Mining, Planet Resources & Mantle Extractors: Improving resource acquisition.

[Ithirahad]

Currently, planets, from a gameplay perspective, are kind of silly. They're not much more than big, laggy asteroids - You mine them, get a massive pile of resources, and destroy them. Hence, I'm proposing a few changes:

NERFS:

• Planets should only have two types of resources each, period. The fact that they commonly have everything or nearly everything effectively renders asteroids obsolete. (Also, planets should have a higher chance of having the same resources as asteroids spawned in their area, but that's not necessary.)
• Planets should not be salvageable with ship salvage beams. This renders asteroids even more obsolete. Just say that the planet's atmosphere is interrupting the salvage beam or something.

BUFFS:

• Asteroids, by default, should have a higher multiplier when mining than they currently do. Shattered Skies has a very large multiplier (in addition to a boosted amount of capsules per refined resource) and it doesn't feel in any way unbalanced, save for possibly when refining the massive hauls one can currently obtain from planets.
• Planets should also have a higher multiplier - in fact, possibly an order of magnitude more than asteroids. Also, the "Lucky!" bonus should become a multiplier (x2 or x3) rather than a set number of extra resource items. This way, landing on a planet and mining the resources on the ground becomes worth it.

ADDITIONS:

• I am, as I've often said, a supporter of some form of mantle extractor. This would be a special factory block that only works on planets, and produces a certain amount of resources per tick based on random values assigned to each planet. For example, one planet might produce 5 units of Zercaner and 3 units of Sapsun per tick, while another (rarely) might produce 30 units of Rammet and 22 units of Sertise. The smallest amounts and the resources available closest to a star would be the most common, and the resources available furthest away from a star (i.e. Rammet and Sertise) and the largest amounts of resources per tick would be the rarest.
  These extractors would be expensive, complicated to make, and any type of enhancer blocks for them would probably use faction points (rather than extra power). It might even be a good idea to only allow one per planet plate or something.
• Perhaps we could have pirate planets - planet with pirate bases - spawn rarely... These would have a very high extraction bonus on a single plate, but the extractor would be deep within a pirate base (on top of the faction block, inside the base's core room) and require a player to fight off orbiting ships, hostile wildlife, pirate NPCs, and more to claim the planet for themselves or their own faction.

For more on resource distribution and how I think it should work in the universe as a whole, see this topic:
http://starmadedock.net/threads/une...-and-density-getting-the-wheels-turning.6425/

 

[Lecic]

Pirate controlled planets on top of everything else would be sweet. I like the idea of landing on the planet after defeating the orbital fleet and fighting my way through the corridors to take control of the planet.

 

[Valiant70]

You've got a lot of good thought going here.

Planets should not be salvageable with ship salvage beams. This renders asteroids even more obsolete. Just say that the planet's atmosphere is interrupting the salvage beam or something.

Scifi-wise, this makes sense because high energy beams could cause chemical reactions with the atmosphere and wreck whatever you're trying to extract. Alternatively, salvage beams could work on planets, but at around 1%-3% of their normal efficiency. Say the beams can compensate for atmospheric interference at the cost of efficiency.

• Asteroids, by default, should have a higher multiplier when mining than they currently do. Shattered Skies has a very large multiplier (in addition to a boosted amount of capsules per refined resource) and it doesn't feel in any way unbalanced, save for possibly when refining the massive hauls one can currently obtain from planets.

• Planets should also have a higher multiplier - in fact, possibly an order of magnitude more than asteroids. Also, the "Lucky!" bonus should become a multiplier (x2 or x3) rather than a set number of extra resource items. This way, landing on a planet and mining the resources on the ground becomes worth it.

Yep. All the way, man. Ragnarok Galaxy has banned planet mining and mega-buffed asteroid mining to compensate. (Shooting a planet with a salvage beam array is a bannable offense. We make allowances for small role-play-oriented surface mining devices like little drills.) A change like this to the game would solve the problems and render the extra rule unnecessary.

I am, as I've often said, a supporter of some form of mantle extractor. This would be a special factory block that only works on planets, and produces a certain amount of resources per tick based on random values assigned to each planet. For example, one planet might produce 5 units of Zercaner and 3 units of Sapsun per tick, while another (rarely) might produce 30 units of Rammet and 22 units of Sertise. The smallest amounts and the resources available closest to a star would be the most common, and the resources available furthest away from a star (i.e. Rammet and Sertise) and the largest amounts of resources per tick would be the rarest.
These extractors would be expensive, complicated to make, and any type of enhancer blocks for them would probably use faction points (rather than extra power). It might even be a good idea to only allow one per planet plate or something.

Yeah, something like this would be a good idea if properly balanced. A faction would have a nice export product if they found a planet that produces a lot of shield cap ingredients. Such a planet would make a desirable home base.

Besides ores and crystals, I think there should be organic resources, not just for food but for construction as well. Algae-like things making construction foam, wood, bio-plastic and that sort of stuff. It would be interesting if Starmade electronics contained organic substances or derivatives of organic substances, so you would need some sort of plant or microorganism to make computers. It would add some variety.

 

[Ithirahad]

Scifi-wise, this makes sense because high energy beams could cause chemical reactions with the atmosphere and wreck whatever you're trying to extract. Alternatively, salvage beams could work on planets, but at around 1%-3% of their normal efficiency. Say the beams can compensate for atmospheric interference at the cost of efficiency.

Eh, 1%-3% of their normal efficiency sounds good on paper, but in practice with a large enough salvager this could still be exploited to create a bunch of lag for trolling/griefing purposes. I think it's better to just disable it altogether.

Besides ores and crystals, I think there should be organic resources, not just for food but for construction as well. Algae-like things making construction foam, wood, bio-plastic and that sort of stuff. It would be interesting if Starmade electronics contained organic substances or derivatives of organic substances, so you would need some sort of plant or microorganism to make computers. It would add some variety.

Farming is planned, and using farming resources to make building materials is very neo-sci-fi and sounds really cool. I don't have a topic on this yet, though, although I should write one eventually. :p

 

[Crimson-Artist]

we definitely need some kind of planet based resource extractor however i dont think nerfing salvage beams on planets helps the fun factor of building a massive mining/industrial ship. if salvage beams only worked on asteroids then mining ships wouldn't need to be any bigger then 50m-ish which is fine but limiting. few space games allow me to harvest an entire planet so even if mining is boring the thought of having a massive ship with that capability is awesome. Lag can be fixed with optimizations so im not that concerned with it.

The way I would do it is to have salvage beams as an non-renewable immediate gain while planet extractors are a slower but longer term infinite resource. In other words do I take the time to harvest a planet but only get a fixed amount of resources or do i spend the time to set up a extractor which will continuously produce resources as long as I hold this planet. The extraction rates would have to be balanced so it still forces players to go out and mine manually so as it doesn't break the economy/make salvage ships redundant.

 

[Lecic]

we definitely need some kind of planet based resource extractor however i dont think nerfing salvage beams on planets helps the fun factor of building a massive mining/industrial ship. if salvage beams only worked on asteroids then mining ships wouldn't need to be any bigger then 50m-ish which is fine but limiting. few space games allow me to harvest an entire planet so even if mining is boring the thought of having a massive ship with that capability is awesome. Lag can be fixed with optimizations so im not that concerned with it.

The way I would do it is to have salvage beams as an non-renewable immediate gain while planet extractors are a slower but longer term infinite resource. In other words do I take the time to harvest a planet but only get a fixed amount of resources or do i spend the time to set up a extractor which will continuously produce resources as long as I hold this planet. The extraction rates would have to be balanced so it still forces players to go out and mine manually so as it doesn't break the economy/make salvage ships redundant.

Planet mining is cool and all as a concept, but- server lag.

 

[Crimson-Artist]

Planet mining is cool and all as a concept, but- server lag.

agreed but i believe it would hurt more then help to nerf planting mining. theres definitely a way both systems can remain in the game

 

[Lecic]

agreed but i believe it would hurt more then help to nerf planting mining. theres definitely a way both systems can remain in the game

I see no reason the individual plates couldn't be mined after the core is nuked. The main issue from planet mining I've noticed is when the plates are all together.

 

[Crimson-Artist]

Every plate is like its own entity so it might have something to do with the game having to calculate the salvaging of two or more entities rather then one. Again, optimizations

 

[Valiant70]

we definitely need some kind of planet based resource extractor however i dont think nerfing salvage beams on planets helps the fun factor of building a massive mining/industrial ship. if salvage beams only worked on asteroids then mining ships wouldn't need to be any bigger then 50m-ish which is fine but limiting. few space games allow me to harvest an entire planet so even if mining is boring the thought of having a massive ship with that capability is awesome. Lag can be fixed with optimizations so im not that concerned with it.

The way I would do it is to have salvage beams as an non-renewable immediate gain while planet extractors are a slower but longer term infinite resource. In other words do I take the time to harvest a planet but only get a fixed amount of resources or do i spend the time to set up a extractor which will continuously produce resources as long as I hold this planet. The extraction rates would have to be balanced so it still forces players to go out and mine manually so as it doesn't break the economy/make salvage ships redundant.

If we're going to have whole-planet mining, it needs to have its own, more efficient mechanic. Salvage beams simply aren't THAT scalable. Frankly it's a wonder they work as well as they do in a java program.

agreed but i believe it would hurt more then help to nerf planting mining.

Why? Most players I know consider planet mining a "necessary evil" rather than something fun. I honestly can't think of any reason nerfing it would hurt anything, since resource scarcity is virtually nonexistent in this game already, and there is a mining multiplier setting in the configs so server owners can rebalance mining yields as they please.

Here's a random brainstorm idea: salvage beams do not collect resources from planet plates, but may punch or phase through them to the planet's core and damage it while pulling out resources. When enough damage is done, the core is destroyed and a large amount of loot is given. This operation would require only one industrial-scale beam and would require minimal server calculations. This would also separate personal mining on the surface from orbital mining. This concept would require some refinement of course, but hey, it's a brainstorm.

 

[cyberus111]

I see no reason the individual plates couldn't be mined after the core is nuked. The main issue from planet mining I've noticed is when the plates are all together.

*IF* nuking the core did not cause the plates to head off into nowheresland I would not have an issue with nerfing planet mining with anything but hand beams or a some sort of resource extractor type thing.

I realize that not having the plates fly off wouldn't be totally kosher, but the if the blowing the core were to be called "breakup" event rather than a "explosive" event we could make if fly.

 

[Crimson-Artist]

Crimson-Artist that´s not a "plate issue" that can be optimiced its a "request issue" On how mining rays works, the only way to optimice that its changing the way on mining rays works, while you can make a doble or more grid of mining rays of more than 1.500 rays, the lag are going to start.

While most players starts to make planetary mining more lag appear, and that 1.500 rays are for an "small" planetary mining ship usually peps go with 5.000 or more rays on his mining ship.

The only way to that lag way stops its nerfing the maximun numbers of mining rays can handle a ship or change the planetary mining way.

If you thing I am wrong or planetary mining isnt an issue visit the most multiplayer populated server for soem reasson i think you dont know well and never have you tries to fight with 900 of ping ON THE ENTIRE PLAYERS OF THE SERVER, or dont want to lose the fast resources from planetary mining.

I have and I never said Planet mining isn't a server issue, all im saying is it can be made more efficient while preserving the original concept of a massive mining ship eating a planet. im fine with changing the way salvage beams work on planets as long as it promotes the games concept of building a ship (preferably bigger) to do it.

If we're going to have whole-planet mining, it needs to have its own, more efficient mechanic. Salvage beams simply aren't THAT scalable. Frankly it's a wonder they work as well as they do in a java program.


Why? Most players I know consider planet mining a "necessary evil" rather than something fun. I honestly can't think of any reason nerfing it would hurt anything, since resource scarcity is virtually nonexistent in this game already, and there is a mining multiplier setting in the configs so server owners can rebalance mining yields as they please.

Here's a random brainstorm idea: salvage beams do not collect resources from planet plates, but may punch or phase through them to the planet's core and damage it while pulling out resources. When enough damage is done, the core is destroyed and a large amount of loot is given. This operation would require only one industrial-scale beam and would require minimal server calculations. This would also separate personal mining on the surface from orbital mining. This concept would require some refinement of course, but hey, it's a brainstorm.

Mining for hours on end in minecraft is a "necessary evil" but that bit of tedium gives way to the games fun factor, creating things to do it for you. But aside from making better pickaxes and shovels it still relies on player action, no way of mechanizing the process (unless you use mods). speaking conceptually, Starmades strengths is the idea of building it bigger. if theres no reason to make something bigger and by extension more efficient then theres no reason to play. Thats what i mean when i say it would hurt more then help.

I like that idea for planet mining though i would make it so it would preserve the planet while transferring all of its potential resources to your ship rather then destroying the core. That way a planet can become "Dead" and unminble. building a bigger mining ship will increase the speed in which you deplete the core. Perhaps theres some gameplay elements to be had with having Dead worlds.

 

[BDLS]

I love the idea of having to build extractors to mine from the core/mantle whatever. Would really spice up faction warfare and have a nice way to get automatic income. Planets are mostly a nuisance to servers owners, admins, and players at the moment.

I don't feel the game can ever be optimized enough to support the massive thousands of beams planet eaters removing tons of blocks a tick. But who knows maybe schema will surprise us?

 

[Ithirahad]

Nothing wrong with destroyed planets being mineable with salvage beams... Basically, if you need a bit of quick cash or resources and you have something huge you can just blow up a planet, but it's more sustainable and more profitable in the long run to keep it there and put down extractors. (Ideally, if a salvage beam mines a broken planet plate, the massive planetary resource multiplier does not apply and it works the same as with asteroids.)

Speaking conceptually, Starmades strengths is the idea of building it bigger. if theres no reason to make something bigger and by extension more efficient then theres no reason to play. Thats what i mean when i say it would hurt more then help.

This is dumb. This is incredibly dumb. This is so dumb, in fact, that it really really needs to change. >.>
This kind of progression just seems incredibly shallow and causes a lot of technical problems - the bigger something is, the harder it will be on people's computing hardware. If this could be replaced by expansion of influence, upgrading of technology, and other more interesting mechanics, that'd be great. So, let's not assume that this silly current paradigm is a permanent base concept of the game. Kthxbai.

 

[Lecic]

This is dumb. This is incredibly dumb. This is so dumb, in fact, that it really really needs to change. >.>
This kind of progression just seems incredibly shallow and causes a lot of technical problems - the bigger something is, the harder it will be on people's computing hardware. If this could be replaced by expansion of influence, upgrading of technology, and other more interesting mechanics, that'd be great. So, let's not assume that this silly current paradigm is a permanent base concept of the game. Kthxbai.

I'd prefer the game promote having 10 100k ships defending a planet each within controlled territory than having 1 1mil ship docked to your homebase and flying out whenever someone does something that annoys you.

 

[Vladimir Calvin]

I like the idea of a Mantle Extractor or other factory-style block that slowly generates resources. Makes settling on the planet more meaningful than just a base, and makes a different planet more than an aesthetic change. Also, making each planet only have a limited number of resource types is a good idea.

I personally wouldn't want to mine out planets, but I think that it'll be better if its in game. Makes the threat of a super mining beam as a planetary weapon cool for those of you with the hardcore PvP servers. I like the idea of a super Industrial Beam that attacks the planets health rather than destroying blocks, but I'm not sure which would be better after repelling a planet killer attack, repairing a planets health or the headache of replacing all the mined blocks if it goes that route.

Question: do Asteroids actually respawn yet? I do NOT think planets should be allowed to respawn, and the idea of a "dead" planet if all its resources are stripped is neat. Settle a barren world and use it as a staging base or factory.

Leave planet mining as a game option that could be a switch for the server masters to control, that way those who want it can and those who don't can turn it off. If over the course of the development nearly everyone turns it off then maybe consider removing it.

 

[Ithirahad]

Asteroids do not respawn, (they used to though), however, a planet should ideally not respawn, I suppose, seeing as with the option of mantle extractors, as long as planets do not respawn, mining a planet by hand (Or with some kind of drill/quarry/thing) vs. core mining would be a quick cash vs. lasting investment sort of thing... Choices like that are great in a sandbox game.

 

[LunaIsBestPony]

 

[Crimson-Artist]

This is dumb. This is incredibly dumb. This is so dumb, in fact, that it really really needs to change. >.>
This kind of progression just seems incredibly shallow and causes a lot of technical problems - the bigger something is, the harder it will be on people's computing hardware.

Well it works for Minecraft and we're Minecraft in space. I don't see the problem here.

If this could be replaced by expansion of influence, upgrading of technology, and other more interesting mechanics, that'd be great.

a long time ago the devs were talking about tiered systems like Lvl 2 Power Reactor Modules or Lvl 3 Shield Capacacitors. That might still happen or maybe not who knows. If resource placement was reworked and recipes changed then the factory tiers could be a kind of progression system (Basic factory=Early game, Standard Factory=Mid-game, and Advanced Factory=Late game). It sorta is atm but not really.