besides build time. Such as, in a situation like this, the ship that is 10,000 times larger than the other shouldn't behave like a massively-scaled up fighter

 

[Kyoretsu]

I think TC's point is there shouldn't be many ships of that caliber running around to begin with, and if they do they should have some tangible draw back besides build time. Such as, in a situation like this, the ship that is 10,000 times larger than the other shouldn't behave like a massively-scaled up fighter

I can agree with that. Though their turning radius is pitiful. That's precisely why I have been so into RPPVP though, because the idea of making the whole ship out of weapon systems gets thrown right out of the door. Min/Maxing has always been super lame, from DnD, to Starmade. But I can't imagine why we would limit those that WANT to do that, you know? There is no one play style that is correct.

 

[russweis]

One think I have seen on servers is, bigger ships can maneuver just as good as smaller ships but with more fire power and defense. I think that there needs to be some Cons to big ships and some Pros to small ships. I don't want to see a fighter take out a Tighten but id like to see a few cruisers team up on a battle ship and have have a good 5-10min battle.

 

[Chances_Ghost]

i think overdrive is probably essential for engaging ships larger than itself... prevent the large ship from just back peddling.

 

[russweis]

iv been building a lot of smaller ships mainly for fun. i limit my fighters to 3oo mass and frigates 3000 mas (10x the size). I can take the fighters out fast. they are not a threat 1v1 infarct i can tank them. now if i pit 10 fighters to a frigate they can peal the shields down pretty far, but there not an even match. so its more cost effective to just build one bigger ship. I think smaller ships need a bit more of a damage buff to make them able to hit bigger ships. and ass chances_ghost said over drive is essential however, a smaller ship is hard to fit the power to run a gun like that.

 

[AtraUnam]

now if i pit 10 fighters to a frigate they can peal the shields down pretty far, but there not an even match. so its more cost effective to just build one bigger ship.

May I ask how you conducted your test? because months of community testing would suggest that multiple smaller ships (usually drones) can handily destroy a single ship with a mass equal to, or even greater than, their combined mass.

 

[Winterhome]

May I ask how you conducted your test? because months of community testing would suggest that multiple smaller ships (usually drones) can handily destroy a single ship with a mass equal to, or even greater than, their combined mass.

I'm more worried about the fighter drones.

A lot of people don't put nearly as high of efficiency into their fighters as they should for effective drone functioning - too much hull, too little pew pew and power gen.

 

[russweis]

I'm more worried about the fighter drones.

A lot of people don't put nearly as high of efficiency into their fighters as they should for effective drone functioning - too much hull, too little pew pew and power gen.

Your probly right. To be honest I have nothing to look at to know if my ships are good. I don't know what a good ship is. IV asked people long ago for a few ships i can dissect and get a basic standard for ships. Is what id need is one or two ships in each wait class to give an average basses of. Yes IV downloaded other ships and looked at them but i don't know if there good.