Cannon/beam rebalance vs Missiles (+realism, coooool!)

    Valiant70

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    TL;DR: Missiles are overpowered, so give cannons and beams a slight AOE at high damage because physics. This brings them more on par with missiles.

    Ok, so first off, almost everyone thinks missiles are the most powerful weapon. Right now they're the most effective for actually trashing ships because they have a greater chance (ok, pretty much the only chance past 1000m) of hitting the core. Yeah, cores are going to be gone after the HP update, but that just makes it worse. Missiles destroy a BOOT TON of blocks compared to even the most devastating anti-hull beams or cannons, which will make them even more overpowered unless missiles were heavily nerfed against shields. That might need to happen anyway, but I don't think anyone wants that so I have another idea based on flipping realism. So good for realism junkies AND for gameplay and balance.

    To bring cannon rounds and beams up to par with missiles, they need some AOE against blocks. Not too much though, or missiles will be dwarfed due to the ability to shoot them down.

    Physics and Realism

    When a solid cannon round hits something, the shock of the impact is what causes the damage. The harder it hits, the farther the shock of the impact travels through the target. Add an energy warhead with the explosive effect and it'll go farther. Explosive would turn cannon rounds into tiny, small radius, unguided missiles that fly a lot faster and can't really be shot down. Honestly, cleanly destroying a single block with millions of damage to spare was always kind of dumb.

    Think about it. While the beams lack a visual flickering effect, they're pulsing beams, not continuous. That means each instantaneous pulse is causing that damage (thanks, Captain Obvious). If all that energy is hitting in an instant, the rapid heating, vaporization, etc. will cause a lot of shock and stress to the surrounding structure as well. Thus, each pulse of a beam attack should use a similar algorithm to a cannon impact.

    Algorithm Stuff and Balance

    Too big a radius would be overpowered, and just adding an inherent explosive effect seems funky because this rebalance would change the way explosive works on these weapons. Instead, if a cannon round destroys the block it hits, apply half of the remaining damage to the block in the cannon's line of fire, and spread the other half of remaining damage to surrounding blocks. As suggested by jayman38, for every factor of 1000 damage, the round gains one more block of punch and one more block of radius.

    For beams, do a similar thing, but just apply 1/6 of the remaining damage all around since there's no forward momentum in an energy blast.

    Missiles should always be more damaging than cannons or beams because they have one critical weakness: They can be shot down. After the AI update, PD should be more effective, bringing them into proper balance.

    Effects and Stuff

    Ion, overdrive, push, pull, stop, etc: no change as they don't affect blocks.

    Overdrive: Just like now, increase base damage at a huge energy cost. Y'all might want to reduce the energy cost a little though, as overdrive has basically been nerfed into oblivion as is.

    Explosive effect: To keep either cannons or beams from getting too effective and overshadowing missiles, their radius with should be soft-capped to a very small radius, around 3 blocks at most (we're talking a cannon round or beam tick that does millions of damage).

    Punchthrough: Damage block, half remaining damage, apply half to the 6 surrounding blocks if the first is destroyed and pass the other half forward to the next intact block. Repeat. (Physics: The cannon round kind of squishes, spreading devastation like a hollow point bullet. The beam is focused somewhat more than normal, so it goes deeper.)

    Piercing: Works about like it does now. Both cannons and beams lose AOE in return for puncture. (Physics: A pointy, narrow cannon round punches straight in without causing much sideways shock. The beam is so tightly focused that the shock from each tick can only destroy one block.)

    End Note: Overall Balance

    Core-drilling has always been stupid, and will always remain so. Thus, the game's playability will suffer until the HP update no matter what Schine does. Fortunately, these changes would still have some effect anyway, meaning missiles will no longer be the only thing that can cause serious block damage and reach a ship's core. It might be reasonable to implement this stuff before the HP update to try it out, but then again the HP update is pretty much the most important thing after rails IMO. Once that's in, shield balancing can be re-visited.
     
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    jayman38

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    Great stuff. I would like to see one block punch-through plus a one block radius spread of half the total remaining damage for every three orders of magnitude. (The remaining half of the damage value would be applied to effects, like pierce or additional explosive or punch-through effect.)

    Examples:
    Once a canon shot or beam burst exceeds 1000 damage, it vaporizes the impact block and then explodes on the block beneath it and damages up to five surrounding blocks with half the total damage, assuming the sixth face is clear due to the vaporized impact block.
    Once it exceeds a million damage, it vaporizes two blocks in a row and explodes on the third block deep, damages up to 30 surrounding blocks, assuming two of those surrounding blocks were already vaporized.

    Superweapons would start creating hollow caverns just under the surface with a relatively small entry wound, as one might expect. Good and Mean!
     

    Asvarduil

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    (Suggestion)
    This...is actually sensible, and well-thought out. It also helps to slightly resolve the "Useless Cannons" problem in part (increasing the damage cannons do slightly would be the other necessary fix to this problem.) So...good on you!

    Also, missiles aren't inherently overpowered - as you point out, they're destructible; a destroyed missile does no damage. It's just that every other weapon in the game is useless somehow, and AIs can't effectively perform point-defense. As a result, missiles are actually overpowered, but only due to the faults of other weapons.
     
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    Woah, you did have a brainstorm, and obviously a nice one.
    Agree but pls for the love of transcedental being ICLUDE CANNON/PULSE. I want that artilery effect.... as in long reload, shittload of energy used but high alpha and around 10 explosion radius....
     

    NeonSturm

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    When a solid cannon round hits something, the shock of the impact is what causes the damage. The harder it hits, the farther the shock of the impact travels through the target.
    Projectiles of Rail-Guns may shock themselves and turn into liquid.

    If all that energy is hitting in an instant, the rapid heating, vaporization, etc. will cause a lot of shock and stress to the surrounding structure as well. Thus, each pulse of a beam attack should use a similar algorithm to a cannon impact.
    Except if it mass tuns into liquid (which splatters out) and shock-waves are absorbed by a clever system if nano-scale vacuum-chambers inside the hull material.
    (( no shock-waves through vacuum ))

    Missiles should always be more damaging than cannons or beams because they have one critical weakness: They can be shot down. After the AI update, PD should be more effective, bringing them into proper balance.
    Cannon may spread, beam may be reflected by a mirror :p
    No. Better make each weapon unique, so peoples more often equip different guns (makes it more interesting)

    Overdrive: Just like now, increase base damage at a huge energy cost. Y'all might want to reduce the energy cost a little though, as overdrive has basically been nerfed into oblivion as is.
    Haven't used it since a while.

    Last time it was balanced only when a weapon has slaves.
    Gun + OD => 2x5 energy, 2x3 damage (( 1/2 OD blocks required : 6 /10 = 10x power, 60% power efficiency, 3x damage per block ))
    Gun + Slave + OD => 3x5 energy, 3x3 damage (( 1/3 OD blocks required : 9/15 = 15x power, 60% power efficiency, 3x damage per block ))

    In the second case, you would have saved (1/3) / (1/2) blocks = (1*2) / (3*1) = 2/3 as many blocks required for same effect.
    2/3 * 2/3 (effect * slave) = 4/9 required blocks compared to plain gun.​
     

    Valiant70

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    Projectiles of Rail-Guns may shock themselves and turn into liquid.
    That just means it might not punch as far. Forward momentum would be reduced by the amount of energy required to liquify the shell. There would still be a ridiculous amount of energy entering the target, which has a similar (but not identical) effect. The way I'm thinking of doing it, it wouldn't affect the simulation much, TBH.

    Great stuff. I would like to see one block punch-through plus a one block radius spread of half the total remaining damage for every three orders of magnitude. (The remaining half of the damage value would be applied to effects, like pierce or additional explosive or punch-through effect.)

    Examples:
    Once a canon shot or beam burst exceeds 1000 damage, it vaporizes the impact block and then explodes on the block beneath it and damages up to five surrounding blocks with half the total damage, assuming the sixth face is clear due to the vaporized impact block.
    Once it exceeds a million damage, it vaporizes two blocks in a row and explodes on the third block deep, damages up to 30 surrounding blocks, assuming two of those surrounding blocks were already vaporized.

    Superweapons would start creating hollow caverns just under the surface with a relatively small entry wound, as one might expect. Good and Mean!
    I like it. Added to OP.
     

    Auriga_Nexus

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    I like these ideas a lot. One more thing, perhaps we can set so that armor instead of just absorbing a certain percentage of damage, it decreases the percentage of penetrating damage and instead increases the flat-area damage to surrounding blocks?

    Let me explain my reasoning: typically armored ships have armor on the outer shell of the ship (and possibly interior bulkheads) in order to protect the softer targets inside such as weapon modules, power and shield generators, etc. To make them more useful, we can set it so that standard armor diverts an additional portion of damage that would penetrate the block and hit the block behind and causes it to hit the surrounding blocks instead, and since those blocks would also be armor blocks, damage to an armored surface would cause more radial area damage than penetrating damage. Naturally, advanced and crystal armors would do the same only more effectively. Modern armor works this way - it is designed to try and deflect projectiles rather than stop them dead, since it takes much less energy to change the direction of a speeding bullet than it does to stop it in its entirety. This way, even a high powered shot has very little chance of getting through a single armor plate on its first hit, though it will damage the armor heavily enough and over a large enough area that a second shot delivered straight to that impact point would be more effective.

    I think this would make armor more useful especially on larger ships, and it goes well with my suggestion on balancing shields here: http://starmadedock.net/threads/a-final-fix-to-ship-balancing-in-the-game.7216/
     
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    NeonSturm

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    I like these ideas a lot. One more thing, perhaps we can set so that armor instead of just absorbing a certain percentage of damage, it decreases the percentage of penetrating damage and instead increases the flat-area damage to surrounding blocks?

    Let me explain my reasoning: typically armored ships have armor on the outer shell of the ship (and possibly interior bulkheads) in order to protect the softer targets inside such as weapon modules, power and shield generators, etc. To make them more useful, we can set it so that standard armor diverts an additional portion of damage that would penetrate the block and hit the block behind and causes it to hit the surrounding blocks instead, and since those blocks would also be armor blocks, damage to an armored surface would cause more radial area damage than penetrating damage. Naturally, advanced and crystal armors would do the same only more effectively. Modern armor works this way - it is designed to try and deflect projectiles rather than stop them dead, since it takes much less energy to change the direction of a speeding bullet than it does to stop it in its entirety. This way, even a high powered shot has very little chance of getting through a single armor plate on its first hit, though it will damage the armor heavily enough and over a large enough area that a second shot delivered straight to that impact point would be more effective.

    I think this would make armor more useful especially on larger ships, and it goes well with my suggestion on balancing shields here: http://starmadedock.net/threads/a-final-fix-to-ship-balancing-in-the-game.7216/
    If you deflect a projectile 180°, you have the same material stress as if you would stop it.
    If you talk about deflecting it 90° (a half circle), you have 1/2 the material stress - just divided over a larger area.
    • IRL materials consume a part per time without taking damage.
    • That's what makes rail-guns so effective : Everything above a materials offset counts - and rail-guns have more above this offset.

    To effectively deflect something, you need to convert it's energy fully or change the flight path only slightly.
    • Thus you need to either increase the time of interaction with the same matter.
    • Or you need a greater distance of deflection.
    • Or more matter interacting with the projectile at the same time.
      • Since matter usually only "fully" interacts with very close particles, this is called force-field. A magnet/magic-ally force diverting the energy of projectiles.

    I do like your thoughts, but you don't explain it completely.
     
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    If you deflect a projectile 180°, you have the same material stress as if you would stop it.
    Wouldn't you have twice the stress(assuming deflection occurrs on contact/during negligably small timeframe)? The projectile would have to be slowed from v to 0, and then accelerated in the opposite direction again from 0 to v.
    If you talk about deflecting it 90° (a half circle)
    What? 360° is a full circle, thus 180° is half a circle and 90° is a quarter of a circle.
    Also, it wouldn't be half the stress, just 1/sqrt(2) of the stress of a full deflection(assuming deflection occurrs on contact/during a negligably small timeframe)[and sqrt(2) times the stress of simply stopping the projectile]?

    I am honestly a little confused about the calculations in that post of yours.
     
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    Very interesting idea Valiant70. And since we are talking about weapons. I think the projectiles should be bigger, depending on the damage they deal. Because now you usually get hit with a tiny, barely visble projectile which ruins your day.
     

    NeonSturm

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    What? 360° is a full circle, thus 180° is half a circle and 90° is a quarter of a circle.
    Also, it wouldn't be half the stress, just 1/sqrt(2) of the stress of a full deflection(assuming deflection occurrs on contact/during a negligably small timeframe)[and sqrt(2) times the stress of simply stopping the projectile]?

    I am honestly a little confused about the calculations in that post of yours.
    A 360° turn would cost no energy at all - since it means you are not touching the vector.

    A 180° is a full turn, the inversion of 2x (force= velocity^2).
    If you would need less than 1/2 for a 90° turn, you could combine 2x 90° turn and a full stop for an inertia drive.
    |--->\
    ¦
    v
    |<---/

    I am as confused by your mass as you might be by my math.

    Except you wanna say that stress =/= force.
    I said total stress = area(force/time, mass)
    stress per mass = area(force/time, mass/mass) = force/time​


    Perhaps your math would introduce mass-inertia drives or moving-space-velocity sensors.
    Force = (relative velocity difference)^2
    relative to objects or reference point of space? (that's a question about which I don't know an answer jet)

    relative to objects means that required force to light speed would be linear and there is another factor limiting the speed.

    relative to reference point of space means that you could measure your current speed by the difference of force required for a +1m/s velocity change.​
     
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    Punch through needs the soft cap removed for everything other than cannon-slave, for block destruction on larger ships it's kind of worthless outside of rapid fire. Explosive needs to be buffed as well, I would suggest giving it a radius capped with whatever slave you're using (cannon kept as is, pulse being largest). Missiles should still have the biggest destructive radius, since that's kind of their thing.
     
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    I agree with this thread. Also, the planned fifth weapon type will need to be balanced as well. Well thought out, Valiant70