Recognized by Council New Territory System

[Reilly Reese]

I'm confused. Why is this a bad thing?

Theme park station with rails beyond count crashes server.

Theme park station has ride that kills players.

Theme park station has ride that traps players.

 

[0Samuel0]

This is pretty cool sounding.
One point of uncertainty is planets. Do they add full FP for all of their blocks? Do they have no benefits?
I suggest that a single block on a planet is as effective as a single block station, but each additional block placed on a planet will have some percentage bonus over something on a station. So a large planetary base would prove superior to a station of the same size, yet claiming a planet with a single block wouldn't work.

Theme park station with rails beyond count crashes server.

Theme park station has ride that kills players.

Theme park station has ride that traps players.

This comment still applies, although I doubt the accuracy of the first point.

I'm confused. Why is this a bad thing?

 

[ltmauve]

It's a bad thign because then every base you make has to be interesting enough that people will want to visit it often. Expanding your territory will be hard simply by virtue of that fact that copied stations won't attract tourists. Want to expand? Well, you need to come up with a completely new station design because otherwise it won't get a high score.
And honestly tourism and war are at cross purposes. Guess which one has systems in the game right now?

 

[0Samuel0]

It's a bad thign because then every base you make has to be interesting enough that people will want to visit it often. Expanding your territory will be hard simply by virtue of that fact that copied stations won't attract tourists. Want to expand? Well, you need to come up with a completely new station design because otherwise it won't get a high score.
And honestly tourism and war are at cross purposes. Guess which one has systems in the game right now?

I don't actually think it is a good idea, I just think it would be rather funny. Not a huge advocate for making theme parks...
Although as a small, side bonus, it could be interesting, making diplomatic ships and stuff like that could be cool. Theme parks, tourism... kinda silly.

 

[DivineEvil]

Half-baked incentives to decorative station is a big no-go. It has nothing to do with faction power. Let players do the stations they want, and can do. Both ship and station designs already have a definite value as the reputation source for the faction. It's in the best interest for faction leaders to provide their members with the convenient and attractive stations, but if a given faction express no concerns for its public image, then it should be fine to build utility-centered ones without any drawbacks.

 

[ltmauve]

One point of uncertainty is planets. Do they add full FP for all of their blocks? Do they have no benefits?
I suggest that a single block on a planet is as effective as a single block station,

What I was going for

but each additional block placed on a planet will have some percentage bonus over something on a station. So a large planetary base would prove superior to a station of the same size, yet claiming a planet with a single block wouldn't work.

I was thinking maybe instead claiming the planet raised the max FP the sectors around it could provide but also raised the max TCM by the same percentage
So going by the example in the OP (25% initial claim, 600 TCM for max claim,) the sectors around a planet would give 100% max FP with 600 TCM and 175% max FP with 1200 TCM. So it's not "make a huge planetary base," it's "develop the area around the planet as much as possible, and don't lose it."

Also, I was thinking of another mechanic to go along with this: Labeling stations to give bonuses. So I could label a station as a mining station and it would contribute towards an even higher mining bonus. Or I could designate them as factories, or shipyards, or scanner stations, and it would contribute to turning the sectors into something with that boost, similar to the way stations contribute to turning the sectors into your territory.

 

[kiraen]

Theme park station with rails beyond count crashes server.

Theme park station has ride that kills players.

Theme park station has ride that traps players.

1) Why would my railercoaster crash the server and not that massive 50bil block drone launcher/planet miner? Oh wait....
1,2,3) Counter productive, not visiting that station again. There will always be bad designs and these will be punished in the court of public opinion.


Right now, I see no reason what so ever to visit any station but my own (and even that is limited). If I need to buy something from some other faction/station I don't need to dock or even leave my core. Get close, press B. Done, bye-bye now. I don't even need to get a visual of the station.

Might as well just make a giant hollow sphere. How about I toss on some deathcube turrets while I'm at it? That's all I need to claim a sector and defend it.

Stations should have some real purpose. This is one of the reasons I'm looking forward to the shipyard update and I think shops should have a bit of an overhaul as well(*). The upcoming cargo update seems like it would at least offer the possibility of making a transshipment warehouse station. But what is going to draw people to my station instead of the station the next sector over offering the exact same services?

• Prices - Only so much you can do here and still make a profit (shop update?)
• Location - In this example, we're only talking one sector difference to the left or right. This could potentially have a significant impact in other situations, but once it's built, it ain't moving.
  
• Attractions - If I offer a better looking station, some side shows and a couple mini games to while away the time while your ship is undergoing repairs and cargo is being loaded, which station are you going to dock at?

So yeah, the number of visitors a station gets should have some direct effect on the Faction Points. From a programming stand point it doesn't really matter how it's decorated or what frills and gimmicks you use. But a station that gets more visitors has a greater social, economic, and political standing.


(*) I would really like Shops to have a fixed and/or editable range, allow multiple shops with different inventories, different prices based on faction/standing, etc etc. But that's off topic and I'm sure there are multiple posts already.

 

[ltmauve]

Might as well just make a giant hollow sphere. How about I toss on some deathcube turrets while I'm at it? That's all I need to claim a sector and defend it.

See Divine Evil's point about players wanting to join a good-looking faction. Sure you have a doomcube station that gives max TCM, but guess what? No one will want to join your dinky little noobcube faction. Yes, having doomcubes is the idea method for PvP, but most PvP builders make sure their ships at least look good on the outside, even if they are all systems.
Your tourism idea means that players will have to spend too much time just looking at their stations in order to hold them. Dumb. Also, who is going to look at someone else's station when their own needs to be gwaked at in order for the system to give you the FP you want? It's not going to work. No one has any incentive to visit someone else's station, no one wants to waste time having to look at a station until a bar fills up and gets you some score.
Nope.

Pulling these over from another thread

I would prefer this to have it eventually lead to how much TCM would determine the number of invincible stations a faction could be owned, making conquest valuable and needed.

Territory/Conquest System
Confirmed in the sense that it will accomplish the same goal, not necessarily work as described here.

I'm iffy about giving people in a war more than one invicinble station. I would like them to be beefier and tougher through having a different config for their stats. However, I do think that stations should be invicinble until war is declared.

Vanhelzing , what can you tell us right now?

 

[kookster]

What if you just made the area that is claimed based purely on the mass of the station. I would recommend not having all the % stuff. And if that overlaps with another claim who ever have it claimed first has it.

 

[ltmauve]

mass of the station. I would recommend not having all the % stuff. And if that overlaps with another claim who ever have it claimed first has it.

Using a TCM instead of mass prioritizes blocks that require resources to make. In other words, not just dumping all the dirt form mining on your station. As for percentages and the rule for overlap, that encourages people to build large stations instead of just dropping down a faction block on the hull block you get when you start a station.

 

[Criss]

what can you tell us right now?

Uh nothing really to be honest. I am just as much in the dark about the details of this system as you are. We just know what we want to accomplish there. I'm not too concerned since there is plenty of time to figure it all out.

 

[kiraen]

I must not be making myself clear, because you are agreeing with me to tell me I'm wrong.

See Divine Evil's point about players wanting to join a good-looking faction. Sure you have a doomcube station that gives max TCM, but guess what? No one will want to join your dinky little noobcube faction. Yes, having doomcubes is the idea method for PvP, but most PvP builders make sure their ships at least look good on the outside, even if they are all systems.

Doomcube == bad, we agree?

Your tourism idea means that players will have to spend too much time just looking at their stations in order to hold them. Dumb. Also, who is going to look at someone else's station when their own needs to be gwaked at in order for the system to give you the FP you want? It's not going to work.

I think we are seeing the mechanics a bit differently. You wouldn't get points for looking at your own station. You would get points for other factions visiting your station. Example, each independent trader or allied faction member that docks at your station in a 24 hour period gets you one tourist point. TP translate to FP on a curve, 1 TP = 1 FP, 3 TP = 2 FP, 9 TP = 3 FP or some such.

And all you have to do is enter station gravity to be counted, not stand around staring at the walls.

No one has any incentive to visit someone else's station, no one wants to waste time having to look at a station until a bar fills up and gets you some score.
Nope.

Exactly, there is no incentive. Incentive comes in the form of support and services provided by your station. You get no TP by going to someone else's station. Just them coming to yours. Why would you come to my station instead of your own? Maybe you need cash or a resource that I have, so you come to shop. Maybe you got jumped by pirates and my repair depot is closer or faster. Maybe you want to play a few rounds of laser tag in my arena.

Then again, maybe I have nothing you want. I just have a dinky little noobcube, I get no visitors and therefore less FP. If I want the tourist bonus for my faction station, I'm actually gonna have to put some effort into it. And it doesn't have to be completely new and original every time. Just useful and fun.


Summary: I want the FP that you can give me, so I need to build a pretty decent station to give you a reason to come visit.

 

[Lecic]

I think we are seeing the mechanics a bit differently. You wouldn't get points for looking at your own station. You would get points for other factions visiting your station. Example, each independent trader or allied faction member that docks at your station in a 24 hour period gets you one tourist point. TP translate to FP on a curve, 1 TP = 1 FP, 3 TP = 2 FP, 9 TP = 3 FP or some such.

The FP bonus from tourism should not be required in any way. Seriously, why would I want people visiting my military or mining installations? A military faction shouldn't need to rely on tourism to stay afloat.

 

[kookster]

Using a TCM instead of mass prioritizes blocks that require resources to make. In other words, not just dumping all the dirt form mining on your station. As for percentages and the rule for overlap, that encourages people to build large stations instead of just dropping down a faction block on the hull block you get when you start a station.

Good point, but I still don't think we should do the 50% claimed area, I think it should just claim a sector or not and base the area off the stations build. so if you have a massive station thats built from lots of advanced stuff that would claim a lot of area 100% and if you have a small station it would claim a small area 100%. This would keep it very simple but i feel balanced. What are your thoughts? Either way I like this whole idea more then the current system.

 

[ltmauve]

It's an alternative. However that doesn't encourage building a lot of stations in the core of a territory, since max claim happens by default. Once you've claimed the territory, no need to build up on it. The partial claim method, if the values are set high enough, would encourage factions to both build lots of stations over an area and keep building up on them.
How would you solve boundary disputes with your idea?

 

[DivineEvil]

Doomcube == bad, we agree?

Doomcubes are bad. We don't need to add anything to stress it out. The entire community is all over the idea on forums and on servers about how bad they are. There's junior members who does not possess the skills to make anything better though, and some people who does not have enough free time to make fine designs either. Starmade does not in itself requires any underlying penalties for inferior design methods for either stations or ships. People usually tend to do their best anyway, and other people tend to judge them fairly.

If you want to suggest FP bonuses for trading, by taking the small ratio from the credit value of specific blocks your shops have sold or obtained over an arbitrary time period, do that. If you want to suggest FP bonuses for repairing ships outside of your faction, do that. If you want to suggest FP bonuses for processing ores and salvage on your stations, do that. But don't bother with 'visiting'. It is way too mundane and meaningless by itself, and easy to abuse. I for one do not want to even read the endless 'please visit my stations for the points!' requests, which would follow.

 

[kiraen]

The FP bonus from tourism should not be required in any way. Seriously, why would I want people visiting my military or mining installations? A military faction shouldn't need to rely on tourism to stay afloat.

Who said they were required? In fact, the word 'bonus' specifically indicates that it's extra.

But don't bother with 'visiting'. It is way too mundane and meaningless by itself, and easy to abuse. I for one do not want to even read the endless 'please visit my stations for the points!' requests, which would follow.

I suggest you look into the /mute command. If you are a server admin, you might want to consider examining /kick and /ban. I imagine you will find them quite useful. Points or no points, you're still going to get those requests. "COme see how awsome I am, plzplzplz!" Let's not forget the unending advertisement of shops and repair yards which you seem ok with.

If you don't want people visiting your base, play single player.

The idea of encouraging social hubs and quality design is not meaningless. Trying to inspire something in Starmade other then PVP and planet mining is not meaningless. Recognizing someone for their effort and creativity by giving them a few bonus faction points is not meaningless.

Attacking a suggestion in the Suggestions Forum is meaningless. Until and unless Shine says otherwise, my idea is as valid as anyone else's. Don't expect me to willing be limited by your small view of what this game can be.

 

[DivineEvil]

I suggest you look into the /mute command. If you are a server admin, you might want to consider examining /kick and /ban. I imagine you will find them quite useful. Points or no points, you're still going to get those requests. "COme see how awsome I am, plzplzplz!" Let's not forget the unending advertisement of shops and repair yards which you seem ok with.

Advertisements of shops are viable at the moment, yet they're extermely rare. The reason is that shopping requires a very specific demand, i.e. a need to buy or sell something, thus advertising shops in itself is counter-productive. Same will go for the ship repairs - it is easier to offer these services on request, rather than the other way around. This is not true for "just visiting". If FP gain is too small, it will not going to make any difference and wont worth the effort, and if it's any good, then people will abuse it. This will probably lead to additional server rules and conflicts. This is my personal insight, and thus I don't support it.

If you don't want people visiting your base, play single player.

What this one has to do with anything?

The idea of encouraging social hubs and quality design is not meaningless. Trying to inspire something in Starmade other then PVP and planet mining is not meaningless. Recognizing someone for their effort and creativity by giving them a few bonus faction points is not meaningless.

People do not unveil creativity for points. A person can be more creative or less creative. The creativity and corresponding skills originate from outside of the game. Every player is creative just as much as he/she want to be. Bonus points are futile to affect that. Providing an adequate repair service or practically beneficial shop are both completely another story.

Attacking a suggestion in the Suggestions Forum is meaningless. Until and unless Shine says otherwise, my idea is as valid as anyone else's. Don't expect me to willing be limited by your small view of what this game can be.

Attacking suggestions is all what Suggestions forum is all about. If your suggestion is not supported by the community, then it holds no water for developeres either. The point of Suggestions forum is to collect people ideas and filter out the ones which are impractical, far-fetched, unnecessary, overcomplicated etc. Developers evaluate community's opinion to determine what's worth it or not.

In this particular instance, OP is logically established and provides a good and relatively simple system to encourage faction territorial development. Something that makes a game more sophisticated and dynamic without excessive detail and unjustified effort is what I stand for. I'm not going to ignore suggestions that wouldn't provide beneficial returns for the effort given to implement them.

I'm not merely looking at what can be. I'm looking at what would worth it, and what would fit in. Your judgement over my views does not concern me.

 

[Reilly Reese]

Let's not forget the unending advertisement of shops and repair yards which you seem ok with.

Such an advertisement exists?

Everyone for the most part wants to stay independently operational without the assistance of other factions unless they are factions involved here in the forums. The NPC shops also are not only self maintaining but also much more abundant and reliable than player shops.