Game Balance approved suggestions for 18th Dec release

[Lancake]

These are all the changes that were approved, including details. You're free to discuss this as long as you stay friendly. Use the "agree" rating so this thread doesn't get cluttered by 10 posts of the same opinion. If something we've applied gets too much discussion, it will be taken out for the next release.

• Reduce offline faction member FP gain
  - Used to be 20 points for offline members (under 48 hours), now it's 10.
  
  
• Increase free rail mass and rail mass/enhancer
  - We approve this, but we're not sure what to do with it for now. Free rail mass seems fine but the mass enhanced per block (which is 5) could be increased a little to make it work better for things like on rail heavy blast doors. Currently we're looking to put this to 7.5 or 10 but most likely we'll just post phone it for next release, unless we get enough feedback in this thread.
  
  
• Decouple armor color from resource cost
  - We've introduced 2 new crafting blocks: Standard hardener and Advanced hardener.
  Standard hardener requires 5 fertikeen capsules + 10 meshes
  Advanced hardener requires 4 fertikeen ingots + 20 meshes
  To make any standard armor, you require its basic hull block + 1 standard hardener
  To make any advanced armor, you require standard armor + 1 advanced hardener
  
  
• Use metal meshes in more crafting recipes (like hull)
  - There's a giant amount of surplus meshes (and composites in most cases) for every ship you construct. Hull requires a bit more meshes now (see hardeners) but that's still not enough. We require to increase the mesh costs on a lot more blocks but this takes time and research. Only hull is a bit more expensive now, other things will follow but not for this release.
  
  
• new players start with more blocks
  - More cheap blocks to start with: cheap hull, more spare ship cores, more thrust and power blocks and that's it
  
  
• lower faction mining bonus but increase default ore/crystal yield
  - A new faction config variable has been added to increase ore yield for everything unowned. This way you can still increase the base yield without having to put something like 60x on faction owned territory. Not a huge change since it doesn't change anything for factions, but it makes the gap between faction territory bonus and unowned systems smaller.

Dev-Build related changes:

We've finalized volume changes and adjusted cargo values to fit our philosophy. Several ships have been checked and we've found a good value for cargo ships. We're assuming that cargo ships have about 30% of their blocks as cargo spaces. Then we buffed the ship to have some shields, and to fit as much power/thrust needed.

First of all, we also changed volume:
- Hull and other functional blocks are all 0.1 volume
- Decoration blocks (with exceptions) are 0.05 volume
- Unrefined ores (and some other blocks) are 0.01 volume, refined materials such as capsules are 0.001 volume
- Useless blocks like terrain ones are 0.001 too

Compared to some real bases, this effectively decrease the needed volume by 10x!

Now to go back to the cargo values. A fully filled cargo ship (30% cargo spaces, most of the rest is power + thrust) should weigh about 3-4 times more than if it were empty. Each filled ship can hold enough finished blocks to construct its own ship 25-50 times.

If we follow that, we get the next cargo values:
Cargo added per block: 100 -> 25
Extra mass added per used volume: 0.1 -> 0.05

 

[Ithirahad]

Perhaps unrefined ores should be 0.015 volume, so there's some incentive to get the stuff refined as fast as possible. As I'd said in Slack, what's being mined isn't pure mineral and crystal... For instance, if you mine Sertise, it's probably mostly Larimar and "Sertisite" rocks which have to be filtered out by the capsule refinery, along with various impurities. Plus, chunks of rock don't pack as nicely as little tubes of compacted stuff...

Other than that, all of this looks good. Some might find this cargo buff to be excessive, though.

 

[Lancake]

I also forgot to mention that I tracked down the issue with asteroid spawning. Tomorrow's release will have all asteroids spawn with a similar chance, no exceptions.
[DOUBLEPOST=1450356359,1450356269][/DOUBLEPOST]

Perhaps unrefined ores should be 0.015 volume, so there's some incentive to get the stuff refined as fast as possible. As I'd said in Slack, what's being mined isn't pure mineral and crystal... For instance, if you mine Sertise, it's probably mostly Larimar and "Sertisite" rocks which have to be filtered out by the capsule refinery, along with various impurities. Plus, chunks of rock don't pack as nicely as little tubes of compacted stuff...

Other than that, all of this looks good. Some might find this cargo buff to be excessive, though.

Minerals such as larimar have the same weight as raw ores and shards (0.01 volume).

 

[Ithirahad]

Minerals such as larimar have the same weight as raw ores and shards (0.01 volume).

Yeah; I was saying that perhaps it should be a little more than the same...

 

[Lancake]

Yeah; I was saying that perhaps it should be a little more than the same...

hm yes, about 6 times heavier. The mineral capsules aren't worth much compared to the ores and shards though so should they really become heavier so it's more accurate?

 

[Phocian]

To quote: "
Reduce offline faction member FP gain
- Used to be 20 points for offline members (under 48 hours), now it's 10."

Why now, please explain this ?
I say this as its impossible to recruit players to your faction with the current mechanics for the reasons that many posts regarding factions have made.
Please give us the tools so we can add members to our factions safely, all this does is punish the players that have expanded, built out into other systems out of boredom and the need for something to do.

 

[Lancake]

To quote: "
Reduce offline faction member FP gain
- Used to be 20 points for offline members (under 48 hours), now it's 10."

Why now, please explain this ?
I say this as its impossible to recruit players to your faction with the current mechanics for the reasons that many posts regarding factions have made.
Please give us the tools so we can add members to our factions safely, all this does is punish the players that have expanded, built out into other systems out of boredom and the need for something to do.

Well we can leave it untouched. In this case it wouldn't matter too much since the whole system will be reworked at some point.

And why now? well someone brought it up and the council discussed about it. It's also possible to decrease the time an offline member makes you gain 20 points per hour. From 48 to 36 for example.

 

[Valck]

Each filled ship can hold enough finished blocks to construct its own ship 25-50 times.

Sorry, but twenty-five to fifty times? While an improvement, that's still ridiculous in my eyes. If 30% of that ship is cargo, then I'd call it plenty if the same ship can be constructed once or maybe twice from that cargo.
But I guess whatever floats the boats of the majority, as long as there is an option to override the defaults...

 

[Phocian]

Well we can leave it untouched. In this case it wouldn't matter too much since the whole system will be reworked at some point.

And why now? well someone brought it up and the council discussed about it. It's also possible to decrease the time an offline member makes you gain 20 points per hour. From 48 to 36 for example.

I would request that no penalties are added to the current faction system, points until the faction system receives its overhaul.
The current system is a major roadblock to improving the multiplayer aspect of the game.

 

[Lancake]

Sorry, but twenty-five to fifty times? While an improvement, that's still ridiculous in my eyes. If 30% of that ship is cargo, then I'd call it plenty if the same ship can be constructed once or maybe twice from that cargo.
But I guess whatever floats the boats of the majority, as long as there is an option to override the defaults...

You can always override any change we do. The thing is that even now people are complaining about cargo spaces not adding enough volume. Is that because we've always spoiled players with infinite space? Or is that because it really offers not enough volume for gameplay purposes?
Keep in mind that the cargo limits are disabled in this release, tomorrow you'll not be able to go over capacity.

You're leaning towards 1 volume added per cargo block. That's a good number for roleplay but I'm not sure if everyone wants that. This would require too much micromanagement for bigger factory complexes, and probably a lot of blocks for your homebase. If you want this, then you can just change it in the blockbehaviorconfig (use the custom one).

I would request that no penalties are added to the current faction system, points until the faction system receives its overhaul.
The current system is a major roadblock to improving the multiplayer aspect of the game.

Agreed.

 

[Ithirahad]

I think what we need is a station-only hypercompact storage block, and a nerf to ship cargo capacity. Or... something.

 

[BDLS]

I think I might be the only one who liked the default cargo values. You SHOULD need a ton of empty space to store a few planet's worth of materials. But I suppose it makes sense to be able to put more light rods in the same space as an armor block.

Rest of the changes are good though. Default materials buff is good.

 

[Valck]

The thing is that even now people are complaining about cargo spaces not adding enough volume. Is that because we've always spoiled players with infinite space?

I'm inclined to say yes, "taking away" stuff is usually perceived as a bad thing.

You're leaning towards 1 volume added per cargo block. That's a good number for roleplay but I'm not sure if everyone wants that.

I'm fine with that, I just think players don't necessarily always know what's best for them ;)

I'm curious how the cargo "content" will play out in the long run - I doubt there will be much need for any freight enterprises besides the Trading Guild; which I personally think is a pity.

 

[Ithirahad]

Once there are legitimate reasons to carry large amounts of stuff from place to place, cargo will become a legitimate thing...

 

[Valck]

Once there are legitimate reasons to carry large amounts of stuff from place to place, cargo will become a legitimate thing...

Maybe, also no values are set in stone until release.

 

[Lancake]

For now, cargo is just a system you'll get time to get used to. Cargo is important for future mechanics that will form the bigger picture.

 

[Master_Artificer]

I like that the Ores and Shards will weigh more (I think I read that somewhere).
A 0.01 mass Ore making ten 0.01 mass alloys and six 0.01 mass capsules... was intriguing.

But I dismissed it as space magic, like how we were able to carry around battleships in our pockets.
Now... things have changed :P

 

[GRHayes]

These are all the changes that were approved, including details. You're free to discuss this as long as you stay friendly. Use the "agree" rating so this thread doesn't get cluttered by 10 posts of the same opinion. If something we've applied gets too much discussion, it will be taken out for the next release.

• Reduce offline faction member FP gain
  - Used to be 20 points for offline members (under 48 hours), now it's 10.
  
  
• Increase free rail mass and rail mass/enhancer
  - We approve this, but we're not sure what to do with it for now. Free rail mass seems fine but the mass enhanced per block (which is 5) could be increased a little to make it work better for things like on rail heavy blast doors. Currently we're looking to put this to 7.5 or 10 but most likely we'll just post phone it for next release, unless we get enough feedback in this thread.
  
  
• Decouple armor color from resource cost
  - We've introduced 2 new crafting blocks: Standard hardener and Advanced hardener.
  Standard hardener requires 5 fertikeen capsules + 10 meshes
  Advanced hardener requires 4 fertikeen ingots + 20 meshes
  To make any standard armor, you require its basic hull block + 1 standard hardener
  To make any advanced armor, you require standard armor + 1 advanced hardener
  
  
• Use metal meshes in more crafting recipes (like hull)
  - There's a giant amount of surplus meshes (and composites in most cases) for every ship you construct. Hull requires a bit more meshes now (see hardeners) but that's still not enough. We require to increase the mesh costs on a lot more blocks but this takes time and research. Only hull is a bit more expensive now, other things will follow but not for this release.
  
  
• new players start with more blocks
  - More cheap blocks to start with: cheap hull, more spare ship cores, more thrust and power blocks and that's it
  
  
• lower faction mining bonus but increase default ore/crystal yield
  - A new faction config variable has been added to increase ore yield for everything unowned. This way you can still increase the base yield without having to put something like 60x on faction owned territory. Not a huge change since it doesn't change anything for factions, but it makes the gap between faction territory bonus and unowned systems smaller.

Dev-Build related changes:

We've finalized volume changes and adjusted cargo values to fit our philosophy. Several ships have been checked and we've found a good value for cargo ships. We're assuming that cargo ships have about 30% of their blocks as cargo spaces. Then we buffed the ship to have some shields, and to fit as much power/thrust needed.

First of all, we also changed volume:
- Hull and other functional blocks are all 0.1 volume
- Decoration blocks (with exceptions) are 0.05 volume
- Unrefined ores (and some other blocks) are 0.01 volume, refined materials such as capsules are 0.001 volume
- Useless blocks like terrain ones are 0.001 too

Compared to some real bases, this effectively decrease the needed volume by 10x!

Now to go back to the cargo values. A fully filled cargo ship (30% cargo spaces, most of the rest is power + thrust) should weigh about 3-4 times more than if it were empty. Each filled ship can hold enough finished blocks to construct its own ship 25-50 times.

If we follow that, we get the next cargo values:
Cargo added per block: 100 -> 25
Extra mass added per used volume: 0.1 -> 0.05

I'm wondering are hull and all other armors going to be the same? Currently they aren't.
3-4 times as much as if it was empty would be a awesome compared to current.
The two ships below probably fit well into this discussion. The grey ship is right at 30% of space dedicated to cargo.
Its volume though is half that of the white ship. Its cargo volume is closer to 50% at 2.6 Million cargo volume.
Its large enough I can do a shift click on creative mode and dump a full stack of Multi hull in there with 9,999,999 in each item.
However when I do that the mass of that cargo container goes from 1170 approx to 251,000. Its is worse for standard and advanced armor
Both of those end up to large at 278% cargo volume or 750,000 mass and 464% cargo volume 1.2 million mass.
So you can imagine the current results even with larger engines than normally required for such size of ship you have basically a space slug.

But just to make sure I have this right. You said 3 to 4 times as if they are empty. So assuming cargo container empty ways 0.1, then a full
container should way 0.3 to 0.4 not like currently where they way 10.0 when full.

 

[Lancake]

I'm wondering are hull and all other armors going to be the same? Currently they aren't.
3-4 times as much as if it was empty would be a awesome compared to current.
The two ships below probably fit well into this discussion. The grey ship is right at 30% of space dedicated to cargo.
Its volume though is half that of the white ship. Its cargo volume is closer to 50% at 2.6 Million cargo volume.
Its large enough I can do a shift click on creative mode and dump a full stack of Multi hull in there with 9,999,999 in each item.
However when I do that the mass of that cargo container goes from 1170 approx to 251,000. Its is worse for standard and advanced armor
Both of those end up to large at 278% cargo volume or 750,000 mass and 464% cargo volume 1.2 million mass.
So you can imagine the current results even with larger engines than normally required for such size of ship you have basically a space slug.

But just to make sure I have this right. You said 3 to 4 times as if they are empty. So assuming cargo container empty ways 0.1, then a full
container should way 0.3 to 0.4 not like currently where they way 10.0 when full.

In your release, each cargo space gives you 4 times more volume. And each volume adds double mass than it does in the dev builds. This makes everything you use about 8 times heavier than what it is going to be. If you ignore the block volume changes at least.

 

[GRHayes]

In your release, each cargo space gives you 4 times more volume. And each volume adds double mass than it does in the dev builds. This makes everything you use about 8 times heavier than what it is going to be. If you ignore the block volume changes at least.

At least that would make them flyable with cargo. Right now when full they are near stationary rocks.
250,000/8 = 31250 is a good mass increase pretty much doubling the ships current mass. It won't set speed records but at least they move.

Thanks for the info.