Read by Council [Logic] One-Block Logic

[Myxam]

Perhaps this is really unneeded and this is the Vyvanse talking but...

I've noticed that complex Logic systems can take up a lot of room, and are nearly impossible to implement on smaller ships. Things like Detector based Airlocks, ship hit detection, Drone Command, Rail Systems. These things take up a lot of the space budget in a ship -- in some cases enough to push it up in weight class.

I know there's efforts to compact these systems, however most of the Logic Systems in game are either Simple -- Input is transferred to Output, or complex to the point where it requires several blocks of Logic. Most of these systems (the majority from my brief look through everything) are non-combat or simply aesthetic or time-saving.

So what I propose is to compact necessary blocks into a single block which opens a Menu when activated. Blocks not affected by this would be blocks that take direct input (Activation, Trigger, Steps, and later buttons).

How it would function is much like the Plugin system in Unity or UDK. You start with a base 'block' which serves as your input (any connection that generates an input) and you are able to branch from this root, towards another 'block' as your output.

An Example of the Plugin System.

(This one map is a mess I'll grant but it shows the concept)

And, Or, Not, Toggles, Delays, & Switches would be compacted into this menu.

What does this do?

This will reduce block counts for Logic Systems universally. Create a visual system that allows players to easily look at and decipher the Logic System, which will make instruction simpler. Create hacking gameplay and allow for more complex circuits without the need for massive amounts of space, and will increase the availability of these complex circuits for smaller ships, and decrease the needed space budgets for logic on Larger Ships.
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[Malacodor]

This would be a great thing if there are no performance issues and if development of this feature doesn't take away too much time from other features.

 

[NeonSturm]

Perhaps this is really unneeded and this is the Vyvanse talking but...

I've noticed that complex Logic systems can take up a lot of room, and are nearly impossible to implement on smaller ships. Things like Detector based Airlocks, ship hit detection, Drone Command, Rail Systems. These things take up a lot of the space budget in a ship -- in some cases enough to push it up in weight class.

I know there's efforts to compact these systems, however most of the Logic Systems in game are either Simple -- Input is transferred to Output, or complex to the point where it requires several blocks of Logic. Most of these systems (the majority from my brief look through everything) are non-combat or simply aesthetic or time-saving.

So what I propose is to compact necessary blocks into a single block which opens a Menu when activated. Blocks not affected by this would be blocks that take direct input (Activation, Trigger, Steps, and later buttons).

How it would function is much like the Plugin system in Unity or UDK. You start with a base 'block' which serves as your input (any connection that generates an input) and you are able to branch from this root, towards another 'block' as your output.

An Example of the Plugin System.

(This one map is a mess I'll grant but it shows the concept)

And, Or, Not, Toggles, Delays, & Switches would be compacted into this menu.

What does this do?

This will reduce block counts for Logic Systems universally. Create a visual system that allows players to easily look at and decipher the Logic System, which will make instruction simpler. Create hacking gameplay and allow for more complex circuits without the need for massive amounts of space, and will increase the availability of these complex circuits for smaller ships, and decrease the needed space budgets for logic on Larger Ships.
​

HEY!!! I wanted to implement this myself... I already have a console-accessible Forth-language -like implementation...
Just don't say I've stole this from SM when I will finish it sometimes in my life ^^

I plan on giving it 1 mass for each branch or join. (all but the first input/output)

 

[Viridis00]

I was thinking of this as well OP. This would help keep things a lot more simple and uncluttered even for a large ship let alone the small ships who have no room in the first place.

 

[OvermindDL1]

I like keeping the blocks in-world, and although a FORTH block would be fascinating, it does not seem to fit the feel to me. If anything a block that you could put multiple logic (and only logic) blocks in to and wire them up would be useful if anything, though rendering that would not fit the style of anything else currently. What if you could build a logic system in to a new ship (perhaps a new ship core type that only supports logic?), that could be stuffed in to a single block, could optimize the internals of it so it runs a good bit faster as well). Random ideas, none seem to resonate with me though... More complex logic gates would be nice to have though, for both size and speed considerations.

 

[hunterRAE]

I like the idea, but one thing I thought of when I read this came to mind, if you blueprint it, how is it going to stay inside the block? Like the storage modules, it would not keep its contents, rendering this inoperable from a blueprint standpoint. For this to work, their needs to be more worked on stored items. Like OvermindDL1 stated, from current game components, it does not really fit right.

 

[NeonSturm]

The game's current problem is the scale. It's massive counter-immersive to have an air-locks circuitry be bigger than the earliest computers in the real life.
One way to counter this would be to fix the view-point on the player model (right now it has it's eyes in it's chest, not in the head) and upscale it by 2.

Just build everything (corridors, etc) twice or four times as big and pretend your character also is.
Then you can build a 4x4x4 hollow box with 2x2 holes in each face and put your circuitry into it.

 

[Ithirahad]

The game's current problem is the scale. It's massive counter-immersive to have an air-locks circuitry be bigger than the earliest computers in the real life.
One way to counter this would be to fix the view-point on the player model (right now it has it's eyes in it's chest, not in the head) and upscale it by 2.

Just build everything (corridors, etc) twice or four times as big and pretend your character also is.
Then you can build a 4x4x4 hollow box with 2x2 holes in each face and put your circuitry into it.

But then planets end up tiny, and it brings up tons of other problems... I think we can just use the original suggestion, thank you very much. The first-person viewpoint has to be pulled up to eye level rather than neck level, though, but that won't fix scale issues on its own...

 

[nightwalker_007]

I've suggested this before. This would cause less server load since the logic block could be compiled and processed without having to update multiple blocks in game. I've also suggested that the block have multiple inputs and outputs: Upon hitting "V" or"C" a number would be displayed on the block indicating which input or output channel was selected. Multiple signals tied to the same channel would act as if they were all piped into an OR gate.

Sheesh, an 8-input logic block could be mapped to a 256-byte truth table, which is very fast to process. Of course, that's for pure logic, and not.. Give the block 8 inputs, 8 outputs, and up to 8 internal flip-flops, and we're good. No matter how complex your logic is, it can be reduced to a 256-byte truth table, with 8 (or one) byte to store the flip-flop states. Clock pulses would have to be external though.

Still, having over 28 years of programming experience (ugh.. that's a big number), I'm a huge fan of a scriptable computer that can even interface with display blocks.

 

[Kenshkrix]

No matter how complex your logic is, it can be reduced to a 256-byte truth table, with 8 (or one) byte to store the flip-flop states.

I'm pretty sure this is incorrect, but that's because some people want to use their computer to play a game in which they simulate a computer on which they're playing a game.

Otherwise, excellent suggestions in this thread, I'd definitely like to see a computer block that isn't just decorative, it would dramatically improve the usability of logic systems for smaller ships.

 

[Knack]

but that's because some people want to use their computer to play a game in which they simulate a computer on which they're playing a game.

We don't do that on servers and also not on ships which are meant to fly around. It's cool that we have the possibility do build computers, but that shouldn't affect the normal gameplay
But at least with the rail update, there is a need for bigger logic circuits, and therefore this one-block logic is needed.
Scriptable block are also needed in my opinion but not as a replacement for this suggestion.

In my eyes it wouldn't even be a problem if the possibilities are very limited (for example no delays or buttons allowed), so that a small truth table becomes useable.

 

[nightwalker_007]

If the logic block consists of only 8 inputs and 8 outputs, then yes, a 256-byte truth table can be created. It doesn't matter the logic that's used inside the system. The first Apple computers used ROM chips with truth tables to substitute for complex logic. I know it may be hard to wrap your head around, but this is correct... with the caveat that the output of one gate can't be fed back through the input of another gate behind it.

If flip-flops were attached, then these would have to be tied to the input/output channels of the device.

In any case, complex logic is needed for hanger bays, along with other blocks... which I my post didn't make it up to the server for some reason, so I'll rewrite it and post it again.

 

[NeonSturm]

4 bit would also be an option if 8 bit wouldn't fit into the block's data layout.

What I really want is a memory+keyboard block. Right now you need 2m^3 to store 1 bit or input 1 keystroke on a password-pad.
That's just too large to implement stuff like faction-security.

You should be able to store at least 4x[0..15] in a block (simple pin number) and 16 hexadecimals in 2-4 blocks for more security.

 

[nightwalker_007]

Yeah well, I've suggested a lock-block that would override any faction permissions to open or close doors.... which would remove the need for complex logic to open a door.

Of course, somebody could just enter build mode and crack most security systems by looking at what's happening behind the wall.