The crafting system

[Jananton]

Hi All.

I know, I know, there was lots of discussion on how the crafting system was much to complex when it was first released, but for some reason I now have the feeling it's the other way around.

I get the impression that the more fancy stuff like jumpdrives, warpgates and computers of any kind just take two components to build. In other words it's much too simple.

Take warpgate computers and modules for instance, drop some nacht and nocx capsules in an advanced factory and there you go. If you've mined enough it's gates galore, that can't be right. There should be some more steps to come to such 'advanced' technology if you ask me.

At the moment I have the notion the most complex construction is that of advanced armor. There are several steps needed to come to a final product of that and I find it extremely strange that supposedly more complex items like computers can be done in just one.

If you ask me some more depth should be added here to create more player immersion in the whole crafting idea.

Greets,

Jan

 

[Lecic]

You know all those circuts and stuff that are decorative? Those used to be used in the crafting system, but too many people complained it was too complex, so now instead of cool, complex factory chains working together to produce things, we have people with one of each factory type hooked up to a ton of enhancers that they just throw capsules into when they need something.

 

[Criss]

Yeah. I know calbiri has done it twice now and everything but I really really liked the old random parts that we had before. There were things like coils and circuit boards (items not blocks) and stuff that went into recipes. Apparently the idea is that factories use nanites to assemble these machines and that is how we can assemble the basic stuff in our suit. I still would like a system that not only made it more complex but more interesting.

 

[DreamingOfRoundPlanetsAndNoBlocks]

Complexity is not the key... even tho I agree with what you said.
I never tried the old way, but until I got the current one wraped my around my head it took some time, i was lost. Then I realized how easy it is since you only need 2 generics then go from there.

The problem with a game like starmade is that the crafting system is not as intuitive as say, Minecraft or 7Days to die. In these games, you feel like you are somehow assembling the object. Like, you put the materials needed in the shape of the object, like forming a pickaxe shape or stone. Its very clever and easy to memorize and it makes sense.

Since starforge is more hifi this seems harder to implement.

I do not have a solution to get a crafting system thats as intuitive as Minecraft.

 

[Jananton]

You know all those circuts and stuff that are decorative? Those used to be used in the crafting system, but too many people complained it was too complex...

I know... I was one of the few opposed to the main trend to simplify crafting too much, sadly it seems that's exactly what happened. I liked it one needed to craft several intermediate components before getting to the end result. It gave a feel of completion when one finally got the item you wanted / needed to craft.

Yeah. I know calbiri has done it twice now and everything but I really really liked the old random parts that we had before. There were things like coils and circuit boards (items not blocks) and stuff that went into recipes. Apparently the idea is that factories use nanites to assemble these machines and that is how we can assemble the basic stuff in our suit. I still would like a system that not only made it more complex but more interesting.

Same here, from a game-play standpoint it was also much more involved since you needed to choose what to make with the limited resources at your disposal and not just blindly mine enough asteroids from a certain type.

I've said this before, but maybe a differentiation could be introduced in game-types in the future so both play-styles can exist next to each other for those who like the current system and those who like a more complex style.
As for the complexity level I feel this at least should be more in relation to the pricing of items we see in shops. So modules for instance would be simpler to craft then their corresponding computers and so on.

Let us look at the advanced armor again, lets see, create gray hull, create paint, paint hull, upgrade hull to standard, create reinforcement ingots, upgrade standard- to advanced hull and finally create different block types. Even if we count the different block types as one there are seven steps in the process of creating an advanced colored armor hull block. The average price of a warp computer is about six times the price of such a hull block. Now I'm not saying a warp computer should take seven multiplied by six building steps to make, but seven or eight should be a more logical number of steps needed then one if you ask me.

...The problem with a game like starmade is that the crafting system is not as intuitive as say, Minecraft or 7Days to die. In these games, you feel like you are somehow assembling the object. Like, you put the materials needed in the shape of the object, like forming a pickaxe shape or stone. Its very clever and easy to memorize and it makes sense...

Knowing Minecraft too I agree that the crafting is in many ways more intuitive although there are exceptions there too. A big difference in StarMade is of course that you have the receipt available in the game and even if there is some intuitiveness introduced - like computers will always need a motherboard, a power supply, a cooling system and whatever else - it's much less needed then in Mincraft were you need to remember all the receipts.

Greets,

Jan

 

[aceface]

i think its fine the way it is to be honest

only one change - that the resources required to manufacture shields is divided by 5
currently, most ships manufactured by factories more or less one shot eachother in one way or another due to it being a lot easier to make weapon damage in proportion to shield health.

 

[Lecic]

i think its fine the way it is to be honest

only one change - that the resources required to manufacture shields is divided by 5
currently, most ships manufactured by factories more or less one shot eachother in one way or another due to it being a lot easier to make weapon damage in proportion to shield health.

That's an issue with larimar rarity, not shield cost. Fix larimar belts instead, I say.

Also, that'll be less of an issue when the HP system comes out.

 

[Jananton]

i think its fine the way it is to be honest

only one change - that the resources required to manufacture shields is divided by 5...

You don't think it's strange that something simple like advanced armor is a multitude more difficult to craft then any computer? In my book, how often you call something advanced doesn't necessarily makes it so, certainly not when compared with computers for instance.
I fear we have to agree to disagree at this point.

That's an issue with larimar rarity, not shield cost. Fix larimar belts instead, I say.

Also, that'll be less of an issue when the HP system comes out.

Hmm, maybe you are all not looking in the right place. I found you have much more luck finding larimar asteroids when you go in a direction or course that has a 90 degree angle with the asteroids orbital plane on the map. Maybe coincidence, but actually I don't think so.

Greets,

Jan

 

[aceface]

You don't think it's strange that something simple like advanced armor is a multitude more difficult to craft then any computer? In my book, how often you call something advanced doesn't necessarily makes it so, certainly not when compared with computers for instance.
I fear we have to agree to disagree at this point.


Hmm, maybe you are all not looking in the right place. I found you have much more luck finding larimar asteroids when you go in a direction or course that has a 90 degree angle with the asteroids orbital plane on the map. Maybe coincidence, but actually I don't think so.

Greets,

Jan

i also think that armor should be cheaper but i am not so concerned about it right now since the hp system will come out and change it's uses

 

[Byamarro]

I loved old system. I started to create huge factory chains but now it's too simple :s



BTW idk why people complains about complexity. It isn't that hard to understeand...

Maybe the only failure was lack of good tutorial?

 

[Jananton]

I loved old system. I started to create huge factory chains but now it's too simple :s

Yes, I was very impressed with the new crafting system too and liked it very much. It was very rewarding linking up factories and enhancers to automate the crafting of special parts needed.

With the latest changes that linking of production lines is almost unnecessary anymore, very sad indeed. In my honest opinion crafting is now hardly anything more then a dumb mining exercise because most people wanted easy gain instead of using their brains.

Maybe the above is a harsh statement, but for me the game has lost a serious part of its charm because of this. I'm a single-player aficionado with survival in mind, so I'm not interested in building massive ships as some seem to find the only goal. For me it's much more about exploration and making efficient use of available resources to survive the perils of space and worlds with their inhabitants. (a feature of the future I hope)

BTW idk why people complains about complexity. It isn't that hard to understeand...

Maybe the only failure was lack of good tutorial?

I don't know if the lack of tutorial(s) was / is the reason for the failure of the original crafting system. In my experience many people seem to skip all manuals and reading material that accompanies software and games in particular only to complain later that things are to difficult to grasp.

I hope there will be made an attempt to give the crafting system more depth again because it has so much potential for game-play too.

Lets imagine for a moment. You need a cannon computer, so for building you need a motherboard, a processor, power supply / transformer, cooling and software to get the type we're all familiar with. During your exploration of the universe you encounter a civilization on a far away planet that has developed better software that can enhance your cannon computer to give it more punch. Of course they want something for something before sharing this new technology with you or your faction. Do you barter with them or do you try to take their knowledge by force. Do you try to do some industrial espionage, or could it be you own some technology they're interested in. Think about it, the possibilities are endless.

Greets,

Jan

 

[Byamarro]

http://starmadedock.net/threads/technical-crafting.5081/#post-76598

This discussion inspirated me

 

[Jananton]

i also think that armor should be cheaper but i am not so concerned about it right now since the hp system will come out and change it's uses

You are missing my point. Crafting of armor shouldn't be easier / cheaper, everything else should be more difficult.

Greets,

Jan

 

[Jananton]

Well, I didn't want to leave this as long as I did because I had the following crafting setup proposal much earlier, but somehow I couldn't find the time to put a simple schematic together.

Although there was much criticism about the complexity of the original crafting system I noticed that after the revision only the crafting of hulls has some complexity left and that nobody seems to have problems with this. One of the reasons could be that in essence all hull types are created in the same manner.
With this in mind I thought the same could be done with computers and their accompanying modules. Here's a schematic how that could look. (as a reminder I put the hull creation steps in first)

Those familiar with the current crafting will notice that, as with hulls, computers and modules all start with the same own base component. After that differentiation starts to take place, but all in all the different types of computers and modules have the same build steps making the crafting system slightly more complex but certainly more comprehensible then the old original crafting process.

The word 'type' in the schematic obviously stands for the computer and module names currently used in the game.
Because of the typical kind of computers and modules like pulse, beam and cannon there could be a further refinement like beam motherboard, pulse motherboard etcetera, and the same with beam casing, pulse casing and so forth. In that case all beam kind computers could use the same beam motherboard and all beam modules could use a beam casing.

This is just an example of course, but it wouldn't be hard to envision how the other block types in StarMade could follow the same principles as described here. In my opinion this way gives much more satisfaction then just brainless dropping two things in a factory block to get what you want, certainly if supposed high tech components are to be crafted.

Greets,

Jan

 

[Technosonic]

Jan, that example schematic is pretty nice and simple to me. I never used the old crafting system but i can say that as it is right now it is a little simple. >.> now we just need something to make mining more enjoyable.