Skill Tree/Abilities

[Khazzy]

So I'd like to purpose a game longevity/balance idea I have

THOUGHTS

Starmade is pretty fun but my issue is its extremely too easy to snowball out of control with power, mining, selling mats, and pirate farming yield pretty good results across the board for personal growth but unfortunately because of this for me I play Starmade for a few hours before I'm tired because I've reached a very high level of power and size fairly quick, so I purpose a level or personal growth for players to slow the pace a bit.

SKILL/TECH TREE

To both give the game a little bit of player depth and make growth not feel cancerous I purpose that players doing certain actions net them better tech. Hear me out, I would have it a player at the start of a server cannot access certain blocks, the player cannot purchase them or if he does get some he cannot use them/place them. To unlock blocks players would start with simple tasks, building a ship would net you your first unlock which could be say a few weapons, you're now able to purchase them and utilize them. As the player mines they can unlock say the ability to craft Standard or Advanced factories or give them a minor bonus to mining that goes up to a hardcap as the "level" in mining. This same thing could go with unlocking other weapons as they use the cannon or other weapons, and or slight personal upgrades when they use them like slight reload speed, power use and maybe damage.

Things like the Shop module could be unlocked after say they sell or buy a certain amount of blocks/items, the warp gate computer and modules could be unlocked after they travel a certain distance with jump drives.

better armor, shields, and shield capacity blocks, could be rewarded as the player progress to give a feeling of actually growing and building better ships. Sure a high level player could still snowball and build insane ships but this way they'd have to take the time to get everything if they want everything.

"What if a low level player gets in a high grade ship?"

Easy, the server could check if the player has the skill/clearance to use the parts on that ship, if they don't they simply can't enter or access parts of the ship, they can still dock and operate computers of weapons they can use but cannot operate the ship itself.

And on this whole thing later when the devs implement a persistent character they could elongate what it takes to go up in the tree and make it saved to the character, maybe even have skills and abilities like Eve go with a character.

Thats abit of my idea, what do you all think?

 

[BDLS]

This type of suggestion comes every so often and it's fairly universally disliked. I personally don't want tiers for blocks in a sandbox game. Nor the old timers on a new server I joined having access to better types of blocks when they are already set up with larger miners, factories, and battleships. You could look at advanced armor as something as a difficult thing to use on your ships. I also think locking people out of ships that use the higher tier materials you suggested goes against the spirit of the game.

Ai npcs leveling up specific skills has been discussed and would be nice.

 

[Edymnion]

Agreed. At it's heart this is still a voxel sandbox game.

Limiting someone's ability to build what they want in a genre of game that is literally defined by your ability to build whatever you want is not a good idea.

You have the ability to advance as slowly or as quickly as you like. Not really the game's fault if you can't hold yourself back, IMO.

 

[Ithirahad]

I support a tech tree, but this would not be the way to make it work. Ever. Eeeeeveeeerrrrr.

 

[Khazzy]

Well, I see its a universally hated idea, how would you guys do the tech tree?

 

[Mr.Steam]

I like tech trees in a lot of games, but I agree with the other posters that Starmade has its own natural built in "tech tree". Learning how to use logic circuits and rails is hard enough to master without introducing artificial limits.

 

[godmars]

Agreed. At it's heart this is still a voxel sandbox game.

Limiting someone's ability to build what they want in a genre of game that is literally defined by your ability to build whatever you want is not a good idea.

IMO, If you want to build whatever you want, whenever you want, with no restrictions, play creative mode.

I do agree that a skill tree is not the solution, though. If anything, there just needs to be a rework of the economy to prevent people from scaling up so rapidly. (If you believe that's an issue, anyway)

 

[lilheartless]

IMO, If you want to build whatever you want, whenever you want, with no restrictions, play creative mode.

I do agree that a skill tree is not the solution, though. If anything, there just needs to be a rework of the economy to prevent people from scaling up so rapidly. (If you believe that's an issue, anyway)

it is an issue and it is an economic fault that can be fixed with some currency and mining changes but i also agree some artificial tech limitation is not the way to go about it.

 

[jayman38]

I have been playing NAEV lately, and you have to buy a license for a larger vessel before buying bigger, and licenses aren't available everywhere. If NPCs get ship lots to see to players, buyable licenses could restrict a player's ability to buy big. Maybe such a thing could be a mod some day. It depends on how the game's play mechanics shake out over time.

 

[Krougal]

Thankfully this community is mostly against such nonsense. I regret buying some other games because they are going this route.
Techtrees have their place, in strategy and RTS games. Skilltrees have their place too, in RPGs.

Arbitrary levels I can deal with in singleplayer games but they are an outdated mechanic and just plain lazy in this day and age. In multiplayer they just create artificial barriers between playing together with your friends and when pvp is involved make for more griefing. This is from observations of playing MMOs since they were a thing.

PVP should be based on player skills, not the toons skills. I don't enjoy ganking some low level noob anymore than I enjoy being on the recieving end of such behavior. The skill here is in designing your ship with the same resources everyone else has and then how good a pilot and gunner you are. Resource gathering adds more dimension (especially with cargo changes coming) and then there's the social dynamic of factions. So there will still be the haves and have nots. No need to slap more artificial limits on top.

Even if I considered it a good general concept (which I don't), too many games these days are trying to throw everything and the kitchen sink in, and it becomes an overambitious unfinished mess. There's enough balancing that needs to be done continually a game like this as things are added to it, and to have some system which would need a ton of balancing that really doesn't add value thrown in makes no sense at all.

 

[Khazzy]

From what I remember with every and any PvP experience in this game it doesn't matter how good you are a pilot, if your ship doesn't beat their shield numbers (which imo the current shield system and power system are abit ass backwards) you're never going to win. Its no fun in a game with such monstrous scale, yes I could spend forever build and perfecting such a ship but its no fun the sheer size and scale you have to go to just to achieve the very basis of a fun PvP battle.

 

[Krougal]

From what I remember with every and any PvP experience in this game it doesn't matter how good you are a pilot, if your ship doesn't beat their shield numbers (which imo the current shield system and power system are abit ass backwards) you're never going to win. Its no fun in a game with such monstrous scale, yes I could spend forever build and perfecting such a ship but its no fun the sheer size and scale you have to go to just to achieve the very basis of a fun PvP battle.

You are absolutely correct. The ship systems game balance needs a tremendous amount of work and should always be priority #1.
Skills and techtree don't do anything to improve that, all it adds is who has played the game longer on particular server has an advantage over noobs.

 

[nightrune]

From what I remember with every and any PvP experience in this game it doesn't matter how good you are a pilot, if your ship doesn't beat their shield numbers (which imo the current shield system and power system are abit ass backwards) you're never going to win. Its no fun in a game with such monstrous scale, yes I could spend forever build and perfecting such a ship but its no fun the sheer size and scale you have to go to just to achieve the very basis of a fun PvP battle.

I'm hoping to see the balance against large ships happen with boarding. It means larger sections of your ship will have to be open and not just crammed with weapons and shields.

 

[alterintel]

What about giving hired NPC's a skill tree/abilities?

 

[cyberus111]

Hmmm ... tech tree and skill tree ... so Starmade can be just like every other game?

 

[Ithirahad]

Hmmm ... tech tree and skill tree ... so Starmade can be just like every other game?

The thing is, tech trees and skill trees aren't there just because "games use it so this game should use it too," it's because games need some kind of progression, otherwise people will get into the game, screw around a bit, get bored and leave. Which is exactly what Starmade, without a tech tree and/or other form of progression, tends to have people doing.

 

[kiraen]

it's because games need some kind of progression, otherwise people will get into the game, screw around a bit, get bored and leave. Which is exactly what Starmade, without a tech tree and/or other form of progression, tends to have people doing.

um...no. StarMade is a sandbox game. The whole point is that there is no pre-defined arbitrary progression. I can do what I want, when I want. If someone gets bored and leaves then this was never the game for them to begin with.

As far as having a tech tree, this sort of exists with the progression of factories. I admit the recipes need to be sorted out a bit better and adjusted, but there no point in doing that until all the 'resources' are actually in the game. (aka: flora, fauna). But even when that is done it will be relatively simple to complete the 'progression', especially since you can ignore it if you want (full factories will be available on the spawn station).

Skill tree, just no. NPCs will have skills, but not a tree. Player skills reside in the grey matter between (some) peoples ears.

I'm all for adding achievements and challenges. That just sounds like fun. Especially since I don't have to do them to play the game. Also, let's not forget the planned questing system. This, too, will add some structure for those that need it. But, again, I won't have to.


If this was an RPG, RTS, FPS, or practically any other kind of game (even a CTCG) I would feel different. But this idea is completely contrary to the basic concept of the game. This is not StarMade.

 

[Ithirahad]

Minecraft is a sandbox game too. It has armor and weapon tiers, and then later-game tiers of enchantments, potion effects, new dimensions and materials, etc., all gated or effectively gated by the tier before them, without sacrificing a feeling of freedom. Still, it has a solid progression, which is long enough to get players hooked and encourage multiplayer combat or cooperation to get ahead. It also presents a feeling of challenge we just don't have around here... There, there's always some danger that can really ruin your day (especially if you go out looking for trouble) until very late endgame stuff. And even then, there tends to be an upkeep fee for invincible-level power, so there's usually incentive to keep going. ADDITIONALLY there is a creative aspect of being able to build whatever you want, with several subsystems including redstone logic gates (our logic), automation mechanics, piston stuff (our rails), minecarts and roller coasters, etc... But that is not all there is.

 

[MacThule]

I would have it a player at the start of a server cannot access certain blocks, the player cannot purchase them or if he does get some he cannot use them/place them. To unlock blocks players would start with simple tasks, building a ship would net you your first unlock which could be say a few weapons, you're now able to purchase them and utilize them. As the player mines they can unlock say the ability to craft Standard or Advanced factories or give them a minor bonus to mining that goes up to a hardcap as the "level" in mining. This same thing could go with unlocking other weapons as they use the cannon or other weapons, and or slight personal upgrades when they use them like slight reload speed, power use and maybe damage.

Skill in Starmade is based on a player's actual abilities, not a pretend system of character abilities that rewards players for time spent grinding. You learn the tricks that make each system work at its best and you can build better ships. Don't and your ships will always be inferior, regardless of size. Practice fighting and your combat skills will improve. Learn to build a faster more efficient miner and your mining ability will improve.

Your proposal - skill trees - requires so-called "experience" which is a system of points awarded to players for grinding (spending large amounts of time performing tedious, repetitive busy work rather than actually learning systems or improving reflexes) and is deeply unappealing for anyone who isn't a dependent being supported by parents, a spouse or the state. Because players with lives and jobs and families of their own are absolutely, positively not interested in being forced to invest 20 hours shooting down the same stupid pirate mob before leveling and being "allowed" to start building a frigate-class ship or whatever.

Experience systems reward players with outrageous amounts of idle time to invest and penalize players who balance gaming with real life. They actually prevent true skill or ability from being relevant since a brilliant engineer with insane reflexes will still not be able to defeat a mentally disabled person who has all day every day to level up and be insanely stronger just because the massive amount of time wasted grinding makes the latter more powerful.

Experience point schemes and skill tree restrictions don't contribute to the game, they only enforce an artificial monopoly on in-game wealth and power for the least productive members of society. Actual skill & intelligence - not idleness - should be rewarded.

 

[Ithirahad]

...As if StarMade doesn't have grinding too? If it weren't for planets (which lag servers anyway) or custom configs, mining would be a nigh-intolerable grind, and unchanging, and unending... bluh... At least an experience-type grind would be leading to some definite end.