Starmade being overtaken?

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    I'm wondering with the plethora of voxel space sims entering the market what Starmade is doing to become competitive. I love this game but I feel like it isn't going anywhere and that other games will offer a better experience very soon. Particularly games like Empyron, Dual Universe and today Skywanderers released a trailer.


    I haven't tried any of these games yet because I think that Starmade still offers the most, but the Skywanderers trailer looks like they have everything Starmade has plus a better looking environment. It makes me wonder if Starmade is going to be overtaken soon.

    I really would like to invest my time in whatever game allows me to build a space empire, ship by ship and block by block. Maybe I'm outright wrong, or maybe somethings could be improved here. My question is will Starmade be worth my time in the future or am I better off investing in theses newer games?
     
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    Shouldn't this be moved to off-topic because it's kinda weird discussing wether or not Starmade is worth playing and what games might be better instead of Starmade? I mean it more like we are talking about what games might be better than SM and thats advertisment.

    To adress the question: Skywanderers has no environment, there are no shots of actual planets. It is propossed to get it, but as long as the dev has no fotage of those the game does not have environment. Also I am not really interested into thinking about games that might be actually enjoyable in 2 years, when I think about what to play now. Also I fear it happens the same as it happend to Spacebase DF 9. I mean I gladly paid 15 € for Starmade because it allready is a game - 1.5 years ago.

    How long did you play Minecraft? Exactly: you played it not longer than one year straight. So is it really relevant to measure a space sandbox on scales longer than 6 months?

    And I think asking if you should hold on playing any sandbox game, until THE real sandbox game comes out, is kind of useless. There will allways be a better sandbox with better AI and better this or that. But not in the near future of 6 months.

    What I find most uninteresting about Skywanderers is the fact, that it just jumps onto the space sandbox hype train. Ofcourse it looks nice. But do you know how many Minecraft clones came out right after Minecraft became really popular? I rather stick to what I trust now.

    Besides: if a Minecraft in space would be so fucking easy that a one man studio could do it, it would allready exist 50 times.

    And to get one thing straight: Any game, that has working faction mechanics and NPCs and fauna and music and the ability to fulfill quests will need at least 2 years to finish if it starts right now. Exept for Starmade, because it allready has the basic core game and thus has a development advantage.

    I mean just think about everything Skywanderers would need to actually compete with SM: AI, NPCs, Fauna, Faction Simulation, Planet Generation, Physics, Quest Systems, Universe Generation...

    I mean even if the dev would hire 5 guys right now they just can't code that stuff in less than 2 years.
     
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    Raisinbat

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    Notice the weapons strapped onto the ships?

    Like all the other games, and unlike starmade, you can't design how ships work. This is starmade's massive advantage; it does ship combat far better than any of it's competitors because you have control over how your ships behave in combat. You design your own weapons instead of strapping prefabs onto your ship.

    Space engineers, empyrion, avorion and now this thing only allow you to make ships on a superficial level; you smack together a hull structure out of armor, then sprinkle systems on top of it as an afterthought.
     
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    "Sky Wanderers" kinda looks like if someone mashed parts of Starmade, Roblox, Minecraft, and a hint of Pulsar: Lost Colony together. It doesn't seem viable in all the aspects Starmade will be working on. Either way, Starmade has ambitious plans all the way up to about mid-late beta that will be hard for other games to follow up on and stay unique. We barely have glimpses of half the stuff in the Active Timeline, but we do know it's probably going to be good, and we're still in early-mid alpha.
     
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    I agree, Raisinbat.

    There is a marketing concern though; eventually one of these clones is going to tap into a lucrative partnership with someone big enough to push them into an eclipse position. That won't kill Starmade, but it may prevent Starmade from ever tapping lucrative setups like Minecraft does, selling the brand to Lego and peddling trading cards to kids in grocery stores and the like.

    Think: Betamax

    That's my only concern regarding the clone wars.
     
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    Starmade because it allready is a game - 1.5 years ago.
    No, StarMade currently is not a game. While I may enjoy the game it would be wrong to say it is a game with so many elements missing.

    And to get one thing straight: Any game, that has working faction mechanics and NPCs and fauna and music and the ability to fulfill quests will need at least 2 years to finish if it starts right now. Exept for Starmade, because it allready has the basic core game and thus has a development advantage.

    I mean just think about everything Skywanderers would need to actually compete with SM: AI, NPCs, Fauna, Faction Simulation, Planet Generation, Physics, Quest Systems, Universe Generation.
    How much of this does StarMade have? Wonky AI that can barely function and 3 half-assed npc factions? Fuana is non existent, what faction simulation are you talking about, planets are lame, physics are questionable at best, and there are currently no quests in the game.
     
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    Az14el

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    As Raisinbat pointed out there is fundamental difference between starmade and these games, you can pretty much consider them the "easy route" for building & simulation, and they will likely be finished in a far shorter time because of this. But short production time + small dev team is the open world kiss of death so no worries there :D
     
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    Too true. Starmade just got OWNED by Skywanderers trailer. SM lacks a LOT.... possibly MOST of what we've been promised for the past 3 years or so. Instead Schine has dinked around re-inventing the wheel once or twice a year, and never actually moving this ALPHA out into a beta. So... no, to the above, this is not actually a real game yet. Now, yet again, we're stuck with Schine shoving a power overhaul (read: re-inventing the wheel, again) down our throats, breaking all of our BPs again.... AGAIN... and still not delivering on promises and features we've needed and been asking for, for the past 3 years, core skeletal features of necessary gameplay and server support and build mode...

    Raisinbat's wrong - Skywanderers is clearly a voxel game, Minecraft in space, with good elements of so much more, and relatively low-fi so hopefully those of us with older comps or laptops can run it. Weapons is not what [used to] makes Starmade, nor customizing all our systems. Any game can do that. It was, until now, the only space voxel game, where you truly just built with only voxels inside and out.

    The ultimate point, tho, is not so much the voxel itself, it's being able to totally custom build your own ship, not with premade pieces like some others, but a true voxel - a plain, colored cube. From there, everything else branched out: hulls, shields, reactors, guns... You know at first we just have 1 block each for cannon, missile, beam, pulse; and had to use a slider menu to customize them. We didn't have rails. Starmade actually had more players back then. The changes in the game over the past 3+ years haven't been bringing the things into the game, the content, the mod'ing, the server support, the scripting, etc; the things that the community has truly needed. So, now, we're facing the inevitable truth that other games, clones, latecomers, whatever ... are catching up and surpassing Starmade.
    [doublepost=1488945684,1488945590][/doublepost]
    As Raisinbat pointed out there is fundamental difference between starmade and these games, you can pretty much consider them the "easy route" for building & simulation, and they will likely be finished in a far shorter time because of this. But short production time + small dev team is the open world kiss of death so no worries there :D
    so... basically you want another indie game (Skywanderers) to fail, so you can justify your time spent in the futility of SchineMade?

    Wow... classy...
     

    Raisinbat

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    Raisinbat's wrong - Skywanderers is clearly a voxel game, Minecraft in space, with good elements of so much more, and relatively low-fi so hopefully those of us with older comps or laptops can run it. Weapons is not what [used to] makes Starmade, nor customizing all our systems. Any game can do that. It was, until now, the only space voxel game, where you truly just built with only voxels inside and out.
    What exactly is in that game that isn't already in starmade?
     
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    Use of the term "SchineMade" confuses and infuriates me! Ok, not really, I just like the "confuses and infuriates us" quote from futurama. Anyway, calling it "SchineMade" is a little weird. Are you saying that Schine's involvement in starmade is ruining it? Lol. Like calling mine craft "MicroCraft" because Microsoft has RUINED ECERYTHING? That's a little odd considering that Schine is the sole entity that has ever worked on StarMade. I could see "SchineRunner" or "SchineCraft" both of which imply that starmade is a ripoff of other games. Or maybe "FailMade" or something if you really meant to put either Starmade or Schine down. But "SchineMade"? That just feels... I don't know, confused?

    Anyway, I understand the frustration. Maybe you should check out skywanderererererererers's demo and tell us how it is.

    Wait....
     

    Master_Artificer

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    Well those are unfortunate choices for charature models.

    But that galaxy map... ohhhh...
    Star systems are... big... ooohhh yeeesss

    I almost thought they didnt have rails, it seems just certian few blocks have moving animations, and actually at the end it turns out the thing with moving parts isna weapon, so they might not have actual rails.
    Reminds me more of a minecrafted space engineers than starmade.

    Time to go watch the old starmade trailer again.
     
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    Hi, I'm a pre-alpha tester for Skywanderers. I've played some, as well as watched gameplay content, so I have a rough idea of where the game is in development. I'm a game developer myself, so can speak a little on my perspective of the two games.

    Skywanders positives...
    • Skywanderers is visually superior to StarMade. The post processing effects, lighting, particles, UI feedback, universe backdrop are much more refined, giving the game a polish lacking in StarMade.
    • The logic system is more compact, allowing ships of all sizes to have neat contraptions, with limited space. Whether this is an improvement or not, is opinion, I view it as a plus.
    • Plenty of 3D models to compliment the blocks. While StarMade has some 3D models, Skywanderers has more. It gives the game a more "realistic" feel, allowing fine details in smaller builds and interiors. Something which StarMade lacks. Additionally, the 3D models contribute to a "more" unique appearance to the game. Again, whether this is a plus or not is opinion.
    • Universe layout is superior. Entities are more spread out; it seems much more natural, unlike StarMade's grid galaxy system.
    • Sounds are present in the game.
    • LOD system, although a bit hack and slash, is in the game. I'm not sure if LOD is also for ships, but asteroids have a working LOD system, reducing graphical load. Additionally, planet rings are "functional" they appear as a 3D model/texture from a distance and transition into a cluster of LOD asteroids when near. A LOD system in StarMade for asteroids and planets could alleviate significant graphical load on our computers, as well as allow for larger entities.

    Skywanderers is visually superior to StarMade, it has a lot of eye candy, and this alone is going to gain them players. From trailers and screenshots, it'll look like StarMade either has tough competition quickly catching up, or even appears to have surpassed StarMade. Clever marketing there.

    This isn't true, and I'll tell you why :) Skywanderers is created in Unity, which is quite a popular game engine. Games made with Unity include: Cities: Skylines, Firewatch, Kerbal Space Program, I Am Bread, Ori and the Blind Forest, Broforce... It's a great little engine and can be incredibly powerful in the right hands on the right project (ie KSP). A game engine basically makes game developers' jobs easier, by providing them with a lot of prebuilt tools to cut down development time, things such as rendering, physics, sound, animation, networking, scripting, AI...

    Unity is particularly notable for its great rendering/graphics. Unity provides almost all (if not all) the fancy graphics (lighting, flares, particles etc) and LOD systems. Little to no work involved there. Unity also provides its own audio engine. Notice how my list of positives for Skywanderers mostly comprises of things that Unity handles? Notice how almost all Skywanderers videos focus on aesthetics ;)

    StarMade, for the past 4 or so years has been leading the voxel (boxel) space genre. A lot of game development is about figuring out what works and what doesn't, when you're leading the pack, you get the privilege of dealing with the brunt of that work. Skywanderers has been able to piggyback off system design from StarMade, you can see the StarMade "inspiration" in a lot of their content. The most noticeable is in their logic system, which is nearly a direct copy of the Logic and Rails system in StarMade, with the benefit of being scaled down. Great, no need to reinvent the wheel, StarMade expanded from Minecraft's redstone, Skywanderers has adapted StarMade's system. There's nothing wrong with this, but it's an important point.

    Skywanderers has the illusion of having faster progress than StarMade, this is where we need to be very careful. Skywanderers hasn't had to create their own graphics system, they've adapted Unity's great tools. Skywanderers also has the benefit of learning from others who have covered a lot of ground in that genre already (ie StarMade).

    Now, there's a sacrifice to pay for using Unity, and for many games, the sacrifice is well made, as the loss would have contributed little to no benefits. However, in Skywanderers case, this "shortcut" might be fatal. The issue with using Unity is that access to low-level code is limited/restricted. For a voxel game that wants to scale, that's a problem. Massive optimisations? Forget it. When you start hitting millions of blocks, hundreds of entities not just static, but dynamic too, you need serious optimisation work. Games like StarMade and Skywanderers need access to the low level, it's no small feat to achieve a massive living universe. I think if Skywanderers is aiming for the same scale as StarMade, Unity was a poor choice.

    Which leads me to what I think are the biggest negatives for Skywanderers.

    • Made in Unity, great for getting smaller to medium projects off the ground quickly, but the lack of access to the low level leaves little room for optimisation work necessary for a massive voxel space game with millions of blocks entities flying, colliding, fighting in 3D space.
    • Won't scale effectively, for the reasons listed above in my talk about Unity, but also the design choices made. A heavy focus on aesthetics takes up a lot of resources. Unity graphics, while nice, don't really scale too well. With the plethora of non-block (smaller) objects able to be used, the performance impact doesn't allow for this sort of detail to be scaled. Again, if Skywanderers is aiming for the scale of StarMade, this was a poor design choice.
    • No Physics implemented. This is a big one, most people won't realise how big of a thing this is. Physics is a lot of work. Not even collisions. If graphics in Skywanderers is 0.5-1% (using Unity) of work (which is quite generous), Physics is at least 25% of the total work required. Physics in a continuously changing voxel environment is a beast to deal with. This point alone is enough to see how much work they have to catch up.
    • Planets are 3D placeholders. All the cool planets you see? Don't exist. They are merely 3D models, you can not go to them. This is not implemented at all. That's a lot of work to implement.
    • No game mechanics are functional, power, shields, weapons... While there are turret systems and "weapons" they are all visual. Why do you think the scenes in the trailer either cut before weapon impact or are disguised by explosions? :)
    • Lacking plenty of content already in StarMade, to name a few... NPCs, Fleets, Crafting, Trading
    • Multiplayer appears to be minimal, lots of work still needs to be done here. This is another big point, multiplayer is hard to do. Although Unity likely handles a lot, I'm sure there's plenty of development time to be invested there.

    So if it's missing all of this, what is Skywanderers now? It's a fancy looking (thanks to Unity) spaceship builder, literally. As in, that's all you can do, not as in that's the only fun part, it's the only part. The developer appears to have his priorities set wrong, focusing on aesthetics and marketing, when he should be working on the foundations for the game. It's nice eye candy for sure, and he's been able to appear to make plenty of progress thanks to a great game engine and games that have already attempted the content.

    StarMade has made a lot of mistakes, but let me put it this way, if I had $1,000,000 I wanted to invest in a voxel space sandbox, I'd invest it in StarMade over Skywanderers any day. Pretty things are pretty, but I'd rather have my developers working on the foundations for the game, instead of prettying it up so early into development.

    There is no doubt in my mind that StarMade will always be the better game. That being said, there's a big risk that Skywanderers is going to catch the attention of the public with its eye candy, making promises it can't achieve and misleading people (cough No Man's Sky). Making the market sceptical of similar space games dooming StarMade to be ignored by the public forever, a lost gem.
     

    Calhoun

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    Hi, I'm a pre-alpha tester for Skywanderers. I've played some, as well as watched gameplay content, so I have a rough idea of where the game is in development. I'm a game developer myself, so can speak a little on my perspective of the two games.

    Skywanders positives...
    • Skywanderers is visually superior to StarMade. The post processing effects, lighting, particles, UI feedback, universe backdrop are much more refined, giving the game a polish lacking in StarMade.
    TBH I'm not a great fan of the textures. They look cheap, low res, and dirty.

    Also the character model is the most ridiculous thing I have ever seen.
     
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    Raiben ! Did you build that giant unfolding ship of death?! :eek: I swear I saw you build the exact same thing,it is you right?!
     

    NeonSturm

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    1. Made in Unity, great for getting smaller to medium projects off the ground quickly, but the lack of access to the low level leaves little room for optimisation work necessary for a massive voxel space game with millions of blocks entities flying, colliding, fighting in 3D space.
    2. Won't scale effectively, for the reasons listed above in my talk about Unity, but also the design choices made. A heavy focus on aesthetics takes up a lot of resources. Unity graphics, while nice, don't really scale too well. With the plethora of non-block (smaller) objects able to be used, the performance impact doesn't allow for this sort of detail to be scaled. Again, if Skywanderers is aiming for the scale of StarMade, this was a poor design choice.
    3. No Physics implemented. This is a big one, most people won't realise how big of a thing this is. Physics is a lot of work. Not even collisions. If graphics in Skywanderers is 0.5-1% (using Unity) of work (which is quite generous), Physics is at least 25% of the total work required. Physics in a continuously changing voxel environment is a beast to deal with. This point alone is enough to see how much work they have to catch up.
    4. Planets are 3D placeholders. All the cool planets you see? Don't exist. They are merely 3D models, you can not go to them. This is not implemented at all. That's a lot of work to implement.
    5. No game mechanics are functional, power, shields, weapons... While there are turret systems and "weapons" they are all visual. Why do you think the scenes in the trailer either cut before weapon impact or are disguised by explosions? :)
    6. Lacking plenty of content already in StarMade, to name a few... NPCs, Fleets, Crafting, Trading
    7. Multiplayer appears to be minimal, lots of work still needs to be done here. This is another big point, multiplayer is hard to do. Although Unity likely handles a lot, I'm sure there's plenty of development time to be invested there.
    I mostly agree with arouq both on bad and good sides.

    But I think SM focused "too much" on physics, 3D planets, MP-combat and mechanics. What I mean is:
    1. Plants and toilets could be pictures for walls or community-content models limited by polygon-count.
    2. Physics could be down-scaled from block-scale to convex shapes (min…max x/y/z along 3 lines).
    3. Planets could be 3D angular bump-maps with build-sites for players to build on.
    Not too much for a realistic game, but too much for a game which is just fun to play and allows to build with blocks.
    This is not bad, but it's too much effort. I don't think any project above 3 years development time is a good idea while the market changes so rapidly.

    If you want a bit more lego and less discussion, I have a nice video for you too:
     
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    TBH I'm not a great fan of the textures. They look cheap, low res, and dirty.

    Also the character model is the most ridiculous thing I have ever seen.
    That's why i like it. That's so funny how can't you laugh as soon as you see one ?
    Also, low res textures got their charm too. Bring you back to minecraft with it's low res textures when you couldn't have something better than 16x16.
     
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    Hi, I'm a pre-alpha tester for Skywanderers. I've played some, as well as watched gameplay content, so I have a rough idea of where the game is in development. I'm a game developer myself, so can speak a little on my perspective of the two games.

    (..)
    Which leads me to what I think are the biggest negatives for Skywanderers.

    • Made in Unity, great for getting smaller to medium projects off the ground quickly, but the lack of access to the low level leaves little room for optimisation work necessary for a massive voxel space game with millions of blocks entities flying, colliding, fighting in 3D space.
    • Won't scale effectively, for the reasons listed above in my talk about Unity, but also the design choices made. A heavy focus on aesthetics takes up a lot of resources. Unity graphics, while nice, don't really scale too well. With the plethora of non-block (smaller) objects able to be used, the performance impact doesn't allow for this sort of detail to be scaled. Again, if Skywanderers is aiming for the scale of StarMade, this was a poor design choice.
    • No Physics implemented. This is a big one, most people won't realise how big of a thing this is. Physics is a lot of work. Not even collisions. If graphics in Skywanderers is 0.5-1% (using Unity) of work (which is quite generous), Physics is at least 25% of the total work required. Physics in a continuously changing voxel environment is a beast to deal with. This point alone is enough to see how much work they have to catch up.
    • Planets are 3D placeholders. All the cool planets you see? Don't exist. They are merely 3D models, you can not go to them. This is not implemented at all. That's a lot of work to implement.
    • No game mechanics are functional, power, shields, weapons... While there are turret systems and "weapons" they are all visual. Why do you think the scenes in the trailer either cut before weapon impact or are disguised by explosions? :)
    • Lacking plenty of content already in StarMade, to name a few... NPCs, Fleets, Crafting, Trading
    • Multiplayer appears to be minimal, lots of work still needs to be done here. This is another big point, multiplayer is hard to do. Although Unity likely handles a lot, I'm sure there's plenty of development time to be invested there.
    (..)
    There is no doubt in my mind that StarMade will always be the better game. That being said, there's a big risk that Skywanderers is going to catch the attention of the public with its eye candy, making promises it can't achieve and misleading people (cough No Man's Sky). Making the market sceptical of similar space games dooming StarMade to be ignored by the public forever, a lost gem.
    You said it better than me. I tried to point out the same. You focused on what is lacking in your negative points summary, I said that the not jet existing mechanics need at least 2 years to code.

    Nice to know some inside knowledge though. (And getting some confirmation for my thoughts on SW. =) )

    And I totally agree: SW seems to jump on the space sandbox hype train with shiny graphics and nice promisses for the stuff everyone wants. To be honest the graphics of SW in the trailer are a little to happy and friendly for my eye. SW will be about pvp, but I don't feel comfortable shooting things to dust when the universe seems such a happy place to be in. =)
     
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