Difficulty progress curve: a bunch of ideas

[Thalanor]

Hi all,
first and foremost I have already talked to the council about this, but back then the idea wasn't fully fleshed out yet, so I figured I'd compile it into a coherent list. Also note that all points belong together, so please judge them as a whole, not individually.

I suggest the following steps:

1. Separate general AI accuracy (player drones and turrets) and pirate AI accuracy in the config. This will allow additional difficulty tuning.

2. Hold a "pirate community contest". Players could submit their ships from community content in varying diverse size classes ranging from isanth-size fighter to 20-30k mass. Judgement criteria should first and foremost be aesthetics, and after that AI compatibility. Winning ships (there should be at least several "winners" per class) go towards default public blueprints (unless removed by the administrator). These are also usable by pirates! (Note: point below is very important)

3. New pirate difficulty setting in the config (separate from pirate accuracy and player AI accuracy settings). This setting would be a percentage with a default value of e.g. 50. Whenever a pirate would normally spawn, the game would look at all player piloted ships in sector loading range and select the one with the smallest mass (alternative: any compromise between lowest and highest mass, or even complex formulae to take a whole fleet into account - like for example (sum of mass)*(some factor)).. It would then multiply this value with the pirate difficulty setting and use the result as upper mass boundary for the possible pirate ship selections.

4. New pirate difficulty growth setting in the config (separate from all previous). This is a floating-point value between 0 and a reasonable number. This value times the distance in systems from the universe spawn would be added on top of the pirate difficulty percentage mentioned above. If multiple players are affected, the lowest distance to spawn of any player is relevant (alternative: any compromise between lowest and highest mass, or even complex formulae to take a whole fleet into account - like for example (sum of mass)*(some factor)).


Advantages:
- Players would experience progress even in singleplayer. The bigger the ship, the bigger pirates will be spawning - which will drop more loot and in turn enable the player to upgrade their ship again.
- Very distant systems would be extremely dangerous (depending on the masses of the largest available blueprints). They would also be were experienced players organized in fleets would hunt for maximum loot - far away from the newbies.


Additions and alterations (as suggested in this thread):
- Separate settings for the trading guild.
- Other possible formulae to set a base mass limit for fleets, including those that go up to or even over the maximum mass of any ship in range.


Example 1: Player A (newbie) flies a ship with 50 mass. The pirate difficulty is 50%. The newbie is still at spawn, so distance to the spawn is 0 systems. As such, only pirates with a mass lower than 50*(50/100) = 25 would be able to spawn in any sector that is loaded by this newbie. Assume the blueprints available to pirates are 200, 500, 1500 and 7500 mass, the newbie would be completely safe from any pirates.

Example 2: Player B (theDestr0y0r) flies a ship with 10000 mass. The pirate difficulty is 50%. Player B is currently in a system 8 systems away from spawn, and pirate difficulty growth is set at 2.0. The effective pirate difficulty is now (50+8*2.0)% = 66%. The upper boundary for pirate spawns is now 6600 mass. Assume the blueprints available to pirates are 200, 500, 1500 and 7500 mass, only the first three could possibly spawn.

Example 3: Player A is within chunk loading range of player B. Assume the smallest distance is 8 systems and the pirate difficulty is 50%. The effective pirate difficulty would again be 66%, but it would be multipied with player A's newb shuttle - as such the mass boundary for pirate spawns would be 50*(66/100) = 33, and no pirates would spawn for either player.

 

[thakyZ]

I love these suggestions, but with part one it would not matter when fleets are in. But for now it would be great! And yes there should be more of a diverse group of pirates other than just Isanth's with different weapon types so some could be harder to kill than others. Pirate difficulty settings could be good but we also should have one for Trading Guild ships. And four sounds good and again a setting for the Trading Guild would be great too.

 

[Megacrafter127]

4. New pirate difficulty growth setting in the config (separate from all previous). This is a floating-point value between 0 and a reasonable number. This value times the distance in systems from the universe spawn would be added on top of the pirate difficulty percentage mentioned above. If multiple players are affected, the lowest distance to spawn of any player is relevant (alternative: any compromise between lowest and highest mass, or even complex formulae to take a whole fleet into account - like for example (sum of mass)*(fleet factor)).

I agree, that a difficulty growth is likely necessary, but the way you propose it MAY* not be the best way.[unless you mean the value is on a per-sector basis, which I don't think is what you are referring to, since you include multiple players being affected, which wouldn't be necessary if it was on a per-sector basis]


*prediction based on assumptions gathered from the game's behavior and some code snippets.

As for the other points, I personally don't see much of a problem there.

 

[Master1398]

Sounds quite nicely!

But before we get a pirate community contest could we get a ship blueprint system similar to the station blueprints?
I mean: If one would design a fearsome badass pirate ship for that contest, wouldn't that look quite stupid if the trading guild would fly these - instead their fleet should consist of cargo transporters, salvagers and a few fighters to defend the transporters.
I beg you schema. Implement that!

 

[Thalanor]

Megacrafter127 yeah I meant per-system, although naturally any configurable way to increase the difficulty percentage with distance from spawn would work.

Master1398 yes, both a distinction between TG and pirate settings as well as their usable blueprints would be in order.

 

[Kaamio]

I made a reply on this subject on the dynamic galaxies thread.

Tl;dr
Manage npc spawns by amount and tonnage, use galactic hotspots to determine local activity level for the faction and modify spawn size with it. Allow admins to remove/add hotspots.

I think this could use a sort of threat level/hotspot system to determine npc activity. This is kind of game deep mechanic suggesion I guess, I hope it might give some ideas but I understand if it's not what you want to invest in.

Threat level of a sector could be determined by its distance from nearest hotspot sector, with hotspots having variable intensity... for example, 10 sectors away from level 7 hotspot could have threat level of 5,5 or whaterver the numbers turn into. That would be used to determine npc spawn probability and fleet power, providing a scaling difficulty and diversifying galaxy even before getting ai factions running.

Npc spawns could be handled by randomising number and mass, modified by local threat level in order to create noob zone at safe levels (maybe lone, old model ishants at safest areas), almost safe with new ishants escorted by an old one, to level 10 hotspot that could spawn a fleet of 12 ships massing something like 50000 mass total, unleashing community monster warships. Or even worse should server mess around with config files I'd really want to see npc fleets that use mixed ship sizes, such as a 2 cruisers with 3 destroyers or cruiser and 5 fighters. Not sure how to make them pick different ships within mass and amount limits though.

To clarify, I think that a galaxy ought to have only few hotspots and not all of them very high. Point would be to have something to build towards and to allow either vanilla game to have some rather powerful warships in the pirate spawn list, or maybe put a link to community pirate packs on the launcher page if keeping a relatively up to date npc ship pool is not convenient.

However, one of the drawbacks of a galaxy with great difficulty differences is that you'd want to have a base of operations near "your point in the curve", where you could reasonably end up half a galaxy away from your initial base, and fortifying a base that can withstand enemies that challenge you can easily become a chore. I'd suggest a simplified cargo transfer to solve the base moving issue, add a button in storage UI "transfer contents to docked ship/station/carrier". A lot of this game is simplified or abstracted in terms of building (gun and engine shape or positioning doesn't matter, generators are abstracted) so simplification in regards of tedious moving of items shouldn't matter... right? No need to code item conduits or loading bays in my opinion.

Hotspot system as a whole could be probably easily converted to use with mineral density for planets to create richer areas, or used eventually with npc wars when tied to their stations or controlled systems... I'm not sure if this is the bestest way of determining area activity, but I think it's worth a thought one of it's strengths is that once hotspots are coded, you could just randomise some in game to add some content and test the system while getting ahead on the faction wars stuff.

Scanner could be used to detect threat levels anywhere and maybe ore density levels in owned systems...

 

[shadowulf]

Wholeheartly agree

 

[zigyzigy]

Like the idea, though I do think that difficulty based on distance from the center of the galaxy should also apply (actual difficulty, not just density of pirate bases) along with the density of more valuable resources to give the game a sense of progression that currently is almost non-existent.

 

[Sven_The_Slayer]

I've never been a fan of the "harder because farther" idea. I want my galaxy to feel real and alive. Just because you are x distance from the core doesn't mean the ships should be larger. It also doesn't encourage exploration because you know what you get and punishes people who like to live on the fringe. I think any ship can spawn anywhere is a good idea and progression comes from who they choose to attack. Pirates would mostly ignore small craft but larger ships represent a payday. If you are dumb enough to pick a fight you can't win then that is your fault but the spawns shouldn't baby us. I would also like to see zones of space where some areas may have a much higher pirate presence and others more neutral. This way pirate hunters can have fun and those who want to live a simpler life can find a quiet corner of the universe. Of course that huge planet eating ship would make a nice target for pirates so if you did come across a larger pirate ship then you better know how to defend yourself or flee in terror.

I do like the idea of holding a ship contest but I really think we need, at the very least, separate Trade Guild and Pirate ships.
Also very much support for splitting accuracy settings.

 

[Megacrafter127]

The curve shouldn't be as simple as distance from spawn/center of nearest galaxy.
I recommend having certain random sectors be 'hostile-hotspots', which have a higher difficulty, which also radiates out with the distance. The difficulty peak of such a hotspot should depend on a random value from the standard minimum difficulty to the maximum difficulty, which is min+sqrt(distanceToNearestGalaxyCenter).
The difficulty of these hotspots may or may not be able to change over time, depending on player-activity nearby? (high PvE reduces difficulty, high PvP increases)

 

[Thalanor]

I've never been a fan of the "harder because farther" idea. I want my galaxy to feel real and alive. Just because you are x distance from the core doesn't mean the ships should be larger. It also doesn't encourage exploration because you know what you get and punishes people who like to live on the fringe. I think any ship can spawn anywhere is a good idea and progression comes from who they choose to attack. Pirates would mostly ignore small craft but larger ships represent a payday. If you are dumb enough to pick a fight you can't win then that is your fault but the spawns shouldn't baby us. I would also like to see zones of space where some areas may have a much higher pirate presence and others more neutral. This way pirate hunters can have fun and those who want to live a simpler life can find a quiet corner of the universe. Of course that huge planet eating ship would make a nice target for pirates so if you did come across a larger pirate ship then you better know how to defend yourself or flee in terror.

I do like the idea of holding a ship contest but I really think we need, at the very least, separate Trade Guild and Pirate ships.
Also very much support for splitting accuracy settings.

Manual adding of hotspots and highsec zones would indeed be a nice tool for an admin who knows what they do.

By setting the increase parameter to 0 (can be default) and the difficulty parameter to -1%, you would be able to replicate the current way of things 1:1. The gradual increase is meant more for server owners who want to concentrate player actions in one or a few galaxies to save memory.

The curve shouldn't be as simple as distance from spawn/center of nearest galaxy.
I recommend having certain random sectors be 'hostile-hotspots', which have a higher difficulty, which also radiates out with the distance. The difficulty peak of such a hotspot should depend on a random value from the standard minimum difficulty to the maximum difficulty, which is min+sqrt(distanceToNearestGalaxyCenter).
The difficulty of these hotspots may or may not be able to change over time, depending on player-activity nearby? (high PvE reduces difficulty, high PvP increases)

The hotspot idea seems to be very popular, and I think it is a good one, too. Maybe have hotspots contribute the majority of the difficulty, but there is also a rising base difficulty working in the background with distance from spawn?

There is not much to be gained when people can fly out perpetually without any need to work on a suitable ship first (kind of like unbordered minecraft worlds where noone ever meets). It would basically be a "soft border" if the difficulty increase setting was low enough to be unnoticeable in the 3x3x3 galaxies around spawn, but slowly crept up to a notable challenge increase if you were to be hunting in the fringes of known space, half a day worth of constant jumping and wormholing away from any other life signature. There can be monstrous AI titans out there, where barely any mortal ever sees them - but the fearless hunters who venture out far enough will see them and, if prepared, live to tell the tale (and use the loot) :p

 

[Megacrafter127]

There is not much to be gained when people can fly out perpetually

Except the people who don't want to be found unless they want to be found. :P

 

[Thalanor]

If you choose to be safe from PvP, wouldn't it be nice to face a bigger PvE threat (and corresponding loot upgrade)?

 

[Sven_The_Slayer]

If you choose to be safe from PvP, wouldn't it be nice to face a bigger PvE threat (and corresponding loot upgrade)?

That could be done by having larger ships spawn regardless of what you are flying and have sense of progression come from who they decide to attack. I want the universe to feel real and not like it revolves around me.

 

[Psy_commando]

Those ideas are really interesting. Well, besides the get farther from the galaxy center for more pain one...

I think that there might be another interesting way to deal with pirate difficulty.

Given pirates aren't really a global faction, and just bandits, perhaps each pirate station within a sector could be a mini pirate faction.

That way, depending on the sub-faction's station placement, we could determine their financial means. For example, if its close to trade guild trade routes, they could be significantly richer than other pirate stations, and in turn field medium sized capitals and/or a bigger fleet, and maybe do more raids ?

Of course this would need some polishing, but it sounds pretty interesting to me.

If you choose to be safe from PvP, wouldn't it be nice to face a bigger PvE threat (and corresponding loot upgrade)?

About loot upgrade.. Its hard to "upgrade" the loot right now, frankly ^^;

We'd have to give loot a value first, introducing some kind of scarcity, and limiting storage space. Then there could be an upgrade. Because, I mean, right now its just plentiful and you can spawn more at will !

The only thing keeping you from collecting a lot is the awkward loot drop and pickup system.

 

[Kaamio]

Good to see these ideas getting at least some attention, though I'd think progression would be more prominently requested feature...

Loot progression is one that I missed earlier, I guess I didn't really consider it a thing as it's not anywhere near implementation. Perhaps the block drops could be linked to the spawned ship's cargo capacity and/or mass (and really toned down a lot, maybe to 1/10 of what it's now to start with) and maybe even more to the point, some sort of loot list so that they don't drop useless crap so much (placeolders, burned dirt etc) and limits to value because it's pretty silly how they sometimes drop few stacks of 500 weapon computers which is worth like 15 millions each.

If we go with some form of hotspot system and local activity levels, those could easily modify loot drops... however, I think salvage should be the greater source of wealth if there are any bigger pirate spawns. After all, the ships we kill are made of precious blocks we want, so we'd want to kill them without too much exess destruction. Having the pure loot drops much lesser (and going straight to ship inventory) would probably lead to more specialised "resource hunter" warship that tries to not completely atomize the victim. Of course, you can just build bigger to have everything you need, but that's not really a part of this suggestion

 

[Psy_commando]

Good to see these ideas getting at least some attention, though I'd think progression would be more prominently requested feature...

Loot progression is one that I missed earlier, I guess I didn't really consider it a thing as it's not anywhere near implementation. Perhaps the block drops could be linked to the spawned ship's cargo capacity and/or mass (and really toned down a lot, maybe to 1/10 of what it's now to start with) and maybe even more to the point, some sort of loot list so that they don't drop useless crap so much (placeolders, burned dirt etc) and limits to value because it's pretty silly how they sometimes drop few stacks of 500 weapon computers which is worth like 15 millions each.

If we go with some form of hotspot system and local activity levels, those could easily modify loot drops... however, I think salvage should be the greater source of wealth if there are any bigger pirate spawns. After all, the ships we kill are made of precious blocks we want, so we'd want to kill them without too much exess destruction. Having the pure loot drops much lesser (and going straight to ship inventory) would probably lead to more specialised "resource hunter" warship that tries to not completely atomize the victim. Of course, you can just build bigger to have everything you need, but that's not really a part of this suggestion

Yeah, defining item stacks limits in the storage blocks and inventory would really help here !

And yeah, that's one thing that bug me with how the cargo is dropped into space all the time.. Huge drops, consisting of mostly junks you're wondering why the pirates would even carry around. Things that shouldn't even be in the game anymore, like the placeholders, actually!

And I agree, its indeed much easier to just capture the ship later on with its cargo, if that's what you're saying. ( There are some huge, basic UI ergonomy issues in the current system though.. ) And if you really want to just grab their loot from space, you could then just blow their storage container, which is always at the same place, and with little protection. That way you got some more logical options on how to gather loot.
And yes, loot gathered in a ship should really go into the ship's inventory first, then in the player's.